Router bit destroying my wood! Help!

[Michael Donahue]

Hey folks. I'm working on some rail and stile doors and I'm having a rough time getting decent results! The set I'm using is from Rockler and has only been used on one other project so far where I had no problems at all (made 8 doors from poplar). Also, my router is a Dewalt 2 1/4 HP. The first few cuts were fairly clean, but the last few attempts look like the piece in the picture. I'm not sure what to do and I really don't want to burn up too much wood hoping this gets better.

Is there something I can do? Are there things I should check? I could clean up the but some but I really didn't think it looked that bad :confused:

[Sean Rainaldi]

Are you running these on a table or a hand held router? What size bit are you using?

I've run some pieces of hard maple on my table and they run fine, then two minutes later I ran same species of wood that had been laying around my garage for months, same bit, same everything, but the wood got tore up. I was thinking it could be a moisture content problem.

[Chris Kerkstra]

Are you trying to take it all off with one pass or a little at a time?

[Prashun Patel]

Are you making multiple shallow passes? That usually alleviates the big chip outs.

Also, use backers at the ends to avoid tearing out the e-grain.

[Michael Donahue]

The router is mounted in a table. I'd be way to nervous to try these cuts by hand.

I was able to do these cuts in one pass on the poplar I used on my last project, but I could see how a few passes might be better on oak. I'll give that a shot. Any other suggestions are welcome! Thanks!

[Dewey Torres]

Mike,
Your problem is that you tried it first on poplar. That looks to me like red oak. TWO DIFFERENT MONSTERS. With oak of any kind it will chip if shearing against the grain, if the pass is too heavy, or if it is a full moon, (sometime even when it is a half moon).

[Jason Beam]

I think those poplar doors you did have given you a false sense of success :D :D :D :D

Little bites when possible is ALWAYS prefered. You got lucky with that poplar, I think. The grain direction is going to be a big factor in how severe the tearout gets, too.

[Gene Howe]

My Rockler bits are gathering dust.They dull too quickly, IMO. :(
I bought a set of diamond hones from HF and use to have to leave them out close by when using the Rockler bits. I'd recommend getting a set of hones if you don't want to upgrade your bits.:)

[Mike Newell]

I had the same problem when I used a lessor quality bit(woodline). In poplar they were fine, but in oak the results were the same as yours. I now have a CMT set. One pass, no chipout. If you can, invest in a high quality bit set, I'm glad I did.

Mike

[Fred Voorhees]

I think those poplar doors you did have given you a false sense of success :D :D :D :D

Little bites when possible is ALWAYS prefered. You got lucky with that poplar, I think. The grain direction is going to be a big factor in how severe the tearout gets, too.

Yup, I was thinking the same thing as far as grain direction.

[Ed Hazel]

I always had problems with tear out until I read this http://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/ToolTestRouterBits.pdf article on router bits in Fine Woodworking Mag I have been using Eagle and Whiteside bits ever since life is much better.

[Burt Waddell]

It looks to me like it is poor quality wood. Some oak just does that.

Sharp bits help. Check to make sure your bits are clean - no buildup on them. Soft wood especially can cause buildup on the bits.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Nope...it's the bits...had the same thing happen with my red oak doors and the same bits. They dull very quickly. Get a good set and they'll come out much better.

[Joe Chritz]

Two methods that work for me that you could use.

First take a light pass, then take all but the last 1/32nd- 1/16th then finish pass. Some woods are a bugger for chip out, oak is one of them.

Second, mill your stock a tad wide (1/16th or so) and take a big pass on the router. Rip it to final width (obviously the side you just routed) and then do a finish pass on the router.

A few other things is to make sure the bit isn't dead dull and be sure the spindle speed is close to correct for the feed rate. You can sometimes try to feed your stock with the grain. This help a ton but isn't always possible for some pieces.

For the best way to get chip out free profiles................Shaper, feeder, climb cut. Do not try this without a feeder, I have a nice 3/4x2 21/4 hole in my drywall from where I forgot to reset the feeder and the cutter shot a stile about ten feet and through the drywall.

Joe

[Andrew Joiner]

Look up how to climb cut. It can be DANGEROUS!

DO NOT TRY CLIMB CUTTING WITHOUT PRACTICING WITH VERY LIGHT CUTS FIRST. Try say a 1/8" round over bit first and GRIP THE ROUTER VERY FIRMLY! The router will want to rip out of your hands. It's not for the faint of heart.

It's easier to climb cut safely if you clamp the work down or hold it in a jig,and hand hold the router. Take light cuts.

I climb cut safely on a router table in light cuts with a jig that keeps my hands far from the bit. The jig must give you a good grip and leverage on the work to overcome the pull from the bit.

Most woodworkers would say climb cuts on a router table are NOT safe.

I figured out this method years ago before carbide router bits. Oak was the most popular wood at that time. It was the ONLY way to get consistant chip free edges so I could make a living.

I still climb cut all edge cuts unless it's MDF. Even with good carbide bits the conventional feed direction increases tear out chances. With climb cuts tear out is near zero.
Take the final pass in the conventional feed direction ,but leave the same depth of cut setting as the last climb cut. This will only remove the fuzz and chatter marks.

Oh, yeah and another benefit. It gives you good abs. Yes, it's a good work out for your stomach muscles.

[Kevin Godshall]

It looks to me like you are having to cut into the grain of the wood. This will definitely show chipping like yours in red oak. Take the advice given here already: sharp bits, multiple shallow cuts, instead of trying to hog the material all in one pass, and especially on the last few cuts, watch your rate of feed. Slow and steady wins the race.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt (and the kindling for the woodstove (sigh))

[Lee Schierer]

Look up how to climb cut. It can be DANGEROUS!

DO NOT TRY CLIMB CUTTING WITHOUT PRACTICING WITH VERY LIGHT CUTS FIRST. Try say a 1/8" round over bit first and GRIP THE ROUTER VERY FIRMLY! The router will want to rip out of your hands. It's not for the faint of heart.

It's easier to climb cut safely if you clamp the work down or hold it in a jig,and hand hold the router. Take light cuts.

I climb cut safely on a router table in light cuts with a jig that keeps my hands far from the bit. The jig must give you a good grip and leverage on the work to overcome the pull from the bit.

Most woodworkers would say climb cuts on a router table are NOT safe.

I figured out this method years ago before carbide router bits. Oak was the most popular wood at that time. It was the ONLY way to get consistant chip free edges so I could make a living.

I still climb cut all edge cuts unless it's MDF. Even with good carbide bits the conventional feed direction increases tear out chances. With climb cuts tear out is near zero.
Take the final pass in the conventional feed direction ,but leave the same depth of cut setting as the last climb cut. This will only remove the fuzz and chatter marks.

Oh, yeah and another benefit. It gives you good abs. Yes, it's a good work out for your stomach muscles.


I agree with Andrew. Do at least the first light pass with a climb cut. Oak, particularly red oak with the ends of the grain coming out the side of the board like that shown in the photo will chip out almost every time. It is true that better router bits give better quality cuts, but tearout may still occur where the cutting edge can lift the tips of the grain as it exits the wood.

Climb cutting will press down on these ends and shear them off cleanly. YOU MUST TAKE LIGHT CUTS WHEN CLIMB CUTTING. Once the bit has cut a 1/16-1/9" into the board along all surfaces you can change to standard cutting. Climb cutting is like making a scoring cut on plywood and is done for exactly the same reason.....preventing tear out.

There are some cases where grain reversal is so bad the router bit will rip the wood to pieces when it catches. The feet on the lamps shown in the attached photo could only be made using aa climb cut on one side and a standard cut on the other side of the leg opening and top edges without the wood catching or tearing out badly. I ruined several sets of pieces before I figured it out and I was using a brand new Freud bit. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/ls_endtable.jpg

[Chris Padilla]

It looks to me like you are having to cut into the grain of the wood. This will definitely show chipping like yours in red oak. Take the advice given here already: sharp bits, multiple shallow cuts, instead of trying to hog the material all in one pass, and especially on the last few cuts, watch your rate of feed. Slow and steady wins the race.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt (and the kindling for the woodstove (sigh))

Agree with Kevin: it looks like you are cutting against the grain instead of with the grain. That is likely most of the problem. All the other advice will only improve things. Learn to read the wood and think about how the cutter is cutting into it and you'll start to develope intuition about how to best go about a particular cut.

However, cutting slowly isn't always the answer either because that can lead to burning.

[David Keller NC]

One other thought if you can't get good results with a better quality router bit (this, by the way is a hard lesson to learn, but "cheap" and "good" usually don't go together) and you don't want to try climb-cutting.

Wet the wood with denatured ethanol. This is a trick that works well when planing curly maple, and also works well when routing tough, easily splittable wood (like red oak). You should try this on the last, light cut. What the ethanol does is soften the wood fibers, which makes them easier to cut than to split out.

One other method that's related, but slightly different, is to coat the pieces with a 1.5 lb. cut of shellac. The shellac glues the surface wood fibers together, and helps to prevent splitting. You can also use a diluted solution of yellow glue, though you must wait for this to dry before trying it (the shellac, so long as its mixed up fresh from flakes, will dry almost instantly).

[Michael Donahue]

Thanks for all of the advice folks! I finally got some good cuts today but I had to do several passes with the last one taking off <1/16". I still got a few pieces that chipped pretty bad, but I should be able to cut around the chips for the shorter rail pieces I'll need.

I know that it's good to buy the best bits you can afford, but I got a great deal on this Rockler set and it had great reviews on the web site so I thought I was doing OK. Oh well, you live and you learn I guess.

One thing that I noticed was it could be very difficult to find the right speed to feed the material. It would easily burn if fed to slow and chip if fed too fast even on the final very shallow pass. Is this usually the case with better bits too, or is it another symptom of these Rockler bits?

[Chip Lindley]

Much good advice offered in this Thread! All suggestions will help prevent tearout!

But, Please Oh Please do not confuse advice offered here about climb cutting with small hand-held bits, with attempting to climb cut with any large router bit BY HAND! Small bits/OK (with practice) LARGE BITS/NO NO!! (under any circumstances)

Shallow climb cuts at a router table can succeed if you use very stiff finger boards to help brake the wood as the cutter tries to jerk it on through! Sometimes climb cutting is your only alternative, as in trying to bookmatch stiles from a single board.

Otherwise, pay attention to the orientation of grain, same as you would when jointing or planing a board *with the grain*! Good Luck!

[Rob Cunningham]

Good advice from everyone so far. Another thing that can help, is to make a zero clearance insert for your fence. That way the wood is supported right up to the point of cutting.

[Jim Kountz]

What Dewey said, make sure your grain direction is not against the rotation of the bit, kind of like petting a dog the wrong way. If you have to, flip the boards end for end to make sure the direction is correct. I do this when I lay up all my pieces before shaping them and mark which way I want to run each piece, Saves time while at the router table/shaper.

[David Giles]

Oh, yeah and another benefit. It gives you good abs. Yes, it's a good work out for your stomach muscles.

Climb cutting can make some other muscles pucker up, too!

[Paul Coffin]

I ran into similar problems on a cabinet project a while back, my tearout went away when I added a zero clearance fence to my router table fence that fit the tounge and groove bit I was using. Bill Hylton has written a couple of router books which show how to do this by cutting a strip of 1/4 inch thick MDF roughly the same size as your router table fence. You then drill a hole big enough and at the correct height to clear the bearing on the bit when the mdf is located against the fence. You then clamp one end of the mdf to the fence, flex the mdf away from the bit, turn on the router and slowly rotate the mdf into the spinning bit so that it cuts the zero clearance shape of the bit into the mdf. This eliminated almost all of the tearout that I was seeing, because the wood was fully supported all the way to the bit.

Paul