Chisel Edge Retention Questions

[Rob Luter]

Greetings to all –

Santa brought me a new LN Dovetail Saw for Christmas and I’ve been working hard to produce respectable dovetails. It’s a learning experience to be sure, but there’s plenty of educational content out there to help. I’m pleased to say things are going pretty well. I’ll be posting some results in the next couple of days.

One thing that was brought to light immediately was the shortcomings of my chisels. I have a set of the Irwin/Marples Blue Chips (The English versions) and they don’t hold an edge very long chopping waste in maple and oak. I’m taking really thin cuts and I’ve increased the angle to 35 degrees. Both helped, but the steel just isn’t up to snuff. The edge is crapping out after cleaning out just a few tail sockets. In addition, they’re a bit heavy towards the handle end and a chore to hold while chopping out waste. An old 1/2” Greenlee socket chisel I have works much better both ergonomically and with respect to edge retention, but the size is limiting. I’m thinking a chisel upgrade is next.

FWW had a recent review on chisels and gave high marks to the LN bevel edge chisels, but edge retention was no different than shown for the Irwins (Chinese versions). I like the socket design and the ergos on the LN chisels but I’d hate to spring for them only to find I’m doing just as much sharpening as with my Irwins.

Any Creekers using the LN interested in sharing their opinions on edge retention?

[Randy Klein]

IIRC, the FWW test had the bevel angle at 30 or 25. I have found that I need about a 33 degree bevel for good edge retention.

[Casey Gooding]

I have a set of Irwin chisels I have used for years with no real edge problems. I've done a good bit of heavy chopping with them, as well. I have read that others have had problems, though. They may not be very consistent with their Steel. I used a bandsaw and cut off about an inch from each of the handles. This improved the balance tremendously.
I also have a set of Lie-Nielsen chisels I use primarily for chopping out dovetails. No problems with the edge on them either. They are a great chisel. You won't be disappointed with them.

[willie sobat]

I used the Marples chisels for several years and found their size a little ungainly. Other than that I had no problems with them. I did replace them with original Stanley 750s (the inspiration for the LNs). Those that I kept I re-handled with London pattern handles. I haven't had edge retention problems with either. However, I do like the feel of the Stanleys over the Marples.

[Doug Shepard]

Maybe Irwin changed something since they picked up the Marples chisels but the ones I have lose their edge noticably sooner than my LN chisels. I still use both especially the wider Marples widths (up to 2") that LN doesn't make. I think the LN do a better job on paring cuts. Other than the Marples getting duller a bit faster, I'm not sure I can tell all that much difference for chopping cuts.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've got both LNs and Marples. My LNs retain sharpness longer.

[Ian Gillis]

OP... if you want to buy the LN's, go ahead. You don't need to rationalize. They will be be better -- higher quality, more consistent steel, better balance and feel in hand. I still have a few of Marples blue chisels and I use them all the time, especially the 1 1/2". That chisel has been everything from a paring chisel to a narrow cabinet scraper (and possibly paint can opener). Nope, it doesn't stay sharp as long as some others, but it's a decent piece of steel. Its 3/8" brother is not my first choice for chopping out waste, but I keep it honed and ready so I can put off visiting the honing station a bit longer when I'm doing a job.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't have but one marples blue. Not sure where it is at the moment. I buy a lot of chisels off of eBay. My opinion is with Ian, have a lot of duplicate sizes so when sharpening time comes, there are a lot to sharpen, but while doing some work, there is no reason to stop and sharpen, just pick up the next chisel.

This also allows sharpening some at 15 or 20° for paring and some at 30 or 35° for chopping.

jim

[Mark Singer]

I have the LN's and the Marples blue chip. Many vintage Whetherby and swan OVB, Diamond Stanley .... The Japanese are the best for edge retention IMHO. My Funiharo chisels are really great. I have a few Blue steel that are also good. And the Blue Spruce really stay sharp. What is important is cutting the fibers and not breaking them. So the finished surface is clean and without tear out. On the tail board I save a really sharp chisel for the first tap ...this is what you see ... then I can use almost any thing. A dull chisel will split the wood ..

[Rob Luter]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I may pick up a 3/8" or 1/2" LN and road test it for a while prior to picking up other sizes. I find that my Irwins work well for paring tasks but just can't hold up to the cross grain work. They are fine to start but give up their edge in a hurry.

Jim - I've been on the hunt for decent old chisels for quite some time but not had much luck. I'm a bit leery of Ebay, having mixed results in the past. I can usually find firmers and framing slicks around here but a decent bevel edge like a 750 or an Everlasting doesn't show up often at the places I frequent. When they do they're often priced comparably with the LN product. After all, according to the dealer they are vintage and extremely rare :confused:.

I have found a couple of decent specimens at garage/estate sales. The Greenlee I mentioned above really holds an edge and an ancient looking 1" Everlasting I scored at a flea market has the best edge retention I've ever seen. I'll stay on the hunt and eventually pick up some duplicate sizes so I can keep working if something gets dull.

[David Keller NC]

Rob - I've the set of L-N socket bevel chisels. Mine were some of the first they produced, and up until a few weeks ago when I ground back the edges, I did have problems with edge retention. Once I ground the edges back about an 1/8", they seem to be holding their edge better. I'm not sure if the issues were just a result of early production and a slightly too aggressive tempering process, or I just wound up with a set that's not representative of the norm.

That said, I've no doubt they'd replace them if I called and asked - they're really good about customer service and warranting their tools. The only thing stopping me is the amount of work I put into them in the initial back-flattening - that was a lot of work I don't care to repeat.

I also have a set of the Blue Spruce paring chisels. For a Western tool, these retain their edge better than any I've ever worked with, including cast steel antiques. They're really superb. David Jeske just came out with a set that are designed for chopping, with acrylic-impregnated hard maple handles. The Best Things carries them, though I don't think they're up on their website yet. They also have a complete set of Buck chisels in their original box, and the price has been reduced drastically on them. If I had the funds, that's what I'd buy - the early 20th century Bucks are some of the best out there, and you can use them for a few years, and maybe even make money on them by selling them to a collector at one of the big tool auctions. Not many tools you can say that about.

[Hank Knight]

Rob,

I'm a chisel nut - chiselaholic, if you will. Several years ago I went on Stanely Everalsting binge. I love them. You're right about the edge retention. I have a bunch of 750s and I find the Everlastings hold an edge better than the 750s. BUT, they're heavy. I find that they're great for serious choppng and hogging out material, but not so good for dovetails and other fine work. If you hold them by the blade near the edge for dovetailing like I do, they will wear you out because they are so top heavy.

If you want to stick with Western chisels, I'd look for older Witherbys, Swans, Bergs or Stanley 750s, although I'm not a fan of 750s. They'er lighter and easier to work with than the Everlastings. The Lie-Nielsens are a good alternative to the vintage ones.

I agree with Mark Singer, though, about Japanese chisels. I have several different kinds and they all hold an edge better than any Western chisel I've ever used. And they are generally lighter (depending on the style chisel) and easy to maneuver without tiring you out. I use them almost exclusively now for fine work.

My $.02

Hank

[glenn bradley]

I really use my Marples a lot and don't see the edge problem very often. I bought them as a starter set and do agree on the handle-heavy description. I have pondered cutting down the handles to make butt-chisels out of these and picking up some other bench chisels . . . . Hmmmm.

I work in oak, ash, mahogany, etc. I use a Worksharp so if I ever lose an edge I can restore it with just a couple touches to the wheel. So far I have not been driven to buy additional chisels but for twice the price of my whole set you can get one or two really nice ones ;-)

Chisel performance does seem to be an individual thing; some folks rave about their AI or Two Cherries and some folks have problems with them both. The reviews certainly help but the final satisfaction may be a bit of a quest. Good luck and keep us posted.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

FWW did an interesting article on edge retention an issue or two back. I think the LN came out middle of the road for edge retention. I have the Irwin's and man they just hold stupid in your hands. The two new LN mortice chisels i just bought are just the perfect size and balance for me.

I'm eventually going to replace my irwin's, but i believe i will go for the blue-steel japanese flavor.

[Tim Put]

Has anyone tried these: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JACHYXR7.XX&Category_Code=TBBCND
?

[John Keeton]

Has anyone tried these: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JACHYXR7.XX&Category_Code=TBBCND
?
Tim, I have not used them, and certainly am not an expert on laminated steels. But, this part of the description concerns me "The edge is made of a special alloy high carbon steel that is similar to High Speed Steel. This is laminated to a soft steel back. ....The soft steel back prevents cracking and so you end up with a tough chisel that can take a lot of abuse."

I know that this is a common claim on laminated tools, and maybe it is just me. But on a finely honed edge, one can only have one type of steel. How can that edge be both hard and soft? The support must come very close to the edge, and perhaps if the hard steel was very, very thin - and then backed by the soft steel, this may work.

I can easily see how this may give the overall shank some flexibility to prevent breakage, but I am having trouble with the "edge" concept.

Other comments from those that really know something about this?

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi John,

The soft steel layer is on the top of the chisel. The hard steel layer is on the bottom and makes up the back of the chisel. The cutting edge is entirely in the hard layer of the chisel. The soft layer provides a backing to prevent chipping/cracking of the chisel.

Here's a picture to help illustrate. The dark grey area is the soft steel, the shinier layer is the hard steel.

I think what is a bit confusing is the difference between little chips in the edge, where it might be questionable as to how much the soft steel helps protect that sort of chipping, and more catastrophic chip/breaks, such as the chisel snapping in half, say, 1/2" away from the cutting edge, where it is obvious that the soft layer helps greatly.

But the bottom line is that Japanese chisels do work well, have excellent edge retention, and don't chip as easily as many people might believe. For a real world demo, look at this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83526&highlight=cocobolo+japanese).

[Mark Singer]

My study is not nearly as scientific as Wilbur's. I know if I use 4 chisels equally on dovetailing a few drawers, when I am finished the western chisels need sharpening and the Japanese are good to go back in the cabinet for the next project. There are visible defects to the edge of the western chisels and they are no loner sharp. The Japanese look the same as when I started generally speaking. The Blue Spruce seem to hold an edge really well also.

[John Keeton]

Mark and Wilbur, I value the opinions of each of you. So, with apologies to the OP and others for a temporary hijack, if you were going to purchase a couple of chisels to use to chop out dovetails, what would you buy - both size and brand? It should be said that I will not do the volume of work that either of you do.

Also, Wilbur, thanks for the link - very interesting discussion.

[Mark Roderick]

Another thought. If you cut out most of the waste with a coping saw (or on a band saw), leaving just a sliver of wood, your chisel edge lasts a lot longer.

Even doing it that way, I re-hone my chisels after every dovetail joint.

[Wilbur Pan]

Japanese chisel recommendation for dovetails?

The chisel brand is an easy one for me. Fujihiro brand chisels, made by a blacksmith named Imai, available at Hida Tool (http://www.hidatool.com/shop/shop.html). (They have a slightly weird website setup, so it's hard to link directly to the chisel page, but it's not too hard to find.) That's the same brand of chisel that I used on that cocobolo and white oak. They are about $50 a piece, which is the same price as Lie-Nielsen bench chisels.

Size is a little more problematic, because that really depends on the size of dovetails that you like making. But 6 mm and 9 mm (1/4" and 3/8") probably covers a lot of ground here.

[Mark Singer]

I have the Funiharos as well and they are excellent! I space pins apart sometimes 1 1/2" or more which means you need a set. I have a set of 10. This way you can reach between pins on the tail board wit one chisel and that removes the chance of altering the angle on 1/2 blinds. http://www.hidatool.com/shop/shop.html

The Matsumara are very good and the traingular cross section helps with dovetails

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&dept_id=12781

[John Keeton]

A consensus! Thanks guys, I certainly appreciate the suggestions. I have a set of Pfeil bench chisels that are honed at about 25*. I thought that was a little on the acute side, but that was the factory angle (or close.)

Since this dovetail venture is new, I will try those, along with the two fishtail paring chisels I cobbled together from a couple of old chisels. If I don't get good results - I will own at least a couple of new chisels from those suggested. Mark, I will probably do with a couple for now - the set of 10 is nice, but out of range!

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Mark, have you found there to be a substantial difference between the white and blue steel Japanese chisels? I understand blue to be a bit better - Matsumara are the one's I had my eye on - in bench chisel.

I do have an Iyoroi "dovetail" chisel in 9mm (3/8") and its triangular cross section is fantastic for corners. It's only used for paring (long handle) and it keeps a beautifully sharp edge. A couple swipes across the 1200 and a couple across the 8k and polish the back and she's ready to slice and dice.

[Mark Singer]

Mark, have you found there to be a substantial difference between the white and blue steel Japanese chisels? I understand blue to be a bit better - Matsumara are the one's I had my eye on - in bench chisel.

I do have an Iyoroi "dovetail" chisel in 9mm (3/8") and its triangular cross section is fantastic for corners. It's only used for paring (long handle) and it keeps a beautifully sharp edge. A couple swipes across the 1200 and a couple across the 8k and polish the back and she's ready to slice and dice.

John,
The funiharo's are better in edge retention than the matsumara's. The ridge on the triangle also breaks the waste as you remove waste from the edge. The blue steel are more difficult to sharpen. For white steel is plenty tough. Mostly the results are more dependent on the crafstman and the technique. In time the subleties of the tools are appreciated. I would look at the funiharo's...I really don't have to sharpen them that often ... That is how well the edges hold

[Matt Z Wilson]

I can't tell from the pic how thin the bevels are on the sides of the Funahiros or the Fujihiros...can someone snap a quick pic of the 6mm and 9mm?

[Wilbur Pan]

Here you go. These are the 6 and 9 mm Fujihiros. The ruler has 1/16" marks on it. There is about a 1/16" rise up from the back face of the chisel before it angles in.

Just so you know, the triangular shaped Japanese "dovetail" chisels actually also have this 1/16" rise. The angled-in part is more slanted so that those two faces meet in the middle, and that's what gives it the triangular shape.

However, these chisels do get into corners very well. The 1/16" rise is actually angled in by a degree or so. It's not a true right angle, which makes getting into corners easier than you might think.

Mark, just to clarify, do you have Fujihiro (made by Imai), or Funahiro (made by, um, Funahiro) chisels? The Funihiros are quite a bit more expensive than the Fujihiros.

[Mark Singer]

I have the Fujiharo by Imai with multiple hollows..

Here are some pics

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/mSinger/z_art/japTools/japTools.asp

[Matt Z Wilson]

Thanks Wilbur! One other question, japan-tool has some "dovetail" chisels made by Tasai (among others) that have zero side, the chisel blade is a perfect triangle. Is this over the top from your perspective?

[Randy Klein]

Thanks Wilbur! One other question, japan-tool has some "dovetail" chisels made by Tasai (among others) that have zero side, the chisel blade is a perfect triangle. Is this over the top from your perspective?

While having no experience with that type of chisel, I would think that it would be rather painful to hold.

[Wilbur Pan]

Thanks Wilbur! One other question, japan-tool has some "dovetail" chisels made by Tasai (among others) that have zero side, the chisel blade is a perfect triangle. Is this over the top from your perspective?

Um, maybe. ;)

I haven't yet run into the dovetail where I would need that type of corner on a chisel myself, but then again, the Blue Spruce dovetail chisels have gotten rave reviews for exactly that feature. There are other options: skew chisels and fishtail chisels will also get you into a corner.

If you ever did run into that situation, you could easily grind or file down the side of any chisel yourself to give yourself the profile you need, which is what I would most likely do.

[Marcus Ward]

I bought a set of el cheapo harbor freight chisels ($7 for the whole set!), ground the 1/4" down into a triangle profile, heat treated it, and it's wonderful for cutting out tiny little narrow pin slots between tails. The rest of the set I heat treated properly as well (it's a water quench) and they hold an edge as well as any of my vintage witherby chisels, remaining sharp even after chopping out a lot of dovetails in oak.

Someone once opined that modern chisels are not heat treated to a high degree of hardness because modern "woodworkers" use them to do stupid things like open cans of paint, and a very hard chisel will break in that application. To avoid returns due to user stupidity, irwin and their ilk have been making them a little softer so they last longer under abuse, but making them worthless to real neanderthals like ourselves. Properly heat treating them is pretty easy, so a cheap set can become a wonderful set for someone on a budget. For those of you with high credit limits and large amounts of disposable income, you should buy those blingtastic blue spruce jobs and post pictures so I can drool over them. ;)