Making split nuts / medallions

[Scott MacLEOD2]

I need to make some split nuts and medallion for a saw I'm building. Any suggestions? Websites? Thanks in advance Scott

[Johnny Kleso]

I was making them for three sawmakers at another Message Board but between my bad back and only charging $3.00 each I stopped doing it..

I would make you a few but its too cold for me to finish a few screws on a previous order :( Let alnone take on more work..

Try
Ed Paik
OAKVILLE
ONTARIO
416-217-5885

http://www.medalliontools.com

I think he is paying about $5.00 to have them made local and you should expect him to make a profit for the investment..

I know I told Ed to ask Mike W. for them and Ed is having them made.. So I guess when Mike has to have made 1,000+ x $3-$5 each made wants to crack that nut as few times as he has too..


I wish I was feeling better and could have you out but try Ed..

[Alan DuBoff]

Mike Wenzloff said he would sell split-nuts, contact him through PM on this site or the wenzloffandsons.com website.

[Scott MacLEOD2]

I was making them for three sawmakers at another Message Board but between my bad back and only charging $3.00 each I stopped doing it..

I would make you a few but its too cold for me to finish a few screws on a previous order :( Let alnone take on more work..

Try
Ed Paik
OAKVILLE
ONTARIO
416-217-5885

http://www.medalliontools.com

I think he is paying about $5.00 to have them made local and you should expect him to make a profit for the investment..

I know I told Ed to ask Mike W. for them and Ed is having them made.. So I guess when Mike has to have made 1,000+ x $3-$5 each made wants to crack that nut as few times as he has too..


I wish I was feeling better and could have you out but try Ed..

Johnny: I actually want to MAKE my own, sounds like you may be able to give me some advice as to how to do so. I sold my lathe and mill when I moved about two years ago. But I still have a UNIMAT thats all tooled up.
Any advice, previous posts, websites. Thanks.
Scott

[Bill Houghton]

You might search the messages there.

[Harold Beck]

Leif Hansen has instructions on his site, http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/node/108 (http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/node/108), if you are wanting to make them yourself.

HB

[Matt Edwards]

Scott,

Leif's tutorial on how to make them is excellent! I've made a few for a couple of my saw projects and its a fun and interesting learning experience. Leif has an gift for explaining his talents with pictures and step by step's that even I can understand (no small feat :rolleyes:) Hes a true craftsman and gentleman.

HTH
Matt

[Johnny Kleso]

I make them on a lathe and use a file to make a square near the head..

I'll see if I can find some pics and write up a tutorial..

[Leif Hanson]

I can attest to Johnny's skill at making split nuts... he made many for me, and they were simply excellent! My method is for the poor souls such as myself who don't have the proper machine tools... I'd love to see your methods, Johnny...

[Alan DuBoff]

Johnny: I actually want to MAKE my own, sounds like you may be able to give me some advice as to how to do so. I sold my lathe and mill when I moved about two years ago. But I still have a UNIMAT thats all tooled up.
Any advice, previous posts, websites. Thanks.
Scott
You have a UNIMAT lathe? (Emco, not to be confused with Enco)

Even the real small ones will work fine.

What I do on the lathe is to start with round rod, you can get Alloy 360 brass pretty reasonably at the usual suspect vendors, McMaster-Carr, Enco, MSC, online metals, etc...

I use a 3 jaw chuck, with a cutter that is fairly rounded on the nose. I first dimension it to size, 1/2" is easy to work with, but you can do any size head you have a bit for when you drill the counter bore for the head to inset into the handle for. 1/2", 7/16", 9/16", 5/8", 3/4" will all work. 1/2" looks visually the best for the majority of saws, IMO, but if your making them you can make the head larger and use a small washer on the other side. For ease of explaination, I will use 1/2" diameter.

Bolt
---
take down to diameter on lathe, you can leave a couple thou for a tight fit, but not too much or they will not fit in hardwood. You can get about 10 over in most hardwoods, but let's just say take it down to .500" to make it easy. You will need about 3/4" - 7/8" long of bolt, depending on how thick of a head you use. Now take down to about .250, this will be the section that gets squared that Johnny said he files. I usually leave about 1/8" - 3/16" of length for that. Now take down the rest to .190", this is for a 10-32 thread. I then manually thread it on the lathe, using the tailstock with a drill chuck in it, pushing up against the die holder. If you use a die holder with long handles it will act as a stop and you can manually turn the spindle on the lathe to thread it. I use Tap Magic fluid when I cut the threads.

The head side should have a chamfer on it, but that is not mandatory. That is why I use the large round cutter, I just run it into the end as I'm dimensioning, and leave a soft cove which functions as a taper. The head doesn't need to be too thick, but you need some area that is to diameter so that you can sand it flush after you get it assembled. Part it off on the lathe. You can then take and hold the bolt by the shank in the 3 jaw, clean up the top of the head if you like, but you will sand that so no need to waste time on that, IMO, but I like to get the nib off the center myself. You have the bolt with a flush head on it where you parted it off, a .250" step for the square to hold in the handle, and aprox 3/4" on bolt shank and thread.

I just got myself a collet block set, a square collet block works good for squaring off the .250" section, but you can file as Johnny suggests. With a collet block you can just setup, mill/flip each side for the 4 squares.

Washer
-----
Take down to .500" on lathe. Use a drill chuck with drill for a 10-32 (#21, or .159"). Drill in the dimensioned stock about an inch. Tap it on the lathe manually using a tap and holder, I use the drill chuck to apply tension to the tap by using a springy center tap pin, or the jaws of the chuck. Take just shy of how much you drilled. I use Tap Magic fluid, when I cut the threads.

Chamfer the front edge of the stock, part off the washer.

After you part it off, there will be extra brass to clean up. I then slot the top of the washer with a simple fixture I made using a 1-2-3 block. I use a screw slotting saw, but I like this slot large, my one complaint about Johnny's split-nuts and the ones Mike Wenzloff uses, they have a very narrow slot which requires a very thin driver.

Lastly, I manually thread the washer on the bolt, to ensure the fit is nice.

Johnny,

I know exactly why you don't make these and sell them, there's quite a bit of work into each one of these, and without the proper tooling all setup properly they take time.

Curious how you slotted the washer, maybe you used a hack saw blade or similar, or a small tiny mill in your drill press.

This picture shows how the washer looks after being parted off, as well as the bolt, without the square sectioned milled square yet. The head and washer are pretty thick compared to many, these are strong split-nuts, the head could even be a tad thinner.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99504&d=1225057834

This pic is how I slot the top, I put that in a vise and mill the slot on a horizontal mill. Notice one with a larger head, but a small washer, as I suggested above.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=100110&d=1225694565

HTH, if you have any Qs, please ask away. I'm not a great metalworker, and struggle with this aspect of saw making, but it is getting easier and cleaner.

You notice I didn't offer to make you any split-nuts, or anyone else. Nobody can afford to have me make them split-nuts...I'm lucky to make my own...:o

[Johnny Kleso]

OK here is a verbal tutorial..

I start with 1/2 or 9/16" 360 brass rod from enco because of free shipping on orders over $50

I turn .185 dia. .800 to .900 long depending on customer..
I then turn a .385 dia. .150 long

I then take a 10" mill basdard file that is belt sanded smooth on one of the wide sides..

I then use the short side of the file with the safe (smooth) side rubbing against the shoulder to file a flat..

Using one of the three chuch jaws I then visually index the chuck four times filing the flat almost even with the .185 dia.. That makes a square like a carrage bolt..

I then use a 1" Die Holder with a 1/2" shank in he tail stock drill chuck and thread the 10-32 threads...

I have a 15*-20* angle on a .100 wide parting tool and chamfer the 1/2" dia and then part it off clean .100 wide giving a 1.050 or 1.150 long screw..


For nut I use a Forming tap not a cutting tap.. If it was a bolt they would calling it Rolling the threads which are stronger than cut..


So I use the correct drill and drill a few inchs deep and chamfer and part off washers ..

I then use a home made Pot Chuck which is a piece of 1" brass counter bored to if the washers Last......

I first drill a 1/4" hole 1" deep into face.. I then drill and tap 5/16-18 hole 1 1/2" back from face going across the diameter then using a hack saw split the stock in 1/2 so when I tighten screw to tighens on the 1" dia.

Last I counter bore face for washer.. I how have a split Pot Chuck..

I now tap all the holes ..

If Unimat sells Emergency Collect (soft steel not harded) you can just counter bore a collect..

I then use the Pot Chuch in a drill press vise with a slitting saw and a 1/2 saw arbor to mill slots with a X-Y table on my DP

Any questions feel free to ask..

Please dont post this how to or link to this Post, it is for SMC members only..

This goes aganist what I learned from Karl Holtey not to tech people how to making selling your wares hard for your self.. Keep your hard earned methods to yourself....

[Alan DuBoff]

This goes aganist what I learned from Karl Holtey not to tech people how to making selling your wares hard for your self.. Keep your hard earned methods to yourself....
Maybe so, but I don't believe that. In fact, Mike Wenzloff has been more helpful than anyone else when I started to make saws. Mike has helped folks and even offers to sell people split-nuts.

The above process is not a cost effective way of making split-nuts when you can have them cast at a reasonable price.

I loose some respect for Karl Holtey, knowing that he wouldn't share ideas or thoughts with other makers. I myself, am more like Mike Wenzloff in that regard, I have shared the entire process of making a saw the way I do.

Knowing how to make saws or the parts to make a saw, is only half the puzzle...the other half is actually doing it. That is something that can't be explained easily, everyone needs to go through it themselves, IMO, and sort it out. The web was created to collaborate and share, it's hard to change the ethics of the web just to protect one's financial interest.

[Scott MacLEOD2]

Thanks Alan and Johnny, thats perfect.
Yes its an emco a little UNIMAT SL, works like a charm. I wont be using it to make any panel planes. But maybe for a little shoulder or chariot (possible next project).

Alan, I cant get your pictures to open. Is it me or the program.

Thanks to all
Scott

[Alan DuBoff]

Thanks Alan and Johnny, thats perfect.
Yes its an emco a little UNIMAT SL, works like a charm. I wont be using it to make any panel planes. But maybe for a little shoulder or chariot (possible next project).
Those are pretty nice little machines. Certainly capable of making a split-nut.

Alan, I cant get your pictures to open. Is it me or the program.
The only thing I can think of is if your browser is blocking images from SMC or something. Those pics reside on SMC already, and I just placed them in the post. Check your preferences in your browser. If using Firefox, try Edit->Preferences->Content, make sure the "Load Images Automatically" is checked and that SMC is not listed in Exceptions.

[Scott MacLEOD2]

Thanks for all of the info Alan and Johnny. With what you have posted I should be able to take it from here. Also Lief thanks for your site, it helps a lot.

BUT if anyone has any other links please let me know.

Scott

[Johnny Kleso]

Alan,
Like I said I was guessing.......

I told two or three saw makers Lief, Tim and Ed to ask Mike if he would sell they saw screws when I was unable to fill orders a year or two ago and since seen Tim making his own using Lief's method and Ed telling me he gets them made local......

I would think if everyone working as a Guild would buy from Mike would make Mike's price lower...

I did not ask why they did not buy from Mike I just guessed he did't want to sell them..

I can think of several other reasons but they are all a "Guess"

As far as what Karl thinks, he is the TOP DAWG and entital to his opinion..... I have emailed many makers asking questions and about 50% never replied and only 25% replied to questions...

[Alan DuBoff]

Johnny,

Mike mentioned on SMC that he would sell split-nuts to folks that wanted to buy them. He has them made locally, like Ed. I have never looked into getting them made locally, was always more fascinated in making them myself for some reason, and making them out of bronze of course.

Karl Holtey is certainly entitled to his opinion on toolmaking, he makes top notch tools, no question.

Honestly, I admire MikeW and sons much more, because they don't need $100,000 worth of machinery to make great saws. That speaks for itself, IMO. The best craftsmen don't need the fancy tools and can produce great work. Even my metalworking tools dwarf what Mike uses, but Mike's tools speak for themselves. :) Also, Mike is not secretive about his techniques and more than willing to share with others. Doesn't sound like Karl has that same collaborative mindset.:(

[Johnny Kleso]

Doesn't sound like Karl has that same collaborative mindset.:(

Maybe becase Karl has $100,000 invested in his shop :)

He is by far The Best Plane Maker period and there are dozens of other maker trying to dethrone him....

Just like some aunt that doesnt share her special cake recipe Karl doesnt share his...

Thats what helps make it special!

[Alan DuBoff]

Just like some aunt that doesnt share her special cake recipe Karl doesnt share his...

Thats what helps make it special!
Sure, and folks like Philip Marcou do share some of their ingredients here, as a case in point. I wouldn't say Philip shares his recipe, but he certainly has shared some of his ingredients. I rather respect him for that, this is a collaborative media.

Stradivarius shared his recipe, but it didn't make the violins of other makers as good as his.;)

[Johnny Kleso]

If he shared why are they still trying to fine out why his violins sound better than others 400+ year latter :p

[Alan DuBoff]

If he shared why are they still trying to fine out why his violins sound better than others 400+ year latter :p
All of his were not good, and he made many more instruments than violins. However, several of his students and/or disciples have made excellent instruments. It is not as if his were the only good instruments.

Most of the letters and documentation inside the Stradivarius museum would suggest that he was a very generous, sharing, and humble person.

To think that Stradivarius made the only top notch instruments is a misnomer. Several of the other great violin makers studied with him, and made great instruments as well, and all of them continued to pass on those techniques to future generations. We can build a better violin today, doesn't necessarily sound better as noted, but fine instruments. Stradivarius nailed the necks on the bodies. In those days it was strong enough for the strings musicians used. You couldn't build a violin today that duplicated Stradivarius and be as good as other makers...think about that. Also not to mention that most all of Stradivarius instruments have had to be rebuilt with modern conventions. ;)