Broken G0634 after 20 bdft

[dan lemkin]

I have had a horrible string of luck / problems with my recent Grizzly purchases. Several are shipping/freight damage issues. But some are not.

Purchased 0634 in early December. Broken free of crate restraints, and table had shifted through side wall. Came with several bent parts. Some of which were due to damage, some due to poor quality control. Talked with tech support which sent me out wrong part. I have been struggling to get the right parts shipped. Everyone has been very pleasant... but I still don't have the parts I need.

The unit came with a large dent in the planer feed roller (yellow poly friction band) which caused a knocking with every rotation. Came with a set screw that didn't lock the cutter head pulley in place. Came with a fence post that would not lock.

I was planing a few pieces of cherry and maple today. Taking off 1/16". Heard loud noise and failure of feed rollers. Took off the cover to find:

1) A bar that applies pressure to the feed chain had broken in half. The bolt that it was attached to, sheared in half, with a portion of bolt still in frame.
2) the yellow friction feed roller pulley slid out of place on its mounting bar/bolt.

Second machine: G0548 2hp DC

1) Came with air filter box soaked with oil/gasoline (replacement sent promptly)

Third Machine 1.5 hp Shaper 1035?
Came with two fence screws bent so adjustment is nearly impossible
(replacements shipped 2nd day)

I realize stuff happens and that freight companies are responsible for some of this. I am just really frustrated and amazed at number of issues and problems I am having. This is not a complaint about Grizzly's service or policies. I am just really disappointed and frustrated by all the hassle and delays these issues have caused. I have spent days addressing repairs for new machines. For $2400 I had hoped for a bit more robustness.

As it is Sunday I have not had a chance to hear grizzly's response... but I am not sure i am able to rebuild the mechanics of this machine. The pieces were laying in a pile inside, so I have no frame of reference for reassembly. I am even less enthused about having to re-crate this machine for exchange. Seeing as the crate was destroyed enroute to me and turned into firewood since.

If Shiraz is surfing, any help and advice would be appreciated.
Some of the orders #3628651,#3636452, #5263445,#5284716,#3643481

[Lee Hingle]

Dan,
I can't help you specifically with your problems, but if the machines need to be returned for an exchange, then Grizzly will likely send out your new unit and then you can put the damaged unit into the new unit's crate. That was what I read they did with another damaged machine for a customer.

Good luck, and I hope Shiraz sees your post.

Lee

[Greg Cuetara]

Dan,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. I guess I am glad that someone else out there has the same troubles that I do. It doesn't make it right though.

One machine it happens. Two machines bad on them. Any more than that and they need to do more than just replace the machines. Are these machines in a basement or easily accessed? I would not think you should be trying to fix these but I have never had new machines break on me before.

Greg

[Don Bullock]

Dan, I'm very sorry to hear of your problems. Shiraz Balolia is a contributer to Sawmill Creek. If you search the membership list you can send him a PM about your problem. From the posts that I have read from Mr. Balolia he seems to be genuinely interested in helping other woodworkers. Good luck and keep us posted.

[dan lemkin]

Talked with tech support...

They told me that they could not ship me out a replacement until I returned the broken one due to the cost of the machine.... That is kinda ridiculous, and impractical... (again, as I have no crate/pallet to put it on)

So, I am trying the rebuild at home option... and hoping they have all the parts... waiting to hear back on that front.

Still frustrated and a tad annoyed.:(

[Chuck Wintle]

Talked with tech support...

They told me that they could not ship me out a replacement until I returned the broken one due to the cost of the machine.... That is kinda ridiculous, and impractical... (again, as I have no crate/pallet to put it on)

So, I am trying the rebuild at home option... and hoping they have all the parts... waiting to hear back on that front.

Still frustrated and a tad annoyed.:(

I would crate the machine and send it even if it is a hassle. Ask around at some companies for a used pallet as they usually just throw them in the dumpster. JMO

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Dan,

Maybe they would send a new one out if you give them a credit card number as collateral, so-to-speak.

Once you return the old one in the new one's undamaged box, they could refund you.

Another option - lots of businesses have pallets they are getting rid of. I'll be you could track one down somewhere and then build a simple, cheap plywood box around it to send back.
Edit: Yeah, what Charles just wrote. :)

Hang in there.

[John Sanford]

Assuming that you purchased it with a credit card, see if your credit card company has some sort of purchase guarantee or the like. If so, tell them you want to reverse the charges until Grizzly puts a functioning machine in your shop.

Sorry, but even though Grizzly has apparently been polite and courteous, you have a lemon on your hands. Metal pieces breaking :eek: inside of woodworking equipment with multiple sharp whirling blades is a safety hazard of CPSC and ambulance chaser proportions.

[Sean Kinn]

Sorry for your issues. While I do agree that they have a great reputation for customer service, it's still frustrating to have issues with such new machines. Especially when words like "Extreme", "Pro" and "Industrial" are thrown around so much in the catalog. Shipping damage is absolutely a separate issue, but when parts break within a few minutes to hours of use you have to wonder. Maybe this is a result of some hidden shipping damage?

[Steve Clardy]

Find someone with the straping/banding tools, strap it to a pallet and return it.

Lumber yards usually have banding tools

[Richard Wolf]

I think if you stay in contact with Grizzly, they will take care of everything. My friend just purchased their 12" slider, about $5,850. The thing was a mess, it almost looked like someone returned it after starting to put it together, the blade trunnion could not be squared to the table, parts missing, etc. It took a few calls to Tech and some persistence, they didn't have any more 12" saws in stock so they upgraded him to a 14" slider worth about $7,250 at no cost to him. He now has both saw, still packing up the old one to ship back.
The point is, I think if you have real issues, keep at it, Grizzly will do everything they can to get it right, they are very concerned about customer service.

Richard

[Peter Quinn]

Do not rebuild that machine. Send it back. Find or build a crate from something found, not hard to accomplish. Do not give up on Grizzly, do not take no for an answer. This machine has a warranty, no? If it has to be rebuilt on site, they have to send a mechanic familiar with the machine to do the work. Are you a mechanic? I am not and I do NOT rebuild broken machines under warranty period.

This can happen with any machine, steel is good but not perfect. Well. perhaps it is less likely with Felder, or years ago Powermatic, but it can happen. Sucks having it happen to you, I feel that. But stay positive, it will work out.

[Charlie Knauer]

Dan, if you need a pallet or some help packing this back give me a PM. I would be glad to give you a hand. I have acess to pallets and have some rigging eguipment.

Charlie

[Ben West]

Dan,

So sorry to hear about your problems. I bought the exact same equipment as you (sans the shaper) and had just the opposite experience. Everything was packed very well and arrived in pristine condition.

I must admit, although I understand this can and does sometimes happen regardless of the manufacturer, I wouldn't take it well if a $2400 machine arrived in such poor shape.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[Jude Tuliszewski]

Man, that is a bummer :(. I give you props for trying to do the stand up thing :) , but I got'ta tell ya I would be on them pretty hard, especially after all the greenbacks you have sent their way. All I have read tells me they will take care of you but I think you are going to have to let them know you are really unhappy. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Dave Lehnert]

GREAT! Just about the time I think I am going to make my first major Grizzly purchase (0513x2) I read this. Grizzly is alway at the top of my list when making a large tool purchase but I end up buying from a dealer just because of this type of thing. One thing I will say, Grizzly will make it good. They have more than proved that in the past.

Who was the trucking company?

[Keith Outten]

Dan,

Send a Private Message to Shiraz Balolia (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=5851) and let him know about the problems you are having. His track record helping our Members here is excellent.
.

[Alex Shanku]

The problem is that threads like these are not uncommon.

[Jeremy Rayburn]

I bought a G0490x jointer back in December and the first one I recieved was damaged (bent bolts and broken cast iron), it was just in a plywood box. The replacement I got after shipping the other back actually was crated around the plywood box and perfect shape. Not sure why the first tool wasn't sent packaged as well as the second.

[dan lemkin]

Thank you all for your support and advice. I tried to PM Shiraz, but his mailbox is full... so I am copying the message as an open letter in hopes that he sees it. Keith - (if you are able to forward it, and feel this is redundant, feel free to delete it from the thread)
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Hi,

I got the G0634 J/P after much review on this forum and your catalog. It arrived in really poor shape. The machine had broken loose from the pallet and through the side of the crate. Everything was noted on the bill of lading and the driver called in an exception before he left. I even got pictures of the driver leaning over the broken crate. There were a few obviously broken things, like bent levers, and a dust chute.

But since then, it seemed to operate fine. Other than a dented friction drive wheel (yellow one) which thumped, it ran smoothly. Even that got better with time.

A few days ago, I was planing and heard a loud noise. The planer drive wheels failed. I opened the case to find that the bearing/plate that applies tension to one of the chains had broken in half and the bolt holding the yellow friction wheel had also sheared in half. (Pictures are posted in the thread - link above)

I am not sure what to do... Tech support was nice, but not really enthusiastic about a swap, and as the shipping materials were damaged enroute to me, I threw it all away. Without a crate, It is a hassle to round up a pallet and then to have to buy wood to fabricate a crate around this machine.

I agreed to try to fix it here, but I still have concerns...

Is there a manufacturing defect that puts undue stress on these components which will lead it inevitably to fail again? Were other components stressed or damaged, that I could not identify as a result of the significant force which ripped through the plate and bolt?

I have no crane, and the thought of swapping out two machines makes me a bit qweezy... but a nearby creeker has offered to help me if you feel that is the best remedy.

I have had several difficult experiences with recent Grizzly orders - which are detailed in the post. Any advice and help you could offer would be greatly appreciated...

Here are most of my recent order numbers
#3628651
#5263445-5053669
#5263445-5053810
#5273875, web reference #3632427
#5275659-5067775
#5276362-5069310
#3636452
#5284716-5075600
#5284716-5075808
#5263445
1210284 RMA GRIZZLY FOR CANISTER
#3643481
#5304555-5097657
#5304555-5097854
#3644113
#5306798-5100714
Activity Number 153390

thanks
dan lemkin


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Post addendum to reply to other posters in this thread...

I certainly hear the consensus is : don't try to fix a lemon - send it back.... When I agreed to try to fix it, I was simply trying to take the easy road for all, including me. Assuming I am not underestimating how difficult it will be, I could probably replace the parts in 1 hr or so. As long as there is not a lot of tension on the chains and sprockets making alignment difficult in such a cramped space.

The thought of re-crating a machine (3 hrs), waiting around for outgoing and incoming freight (5 hrs + 5 hrs) un-crating machine (1 hr), getting machine off pallet(1 hr) Breaking down and getting rid of pallet at dump (3 hrs) Getting export grease off tables and cutter head (2 hours - sharp blades = moving slowly), aligning tables to cutters, and wiring plug (2 hrs) - all makes me really qweezy. I don't expect Shiraz wants to send a tech to baltimore :confused:

The major counter argument, I detailed in my letter to Shiraz... What if the machine truly is a lemon and is prone to failing, even after the fix... I don't want to have to do this again.

Ironically.... I am getting back into woodworking as a form of relaxation therapy... I work as an emergency doc in an ED dealing with death and mayhem all day. The fact that this is causing more stress than work, is a bit unforunate.

I will wait a few days to see how long it will take to get the parts... and hopefully Shiraz can provide some advice in the mean time. Charlie, I really appreciate your generous offer. If it comes to swapping out machines, I will eagerly accept your help. I promise a huge Alonso Burger and a few beers when we are done :rolleyes:

[Shiraz Balolia]

Hi Doc,

First of all, our apologies for the problem and for the freight damage.

From all the order notes that we have on this transaction, it is clear that the machine should have been replaced due to the severity of the freight damage. The problems you are having is a direct result of freight damage/handling and, while we can continue to replace parts, we have no idea what will transpire down the road.

There was another "hot" parts order that was supposed to leave today, but I stopped it as it will just be a bandaid. Bo will be calling you and arranging a replacement. You may use the packaging from the replacement to send the one you now have back.

Freight damage is a fact of life for all companies, selling all kinds of items. We can Gorilla-proof a crate, but that does not stop some uncaring freight worker from dropping it. There was a post on a thread about a year back where some medical equipment worth $250K was thrown around after a 6 month special order wait. Fortunately, it only amounts to less than 1.5% of our shipments. It is entirely possible that one of the terminals enroute to you has more than its share of uncaring freight workers. I am using that term to be polite as I cannot post how I really feel about those type of freight workers.

Finally, being on a forum is a double edge sword for me. For obvious reasons I cannot monitor every single post all the time. I may be in meetings, out of town, busy running the company, etc.. So I cannot respond to every comment and post. My presence can be helpful to some, but not a solution to all. I get all kinds of PMs from valid problems such as yours to people asking if we have something in stock.

[dan lemkin]

Thank you for your prompt and accommodating response. I talked with Bo, who assured me that the replacement machine will be inspected and tested prior to shipment, and the crate reinforced. He even consented to have the export grease stripped off the cutter head prior to shipment.

While this experience is unfortunate, I appreciate your willingness to make it right. I look forward to testing the new machine, and promise to provide additional feedback to this thread upon resolution of this incident.

P.S. The freight driver was very accommodating upon delivery and made copious notes on the signed bill of lading. I mentioned it to Bo, but UPS should eat this one.

thanks
dan

[glenn bradley]

And Shiraz ROCKS again.

[Don Bullock]

And Shiraz ROCKS again.

You got that right. It's a major consideration for me when I purchase my next major tool.

Thank you Mr. Balolia.

[Rod Sheridan]

And Shiraz ROCKS again.


That's one way of looking at it, however if it were me, the machine would be going back for a full refund and I'd be shopping elsewhere.

When I purchased my General 650 I had a problem with splitter/blade alignment. It turned out to be an error in the manual.

General's response was to offer the services of their service technician free of charge, at an appointment time that was convenient for me.

The tech of course figured out what was wrong, phoned me back and offered to put the splitter on for me, however the problem was simply that the manual had the spacer on the wrong side of the splitter. I thanked him, installed the spacer on the correct side, which solved the problem. That's customer service.

It was the only problem I've ever had with General equipment, and I have a shop full of it.

Last year my Hammer A3-31 was dropped off at my house, no shipping damage, completely adjusted, test run, ready to go and mounted on a pallet that would make a mechanical engineer proud, and no doubt it did since the machine travelled from Austria to Canada without incident.

I find it odd that there are so many threads about problems with Grizzly machines ranging from poor packaging to jointer tables that are out of plane, and yet so many people are so happy when they repair their machines.

It's less than what I would expect, I would expect the problems to be corrected so that they didn't happen in the future.

Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Mohr]

WOW! That statement from Mr. Balolia will keep me coming back to Grizzly. Hope it all works out!

[dan lemkin]

While I agree that the frequency of issues with Grizzly machines appears to be higher, it doesn't seem to be a completely fair comparison. The Hammer ($3,582) and Minimax ($4295) versions on which the G0634 seem to be based are > $1000 more and don't include a spiral cutterhead.

I certainly don't expect to receive a piece of junk for $2400.... but for that extra $$, I would expect more robust packaging, build quality, and service. People have discussed this on many threads... raising issues like quality control, Chinese vs American/Canadian, middleman vs direct sales.

The variance in pricing is multi-factorial I am sure, but the adage... you get what you pay for, comes to mind. The fact that Grizzly can offer a similar machine for such a lower price is useful for those who can't justify greater expense. The fact that they stand behind the defects, whether they be manufacturing, packaging, shipping... I think does mitigate the issue. I still may come to regret this purchase. In this case, the lower price certainly did come with intangible cost of frustration and additional required patience on my part:cool:. The issue for people, including myself to ask, is what is that frustration worth? So far... I am still ahead.

As mentioned, I will follow up on this thread and give feedback about the replacement machines fit, function, (and hopefully not) failures...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dan, I'm in full agreement that you get what you pay for, and I wouldn't expect a Hammer or MiniMax when I purchase a Grizzly.

However the Grizzly is the same weight and design as the Hammer, so it would need the same design criteria for the pallet.

If those photographs were of your planer/jointer on the original pallet, no wonder it's damaged.

The pallet for my Hammer had two outside full 4" X 4" timbers for the main pallet runners, and a 4" steel channel as the middle runner. The surface of the pallet was 1" thick solid lumber forming a continuous surface, and was screwed to the timbers and steel channel.

The jointer/planer was attached to the pallet by removable brackets, bolted into the pallet.

It's the kind of packaging I'd expect for the kind of money you spent on machinery.

Obviously however it must be more cost effective for Grizzly to replace some percentage of their machinery, rather than upgrade their packaging. It's a cost/benefit balance for them, and if their customers are OK with it, it's a good decision on their part.

I sure wouldn't be too happy though.......Good luck, hope it all turns well for you.

Regards, Rod.

[Chip Lindley]

Consider machines shipped during THE Holiday season! There are many temp workers at that time of year who will be laid off after the RUSH. These temps may or may not be to blame for more damage during that time of year.

Maybe a silly suggestion, but wait until the dead of summer when things are slow, and the oldest workers are hoping they won't get laid off. Perhaps you will get LESS freight damage then! (Usually more sales then too!!) hmm....

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Hi Dan, I'm in full agreement that you get what you pay for, and I wouldn't expect a Hammer or MiniMax when I purchase a Grizzly.

I've recently been interested in a new combo. But, the MiniMax is almost twice as much as the Grizzly (or Jet JJP-12). That means that my first Grizzly J/P can be thrown off the truck onto my driveway, backed over a few times, then pushed aside and forgotten. Then, I can order a second machine, hope I don't fall into the 1% failure rate again, and have a lifetime of spare parts to boot. :)

-Jeff :)

[Paul Ryan]

Bang for your buck you cannot beat Grizzly tools. And the post and help from Mr. Balolia proves that Grizzly cares about their customers. I hope this isn't seen as a hi-jack of the thread but I have a story about UPS freight.

When I bought my house years ago I was snooping around in the garage I found a full set of glass for a 1929 pontiac sedan frames and all. After a couple years I decided to sell it. I got an offer and agreed on a price. I decided to use UPS freight to ship it. I packaged it up very good with bubble wrap, air bags, styrofome, and blankets and wrote in multiple places FRAGILE. I insured it for the $300 I had agreed on. When the glass arrived the customer called me imediatly with the UPS guy still there. All 6 pieces of glass had been broken. It was obviouse that the box had been kicked and abused. I fought with UPS for weeks over the price of the glass. They asked what it is worth, I told them it was priceless becuase where are you going to find orignal glass for a 1929 car. I only asked for my freight charges and the $300 so I could refund the money to my customer. Finally after about 3 weeks they settled. But I have never shipped anything with them again.

[dan lemkin]

Can't disagree based on my limited experience...

2 of 2 shipments I got arrived with damage from shipping.

It is a shame.. UPS freight is overnight I believe... I think it was an unwise acquisition on their part. Certainly doesn't live up to the good reputation regular UPS has.

I got another machine from Grizzly by Penn freight as well. It came without a scratch or dent in the cardboard cover.

[John Gornall]

There are so many stories about shipping damage - there must be a solution.

Would you pay more for shipping if you were confident your machine would arrive in perfect condition?

I have lots of experience with shipping machinery and the pallet and crate shown above are certainly not adequate.

It would be great if there was a specific freight service for shipping machines that guaranteed quality delivery. I once found a company that advertised they were experts in shipping high tech equipment - they damaged everything we ever sent with them.

I wonder about a severe service crates and pallets that would be returned for reuse - there would be an extra charge for returning them but perhaps some freight companies might come on board at a good rate if they could take a bit of extra time on the return based on available truck space.

[Rod Sheridan]

There are so many stories about shipping damage - there must be a solution.

Would you pay more for shipping if you were confident your machine would arrive in perfect condition?

I have lots of experience with shipping machinery and the pallet and crate shown above are certainly not adequate.



Hi John, I have paid more each time I purchased machinery, and in my opinion it has been worth it to have it arrive undamaged.

The packaging for the jointer/planer in question was certainly inadequate, and the customer and Grizzly are losing money on those sort of transactions.

Since the customer always pays, people could perhaps be ahead if Grizzly provided more suitable packaging and had less damaged equipment...Rod.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Obviously based on the damage, these machines are being handled roughly. There is absolutely no excuse for this type of handling. I have operated natural gas and gasoline powered fork lifts in plants and on loading docks for a large retailer. It only takes a few seconds longer to get it done right without damaging the goods.

Yes, maybe, the crates could be better.

The important thing is that Papa Bear has been monitoring this site...found this thread and is trying to make it right. I don't have Grizzley in my shop...Oneida..yes......Mini-Max....yes.....but if things go well, there will be heavy Griz green and white in my shop later this year.

[Rod Sheridan]

Obviously based on the damage, these machines are being handled roughly. There is absolutely no excuse for this type of handling. I have operated natural gas and gasoline powered fork lifts in plants and on loading docks for a large retailer. It only takes a few seconds longer to get it done right without damaging the goods.





Hi Ken, I agree that lift truck damage is caused by operators that aren't careful enough, however it looks like the planer broke free of the crate.

In my experience this is due to deceleration in trucks, not lift truck damage.

In this case it looks like the packaging wasn't strong enough to accept the inertia loads of the planer.

I wouldn't blame this one on the lift truck operator.

I wonder how much extra cost is passed onto customers because of poor packaging?


Regards, Rod.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rod,
Why does it matter how much is sent on to the consumer?

The more expensive packaging would be sent on to the consumer.

The only thing that is important is that Grizzley is trying to resolve this particular issue.

Everything else is merely opinion or speculation.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ken, because all the costs of damaged goods make their way back to us.

Grizzly isn't a charity, they expect to make money on their activities.

From the time it takes their customer service people to take the first phone call, the shipping of parts/machines, the repair of returned machines to the last efforts required to close each file, all cost the consumer money.

Having spent 9 years as a manager for an equipment manufacturer, I can tell you that it's a lot more expensive to go through all of the above than to properly crate the item in the first place.

And of course, our customers paid for everything we did.

Regards, Rod.

[Jason Beam]

So for a stated 1.5% incident rate, what would you suggest they spend to bolster their crates? If it's as low as Shiraz says, how do you know that the costs of remedying the infrequent issues are higher than an across-the-board beefing up of crates? If 98.5% of the shipments have no problem, that tells me they're 98.5% adequate. Isn't there a point of diminishing returns?

It sounds an aweful lot like Grizzly bashing, to me. But I don't think it's intentional. I think you're coming from a different perspective and maybe I'm just interpreting it as negativity. But mathematically, a 1.5% incident rate is surely less expensive than what it would cost to beef up 100% of the crates. At some point it will exceed the costs of handling the infrequent issues. Maybe the higher priced tools get better crating because the cost ratio is very different due to that higher price, including possibly bigger margins.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Rod's opinion is similar to others, and his points are one of the main reasons that some of us choose to spend more for different brands, when a Griz would probably work. Some of us are not willing to accept probably.

I really don't want to be the guy that has to deal with the 1.5%. That takes my time, which I value dearly, far more so then the difference in cost on a sure thing machine. Same as anything else, less risk will cost you more.

Nothing against Griz or it's customers, but that business model is not for all of us.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rod,

You are right...but it's just a business decision.

But at this point, you have expressed your opinion...several times....but the important thing is that Dan gets his problem resolved to a reasonable satisfaction.

When companies cut cost to be competitive, something has to give. They may cheapen their products....cheapen the packaging/crating....cut costs through fewer people answering the phones. They are just making business decisions.

I think what should be noted here is that Dan had a problem and Shiraz, the CEO, is trying to resolve it to Dan's satisfaction.

I bought a PM3520B. It isn't a Robust or Oneway or some of the other "top shelf" lathes and I shouldn't and don't expect it to have the fit and finish or reliability that the "top shelf" lathes have. I should and expect to get reasonable service from it, however.

[John Hedges]

I think Rod has a valid point and there seems to be one fact that is being overlooked. When we hear about these shipping damages here it seems they concern Grizzly equipment 95% or greater of the time. I know Grizzly is mail order exclusively, but with the ability to find the best tool deals on the net I know a greater number of folks order non Grizzly equipment online and have it shipped to them. I know I did with all my large equipment purchases because even with the cost of shipping it was considerably less to buy it online than anything I could find locally. Those other companies are using the same carriers as Grizzly but we don't hear about the incidents with their shipments on anywhere near the scale we hear about shipping issues with Grizzly. From what I have seen the packaging of my Bandsaw and PM equipment was extremely substantial compared to the packaging of my Grizzly equipment, which is why they didn't have problems in shipping, while my Grizzly equipment did.

I don't mean to put Grizzly down here, I am more pointing out the fact that the tools we are talking about are priced considerably less, and these savings come out of things like packaging which is fine as long as the buyer understands the risk involved. I think Steve's points in one of the above posts says it well.

It seems that some of the UPS bashing in this post is misplaced because these things could be packaged better to avoid a lot of the shipping damages we hear about.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Wow! A lot of theories and packing "experts".

The fact that almost 99% of our machines get to the customers (that's hundreds of thousands of orders over the years) is completely ignored. Don't you think we know the value of having a machine reach a customer in perfect condition? We ship tens of thousands of pounds of machines, and thousands, yes thousands, of orders a day! There are some freight terminals that have horrible workers that drop machines, tip them over, stand them up when they are not supposed to be stood up etc... Sometimes there is no common sense used or simply a "don't care" attitude by workers at certain depots.The driver that delivers your machine may be the nicest guy on earth and very gentle, but chances are there were one or two other terminals in different parts of the country along the way that handled your order as well. How they handled it, you don't know.

Short story: We had an order for a $20,000 machine (metal lathe) in Florida. Our PA warehouse was out of stock and the customer wanted the machine badly. He agreed to pay the additional shipping from our WA warehouse. These lathes are well crated. Solid crate all around and a skid that you can build a shelter under. The lathe is bolted to the skid in six different places with 3/4" x 8" long bolts. Still, we were leary about shipping it clear across the country as it would probably go through several freight terminals and who knows what kind of workers are in each one. We decided on adding solid plywood sheets to the outside of the crate and on top, screwed in, not nailed. We also made sure that it was braced in such a way to prevent it from tipping over. Our guys spent a whole day and several hundred dollars in materials on this machine crate.

You guessed it. The machine arrived with two forks through one side of the crate, a quarter of the crating on one end missing, as in ripped off the crate, and extensive damage to the whole machine on the inside. It was still very securely bolted to the skid that had major beams as a support. Still sitting upright. What did it have to go through to get there like that? A total loss to us, an upset customer, who luckily decided to wait for the next shipment and got the next one without an issue as it did not have to travel far. You can bullet proof a crate, but you cannot idiot proof it. And to insinuate that we cut costs on crating to reduce prices is plain absurd!

Then the question, "why do we use these carriers". Actually, we have weeded out several over the years, but there are just not that many National carriers left and those that are still around are mostly struggling. UPS has actually done a very good job of improving the facilities and workers from the old Overnight Transportation company. I am sure, like any business, they have their share of bad employees and they are working on their problem terminals. We certainly give their managers an earful about problems when they occur.

[Rob Cooper]

This thread reminds me of every time I travel via air. The baggage check-in is gentle and easy. Then sitting on the plane I occasionally see the baggage handlers hurl, jetison, toss, chuck, etc.... I suspect we see the creme of the crop in the "final" drivers that deliver our goods. What happens when few are looking causes most of the problems. I am amazed that ~98.5% of heavy tools are delivered without damage. As with all mail order, deal with companies that stand behind there products. Trying to performa a cost-benifit analysis on Grizzly shipping requires a lot more info than we have.

[Gary Lange]

Grizzly Industrial Centers
Springfield, Mo. 450,000 Sq. Ft.
Bellingham, Wa. 200,000 Sq. Ft.
Muncy, Pa. 430,000 Sq. Ft.

Total 1,080,000 Sq. Ft.
This is a lot of Square Footage for a company to have. I doubt that they have this kind of space because they only ship a few products. This kind of warehousing and showroom space no doubt ships more machines then any of the other woodworking machine companies do.

In contrast Powermatic has one 400,000 Sq. Ft. Distribution Center in LaVergne, Tn. from which they ship from. I doubt they do anywhere near the number of machines that Grizzly ships in a years time. This whole thread attacks Grizzly for no real good reason. If a machine that I was receiving from anyone came with a broken shipping carton I would refuse to take delivery and send it back. Let the shipper take care of the abuse it received.

[Alan DuBoff]

Fortunately, it only amounts to less than 1.5% of our shipments.
That is fortunate, but unfortunately there are more than 3 in 200 folks on the online woodworking forums that have problems with shipping Grizzly product. I must just hang out on the forums that have most of the damage...:rolleyes:

[Ben West]

I'm certainly not a shipping expert, but my G0634's crate seemed more than adequate to provide protection with reasonable care in handling. I can't imagine that crate failing unless it was dropped, hit by a forklift, or otherwise abused inappropriately.

There has been a bit of Grizzly bashing in this thread, and that's too bad. Grizzly is one of the great woodworking machinery manufacturers, and they have developed a very strong reputation for taking care of their customer. And, their higher-quality machines compare favorably with most any other company's machines.

As an aside, it is interesting to read the contrast between posts here at the creek and on the owwm site. Here, you don't have to look hard to find posts about the superiority of European machines. Go over there, and you'll find several posts about how the "cheap" euros can't compare to old American iron!

I have some old American iron, new Asian iron, and some European stuff. I took a lot of time in selecting everything I have, and they all perform at a level way above my abilities!!!

[Ben West]

That is fortunate, but unfortunately there are more than 3 in 200 folks on the online woodworking forums that have problems with shipping Grizzly product. I must just hang out on the forums that have most of the damage...:rolleyes:

That's really not a fair analysis. It's almost certain that those customers who had no shipping problems are much less likely to post the details of their non-eventful purchase than those that have major problems. So, just looking at the number of posts on either side is not a good measure.

[Scott Vigder]

That is fortunate, but unfortunately there are more than 3 in 200 folks on the online woodworking forums that have problems with shipping Grizzly product. I must just hang out on the forums that have most of the damage...:rolleyes:

You cannot possibly believe that your limited forum exposure is a statistically valid sample.

If so, I've got this "land" in Florida I've been trying to sell. Sure, it's covered with water now, but hey, in the future....:cool:

[Paul Coffin]

That's really not a fair analysis. It's almost certain that those customers who had no shipping problems are much less likely to post the details of their non-eventful purchase than those that have major problems. So, just looking at the number of posts on either side is not a good measure.

I agree with Ben, I think many Grizzly owners have never made a post because they have not had problems. I own the G0514X bandsaw, the G0453 planer, and the G0586 Jointer. All three machines arrived intact and have performed flawlessly for a couple of years now.

Paul

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't really see any Grizzley "bashing" here - there have just been a few who have pointed out that their personal preference would be to pay more money for a slightly lower probability (whether preceived or actual) of receiving a damaged tool. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - there are many, many people who would gladly choose the less expensive tool, though. To each their own, and obviously the criteria people use to make these decisions is highly dependant on many, many factors.

What REALLY impresses me is to see a customer treated like this, though. Can you imagine receiving this level of customer service from, say, Delta? Can you think of any company the size of Grizz that provides this level of customer service?

[Ben West]

I don't really see any Grizzley "bashing" here - there have just been a few who have pointed out that their personal preference would be to pay more money for a slightly lower probability (whether preceived or actual) of receiving a damaged tool. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - there are many, many people who would gladly choose the less expensive tool, though. To each their own, and obviously the criteria people use to make these decisions is highly dependant on many, many factors.



You're right. Perhaps "bashing" was too strong a word.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hey Dan, one of the "bashers" here, sorry, couldn't resist;)...

Hats off to Shiraz. It really is great to have the big boss out here in the woodshed with us knuckleheads, taking on problems that I'm sure someone else is paid to handle. That counts for something in my book.

Don't get me wrong though, if I had it to do over, I'd still buy the non Griz tools that I have. I may however, be more inclined to pull the trigger on those casters I've been checking on in the big catalog....

[Ben West]

Hey, I'm a basher too...it seems I can't hardly get out of the shop without a sore thumb!

Steve, I just got some of the Grizzly casters and they seem to be well made. I was about to get some from Great Lakes, but saw that Grizzly had some also, and I was able to get them with some other stuff I was ordering.

[Kevin Godshall]

Sorry to hear about the shipping/delivery issues, Glad to see Grizz's response to making a remedy to this problem. Hope everything works out and you can have your relaxation time.

As far as customer complaints and their frequencies, (and this applies to every business, even to woodworking), 10 out of every 10 customers that have a problem, real or perceived, will lodge a complaint and try to get as much as attention as possible (including posting on forums of peers).

However, the statistics rapidly drop off for satisfied customers spreading the potential good news. If every one that ever had a good/satisfactory transaction with Grizz would post a thread about it, this server would be full to overflowing.

It is not so much in the level of satisfaction/dissatisfaction, it is more in the adamancy of letting everyone else know my situation. If I have been "screwed", I want everyone to know. If I have been treated fairly and honesty.........well, that is what I expected and what's the big deal?

Not really fair, is it?

[Alan DuBoff]

That's really not a fair analysis. It's almost certain that those customers who had no shipping problems are much less likely to post the details of their non-eventful purchase than those that have major problems. So, just looking at the number of posts on either side is not a good measure.
Why is that not a fair analysis?

The 1.5 percent damage was a number thrown out by Shiraz.

Presumably this number is averaged, but we have to assume that SMC (as one example) fits into that average just like all the other customers do.

This implies that only 3 people in 200 will receive damage to their machines. Yet the numbers seem higher to me of folks that do actually purchase machines on SMC.

Your trying to tell me that the people that get Grizzly product that is not damaged just keep quiet???? I see folks say they got Grizzly equipment that wasn't damaged, but the numbers do not fit in the quoted 1.5 percent from my perception.

No bashing here, I call it how I see it.:)

[Troy Donson]

I don't know why I am jumping in, but I'm gonna...

Having been a mechanic for the last 30 years, I agree with Ben West's comment about not using the forums as a "statistical sampling" of what problems a particular manufacturer is having as regards shipping or overall quality for that matter... No offense to any of you guys, but they don't hold up to close inspection.

Take my daily existence for instance:

You come to me with a broken car. You pay me X number of dollars to fix it.

a) I fix your car. Done deal.

b) I did not fix your car. You go on home and the same problem is evident.

I guarantee you will be pretty unhappy if "b" happens and, in all likelyhood, tell folks (either online or in person) that you were not happy.

On the other hand, if "a" happens, well that's what you paid for. Why go out of your way to brag about how good a job I did. It is, in fact, what you paid me to do. If someone asks "Know a good mechanic?" you may tell them that I do ok by you, but then again, you don't write letters to Road & Track about me either...

Honestly, the only time I am called to the Service Manager's office is to tell me I screwed up or the car is still acting up and since I was the last guy to work on it a year ago - my fault. By extension, I should have been fired long ago because I never get called in for any "ata boys". "Statistically" it would seem I am unqualified to work on cars...


I guess when talking to people, I have found people will much sooner relate a "bad" experience than a "good" experience.

That is, unless you hang out here and have to contend with all the "Gloaters" :p

[Paul Ryan]

Troy,

As an ex mechanic of 17 years, I think you hit the "nail on the head." You only hear about the problems never the good stuff. Has the service manager or GM ever came back and said holy smokes good job on that one, you made time on the 1st attempt. Nope only what the heck took so long, book time is only .5 you got 3 hours into it. And the customer only remembers the problems. Never the fact that the actual repair was %20 less than the estimate.
So I really think we have to applaud Grizzly for making it right. And understand that they cannot control what goes on in the freight terminals. I think Shiraz said it best, "you can gorilla proof someting but not idiot proof it." It could be in a steel casket and someone would try to wreck it.

[Gary Lange]

When you pick up a big town daily news paper you never see articles about all the good things that go on in daily life only the crimes and punishments and the bad or horrible or even worse things that go on. Would be nice to hear from all the Grizzly users that received there equipment and it was in great shape and worked perfectly. It seems that everyone will post the bad stuff but nobody posts the good stuff. Look at the size of Grizzly over 1,080,000 Sq. Ft. of showroom and warehouse space. You can bet they shipped more then 200 pieces. They most likely do that in an hours time so figure it out for yourself. A think a lot of Grizzly equipment is being shipped and delivered in new condition.
I would also say that if you accept a shipment that has an obviously damaged shipping container without checking it before it gets unloaded then you have nobody to blame but yourself. If it is damaged refuse delivery and send it back. Maybe next time the shipper will give a little more care and will also send it back if it is delivered to him with damage.

[glenn bradley]

A think a lot of Grizzly equipment is being shipped and delivered in new condition. I would also say that if you accept a shipment that has an obviously damaged shipping container without checking it before it gets unloaded then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Gary is quite correct. As I stated earlier, two 400 pound . . . oops! Three machines without a hitch. The driver backed his semi right into the driveway, pallet-jacked the crates out onto lift gate and then backed right into the garage to set it down. FedEx Freight delivered each time. Might be a left-coast thing :confused:.

[BOB OLINGER]

Dan,

Very sorry to hear of your misfortunes. I recently purchased a moulding machine from Grizzly and it came boxed up without any problems. Also bought a tenon jig which is lots smaller without incidence. Most important is resolving your problems. As many have allready said, find or build a pallet, crate it up, and send it back. DO NOT attempt to fix it yourself. That is admirable and would be OK if not such large machine(s) with complex machining. I can't speak with personal experience of this nature with Grizzly, but other posts speak highly of them standing behind their equipment. Our best to you. Keep us posted.

[Mikail Khan]

Gary is quite correct. As I stated earlier, two 400 pound . . . oops! Three machines without a hitch. The driver backed his semi right into the driveway, pallet-jacked the crates out onto lift gate and then backed right into the garage to set it down. FedEx Freight delivered each time. Might be a left-coast thing :confused:.

I am from Trinidad in the caribbean and over the last 2 years i've ordered a 514X bandsaw (400lbs), a 1033X planer (800lbs) and a 609X jointer (900lbs) from Grizzly.

I have had all three shipped at separate times to my freight forwarder in Miami. From there they were put into containers with a forklift and shipped via sea (1600 mile-7 day trip) to Trinidad where the containers were unstuffed and the equipment put in a warehouse on the port. After customs clearance the equipment was put on a pickup (bandsaw) or truck(planer/jointer) and transported 30 miles to my house. They were then offloaded with a hydraulic lift gate or a crane and rolled into my garage.

All equipment was received in perfect condition. This suggests that once the boxes are handled properly by the freight companies, the Grizz packaging is sufficient to protect the machines inside.

Dan, I'm sure you will be happy with your G0634 when you get the new one up and running.

MK

[Don Bullock]

... The driver backed his semi right into the driveway, pallet-jacked the crates out onto lift gate and then backed right into the garage to set it down. FedEx Freight delivered each time. Might be a left-coast thing :confused:.

It could be a Left Coast thing. That's exactly what the FedEx Freight driver did when I got my G0490.

As the one who suggested to the OP to involve Papa Grizzly in his problem I had no idea that this thread would turn into this. I'm very impresses that Mr. Balolia has gotten involved and is assisting with the problem. Yes, some people receive machines from Grizzly that are damaged. I have also read where Grizzly corrects the problems very quickly. You can't ask more than that. There have been numerous posts about problems with machines from other companies that were damaged in shipping. One that I recall wend on for several months before it was finally resolved. It can happen to anyone no matter what brand or shipping companies are involved.

I am very happy with my Grizzly machine as well as the shipping. If I were to purchase a machine today I would definitely consider another one from Grizzly. I know, however, that shipping can be a problem and have to factor that into my decision.

If my budget allows I'd much rather purchase a machine from a local vendor who would also set up the machine for me before it arrives at my home. I've had that luxury and fully enjoyed it. The truck driver backed his truck into my driveway, lowered the saw on the liftgate and rolled it into my garage. The saw had already been installed on a mobile base and was set up, ready to use. Would it be great if Grizzly could offer such service? Sure, I'd buy everything from them. Unfortunately my budget doesn't allow me to do that for every machine, no matter what brand or vendor. So, some of my machines have come from local vendors and one, so far, has come from Grizzly. It's a personal decision.

[dan lemkin]

The new machine arrived by UPS freight yesterday. As I was advised earlier, the crate was reinforced. 1x4 hardwood boards were laminated to the existing crate all the way around it.

The machine did separate from the crate floor again. It was held down with 5/16" 1" lag screws and a machine bolt threaded into a hole in the feet. 1" x 1" by approx 3/16" thick angle brackets were used.
- two of the lag screws pulled out of the crate
- two of the machine bolts pulled out of threaded holes
- there were no hold-down straps

The machine shifted within crate so it arrived touching two inner walls. The crate integrity held. There was no obvious damage to the device or crate.

I talked with Bo (support supervisor). Together we agreed that I would accept the device and see what happens. To be clear, I was given the option to refuse it, and not pressured to take it. I just didn't want to refuse it--- just to refuse it, as I didn't see any damage. Plus, I am getting kinda impatient with the whole process.

I have pics which I will post as soon as I get a chance.

Of note... I got a call at 8:30pm last night from another supervisor from the freight dept who was very apologetic and very nice. She indicated that they are using this as a sentinel case to review freight practices and packaging.

[Rod Sheridan]

Dan, glad to hear that things are progressing well, I hope everything is OK for you.....Rod.

[Charlie Knauer]

:)Dan, call me when you have an idea of when you are going to swap machines. I am sitting here eating my Wheaties.

Charlie

[harry strasil]

I have neither the space or the finances to purchase any of the larger WWing machinery, but if I were to fall into some sort of windfall circumstance (win the lottery), where I was in a position to afford both the financial end and the space restictions (large shop building). From the replies here and from other sources, besides I like the look of the Grizzly line of tools, both Woodworking and Metalworking, Grizzly would be my first choice because of the CUSTOMER FRIENDLY and bending over backward ATTITUDE of Mr. Shiraz Balolia and his company.

When I owned my own business, I was always willing to pay more for something from a company that STOOD BEHIND their products and who offered me the customer prompt technical information and prompt repair parts and/or service. In this instance WWers are actually paying LESS for a QUALITY PRODUCT, and getting the MOST IMPORTANT PART, A BUSINESS CEO who PERSONALY will work with his CUSTOMERS, to promptly work with his CUSTOMERS to resolve any discrepencies with the product, NO MATTER whose was at fault, the company, its empoyees or the shipper or shippers who transported the product to the customers door.

I SALUTE YOU, Mr. Balolia in your DEDICATION to CUSTOMER SERVICE and being the BOSS of such a Large Company who CARES about CUSTOMER SATISFACTION.

In my book that is called PRIDE and CARING, ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY.

Respectfully

Jr. Strasil

PS - If there were more people like you, this would be a much better world.

And an Old Saying just came to mind. Bad News travels and moves so fast, but GOOD news has a way of falling thru the cracks and travels oh so SLOW!

[Frederick Rowe]

Same message as Charlie, let me know if you need any help unpacking, moving, or setting up. I know it's a pain, but better to deal with these things upfront.

[Ben West]

Dan,

I hope this is a happy ending to your story.

I just don't understand what the heck the freight company is doing to create enough force to rip those lag and machine screws out.

It took me a good hour, with sledgehammer and wrecking bar, to free my G0634 from its crate. To cause that kind of damage, your shipping company must really be throwing these things around somehow.

[John Callahan]

I hope this is a happy ending to your story.
............ +1. It's luck of the draw really. Shiraz mentioned 1.5% which is actually pretty good all things considered though small consolation if you're in that 1.5% and given Grizzly's sales volume that figure is bound to be a far larger number than Felder or MiniMax which could be why we hear about it more. Over the years I've been pretty fortunate (knocking on wood as I type this) with only one return and one repair and a few close calls. My Makita miter saw (a recon in non factory packaging) arrived via UPS (someone else signed for it) minus half the carton. :eek: Amazingly enough all was still there including the extra blade and the saw was dead on out of what remained of the box.

[dan lemkin]

Here are photos of the new crate. I am gathering the lifting party for tomorrow morning. I think we have enough hands... but it is costing me breakfast and coffee for all ;) Thanks to all who offered to help out. It was very kind and generous. I will post one last reply once I get a chance to fire it up... to report if all is well.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dan,

I'd swear looking at you photos of the damage inside the crate....that thing had to have been dropped. I can't imagine any other way it could have sheared or pulled those lags and bolts out.

Good luck!

[Rick Fisher]

I purchased 4 new General machines in the last 2 years.

(1) The shaper showed up with a broken ratchet. I couldnt tighten the fence.

(2) The 20" planer motor had a pinched wire, as soon as I put power to it, the motor shorted out and cooked.

(3) The 15" Wide Belt would not track. It needed to be dissasembled and fixed. I did the work with a General Tech on the phone. It took about an hour.

(4) The 24" Drum sander ran for an hour and the circuit board that runs the conveyor failed.


4 for 4.

In each case, General responded rapidly. The tech and I are now on a first name basis :) I have talked to many folks up here in Canada with General equipment and they didnt have any problems ...

General reacted much the way Shiraz did. I am still impressed by the customer service.

In my business, stuff goes wrong. I own quite a few companies and each has its problems. What is most important is how they are dealt with, not if they happen.

[Paul Ryan]

With out knowing how the machines that Rick has were damaged.
It just goes to show you. You can spent 2 times as much money on equipment and it can still show up damaged or not working. It feels like we are beating a dead horse here but, UPS freight is that company that should be held responsible. I do have an axe to grind with them, they have damaged 2 of Dan shipments. That is totally unacceptable. Those of you that think Generals quipment is crated so much better, UPS freight would have no problem damageing those tools either.

[dan lemkin]

Well... looks like this machine is going back as well.

1) infeed and outfeed tables are not parallel. Charlie K. and I spent some time trying to get them into plane, but they are way out...
1a) Actual tables are not flat - placed grizzly steel straight edge perpendicularly on in-feed table and saw lots of light through bottom - cupped in the middle. Not gaping, but maybe 1/64"
2) When you turn on the planer... there is a high pitched whining noise, like a bad bearing. It sounds like it is coming from near the cutter head. Purely speculating, but maybe when they sprayed degreaser all over the cutter head assembly, it got into a bearing? It is definitely not as smooth running as my last one...
3) Thumping is present again when feed roller is engaged - which was presumably due to an irregularity in the friction lining of the feed roller wheel.
4) There is >= 1/16" lateral play in the planer table. Compared it to my last machine which was rock solid.

All in all.... too much to try to fix. Alas, due to work schedules I am discovering these issues when Grizzly is closed. I will follow up with Bo and see what the next step is... Luckily I discovered this before we exchanged the machines off the pallet. I am quickly running out of good will from my neighbors (for lifting help).

Trying to keep smiling...

-dan

[Chuck Wintle]

let's hope the third time is the charm:):):)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Good greif Dan, you're cursed!

When my Felder combo came in, it was held down to the pallet in a similar fashion as the Griz. The brackets are a clever little thing that eliminate destroying any paint, but the idea is the same. The main body of the Felder weighed probably 1600#, and it was screwed down with 8 of those brackets IIRK. Wonder if Griz could just use more brackets?

[M. A. Espinoza]

Dan,

Been following the thread, pretty tough luck.

I would advise turning around, shutting off the lights, closing the door to the shop, taking a walk and petting the dog. Then call Grizzly and tell them they get one more shot.

You shouldn't have to repair damage from a freight company so a third machine should be sent. All you were trying to do was give Grizzly money for one of their machines the rest is Grizzly's concern.

On the third machine even though it is a huge pain for Grizzly; before they ship they need to unpack, check it, (power up, check operation, table flatness alignment etc.) then repack, strap it down, double crate and send it to you. And get those other two out of your way, or let you sell them for scrap. Normally those steps would be completely out of the question for a tool dealer in their price range but the inconveniences you've had to deal with are not small.

I'm not saying that Grizzly caused the damage. It clearly was the freight company. I'm sure that the freight company's rep is getting an earful. Grizzly is a good company and I have no problem's with how they have handled it.

Things happen but since you have had to deal with extraordinarily bad shipping unfortunately they need to go to extraordinary lengths to rectify.

Good luck.

[Al Navas]

I have NOT read every single post in this thread - I just skimmed it, and would like to add the following:

I have several Grizzly machines in my shop.


The first ones I ordered were the 8-inch jointer, and the 17-inch band saw. They arrived in perfect condition.
A few weeks later I ordered the oscillating spindle sander. It arrived in perfect condition.
Then I needed a drill press. I ordered the 12-speed machine, and it arrived in perfect condition.
Then I ordered a shaper. Upon arrival, the driver suggested I look in the truck, before we unloaded, as he mentioned he suspected damage, based on the appearance of the packing material. Sure enough, the entire thing looked like it had toppled over, the packing failed upon impact, and the cast iron had broken. A heck of a whack! I simply wrote on the papers "Shipment rejected due to damage", returned the papers to the driver, and off he went.

As I had to get something quickly (bought something else locally), I canceled the order. Shiraz and his people made good on their side, and reimbursed my credit card within 48 hours, no hassle, no questions asked.

I will order the heavy iron from Grizzly again. It is Shiraz and his policies that make Grizzly a great company to deal with. The message is a tad slow to get to some of his people, but eventually it does.

But it IS the shippers that seem to hire just about anyone off the street, no training, nothing - and they care less and less with each passing day.

Now, about this other machine from...;)


.

[dan lemkin]

Talked with a bunch of Grizzly folks today. The freight dept noted there are only G0634's in the washington warehouse... not a small trip...


From Jen in Freight Dept: As we discussed on the telephone, we are in the process of thoroughly inspecting a replacement G0634 before we send it to you. I spoke with our Quality Control Manager after I got off the telephone with you, and he confirmed that our engineer is working on this today, and actually plans to call you to discuss once he's finished going over the machine.

I have set up return authorization ###### for the most recent damaged machine you received (RA ###### was already created for the first damaged machine). Please write this number on the outside of the crate. I am working with UPS Freight to try to have both damaged machines picked up at the same time your replacement is delivered. As I mentioned on the telephone, I will contact you again once I hear from UPS Freight to let you know what we've figured out. I will also contact you when your replacement machine is ready to ship.

Again, we are very sorry for the multiple problems you have had with your recent orders and for the inconvenience it has caused you. If you have any questions or concerns before you hear back from me, please feel free to contact me at this e-mail address (which I monitor constantly throughout the day) or by telephone at ###-###-#### I talked with Bo at tech support who was nice and professional as always. He advised me an engineer in washington would go over the machine carefully and call me.

I talked with Shaun who noted that he measured the tables, and that they were off < .001 inch. He cleaned the cutterhead and tables. He did note that the manufacturer was shipping the units with the planer feed wheel engaged which did result in a permanent dent in the polyurethane wheel. He put it on a lathe, and fixed that. He checked over everything and then tested it. I got this email:
I enjoyed speaking with you today. I've finished checking over your machine and I did go ahead and cut with it as discussed. I edge jointed a 42" long piece of maple at both the rear and front of the table and could see no light at all when I held the board up to a Starret straight edge. I face joined a 32" x 10" board and it was dead flat as well. I planned the same board on both sides and it only varied 1-2 thousandths from side to side along the length. Pretty darn good in my opinion. Your machine should be crated and ready to ship out tomorrow. Let me know once you get it if you have any questions or concerns.

He said they are building a crate to withstand the cross country trip with bolt through bracing this time... Also with screws, so I can disassemble it and use it for the return trip of the first machine.

To be fair to Grizzly, some of my concerns may have been misplaced. He noted that the 1/16" of play if rotary is not a defect and does not take the planer table out of plane... I can not be sure what I felt was lateral and not rotary given the small amount of play I felt. He also noted that combo units really depend on the table clamps to true up the tables... and although the amount mine seems to be off was extreme... it may be an adjustment failure, not necessarily a manufacturing or damage issue.

As annoying an experience as this has been, it has been an absolute pleasure dealing with the folks at Grizzly. Considering that most of the issues I am contending with appear to be due to shipping damage, it makes their efforts that much more impressive and appreciated.

An interesting point Shaun he made me aware of... He mentioned that these machines can get thrown all over the place in the back of trucks just by driving down the road. Apparantly the shipping companies show them videos about what happens on the road, and he mentioned that it was really shocking and impressive... The issue is made worse by empty trucks and small trucks on the local legs of a trip. So some or all of the damage may have been a result of the trip and not necessarily due to a callous employee.

Hopefully this saga is nearing its end... After all this expense, my wife has created quite a list of furniture I am now required to build :o

[M. A. Espinoza]

And this is why Grizzly impresses with their customer service. Its been long time since I've had to contact Grizzly's customer service but even ten years ago it was not a hassle at all.

I'm glad they are taking all the right steps to make sure you finally get the tool you ordered in good condition. I won't jinx you by considering it a done deal but its looking good.

Freight companies can be a huge test of patience. We used to sell Italian leather furniture. Custom made and shipped halfway around the world, it would take four months to arrive and sometimes at the last terminal forty miles from delivery to us a forklift goes through it. Frustrating.

Having good people in the customer service department is so valuable to a company, sounds like Mr. Balolia definitely understands this.

[Alex Shanku]

And this is why Grizzly impresses with their customer service. Its been long time since I've had to contact Grizzly's customer service but even ten years ago it was not a hassle at all.

I'm glad they are taking all the right steps to make sure you finally get the tool you ordered in good condition. I won't jinx you by considering it a done deal but its looking good.

Freight companies can be a huge test of patience. We used to sell Italian leather furniture. Custom made and shipped halfway around the world, it would take four months to arrive and sometimes at the last terminal forty miles from delivery to us a forklift goes through it. Frustrating.

Having good people in the customer service department is so valuable to a company, sounds like Mr. Balolia definitely understands this.

I guess after reading this thread, and many others like it, how else COULD they have handled it?

I mean, the OP spent over $2500 on this machine. Only to end up with a broken machine, TWICE.

If grizzly wants to stay in business, this is the ONLY way to handle matters like this. Especially if its being covered on a web site where 1000's of woodworkers and potential customers convene.

I hope the OP gets his problems resolved. He is more patient the I am. I would have taken my business elsewhere long ago.

[dan lemkin]

The new J/P is coming on Wednesday... So Kevin (my pal from UPS freight:)) stopped by to gather the 2nd machine to make room.

I was thinking about offering my garage as a 4th warehouse for Grizzly...but alas... it is too small.:D

[Lee Hingle]

I have neither the space or the finances to purchase any of the larger WWing machinery, but if I were to fall into some sort of windfall circumstance (win the lottery), where I was in a position to afford both the financial end and the space restictions (large shop building). From the replies here and from other sources, besides I like the look of the Grizzly line of tools, both Woodworking and Metalworking, Grizzly would be my first choice because of the CUSTOMER FRIENDLY and bending over backward ATTITUDE of Mr. Shiraz Balolia and his company.

When I owned my own business, I was always willing to pay more for something from a company that STOOD BEHIND their products and who offered me the customer prompt technical information and prompt repair parts and/or service. In this instance WWers are actually paying LESS for a QUALITY PRODUCT, and getting the MOST IMPORTANT PART, A BUSINESS CEO who PERSONALY will work with his CUSTOMERS, to promptly work with his CUSTOMERS to resolve any discrepencies with the product, NO MATTER whose was at fault, the company, its empoyees or the shipper or shippers who transported the product to the customers door.

I SALUTE YOU, Mr. Balolia in your DEDICATION to CUSTOMER SERVICE and being the BOSS of such a Large Company who CARES about CUSTOMER SATISFACTION.

In my book that is called PRIDE and CARING, ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY.

Respectfully

Jr. Strasil

PS - If there were more people like you, this would be a much better world.

And an Old Saying just came to mind. Bad News travels and moves so fast, but GOOD news has a way of falling thru the cracks and travels oh so SLOW!

Harry,
No offense, but I think you are going overboard on this one. The OP could not get a replacement machine shipped to swap crates with the damaged machine until the president of the company intervened. He was going to get more "band aid" parts (Shiraz's words) to fix the brand new machine himself. That is nowhere near excellent customer service. I have Grizzly machines and I think they are a good value, but ever take a look at their return policy? 20% restocking fee and you pay the shipping back. Ever buy at Woodcraft or Lee Valley? 90 days (or more) no questions asked return policy. The president of the company does not have to step in to help you out.

Lee

[Joel Earl]

Dan,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. I guess I am glad that someone else out there has the same troubles that I do. It doesn't make it right though.

One machine it happens. Two machines bad on them. Any more than that and they need to do more than just replace the machines. Are these machines in a basement or easily accessed? I would not think you should be trying to fix these but I have never had new machines break on me before.

Greg

Jet table saw - broken arbor
Jet DC - bad motor as shipped
Jet AFF - wired wrong

It happens to them all :(:o:mad:;)

It shouldn't get past QC but it does. Good friend bought a sweet PM 2000 last week. He's still waiting for them to come back and get it also - the trunnion or something bad and can't move it.

It's 2009 - won't it be nice if this stuff ceased to occur!
It won't - so all I want is that things get remedied in a timely manner. It did not happen that way in my case on the above so right or wrong, I will not give them a chance in the future

[Robert Strasser]

I've had shipments of large machinery from two companies. One does it right, the other not so right. I've attached two pictures of a saw that was packaged extremely well. The pallet was made of 2 by 8's on top of 4 by 4's. The saw was bolted to the pallet and was wrapped with many miles of plastic wrap. Underneath the plastic wrap are boxes and parts that were secured with straps attached with staples to the pallet. And there must have been a thousand staples. It took me two hours to unwrap that saw and remove all the staples. But the really important part of the packaging were the sensors placed on the outside of the cardboard box. These sensors are for detecting any tipping or dropping of the package. Next to these sensors were lables that stated not to accept delivery if any tipping or dropping was indicated. I wonder if those sensors caused better treatment of that shipment? There wasn't a mark or dent on the cardboard surrounding the saw. I received another tool from this company in the same excellent condition. They know how to do it right.

The next shipment was not received in such great shape. It was a 16-inch bandsaw. You might not be able to see all the damage in the attached picture, but the pallet and surrounding wood are in bad shape. Actually, part of the pallet is actually missing. (I'm sorry the picture is sideways, I don't know how to change that.) Parts and accessories are contained inside the plastic. Nothing was missing, but everything was loose and banging around. I could not detect any damage to the saw, so I took delivery. After getting all the wrapping off I noticed the top door had a dent and the fence rail was bent. The fence rail was solid steel, about 1 inch square. It took a big force to bend that rail. The saw actually worked fine after all the rough treatment. I replaced the fence with an after-market fence that was better than the original.

The packaging of the bandsaw was pathetic to start with. What a cheap pallet and flimsy crating. I use the term "crating" very loosly. But if they would have put some of those tip sensors on the crate, I would have known that it had been knocked over. And maybe it would have been handled a little nicer by the shipper.

I'm convinced that the companies can do a better job of packaging. The reason they don't is because they make more money the way they are doing it now. It might upset a few customers, but not enough to affect their sales or profit.

[Dave Lehnert]

Harry,
No offense, but I think you are going overboard on this one. The OP could not get a replacement machine shipped to swap crates with the damaged machine until the president of the company intervened. He was going to get more "band aid" parts (Shiraz's words) to fix the brand new machine himself. That is nowhere near excellent customer service. I have Grizzly machines and I think they are a good value, but ever take a look at their return policy? 20% restocking fee and you pay the shipping back. Ever buy at Woodcraft or Lee Valley? 90 days (or more) no questions asked return policy. The president of the company does not have to step in to help you out.

Lee

Better read Woodcrafts guarantee again.

Satisfaction Guaranteed – We Promise!
We’re absolutely confident that you’ll be satisfied with your purchase from Woodcraft! If you’re not, return it anytime within 90 days and we will gladly replace the product, give you credit, or refund your money, whichever you prefer. Woodcraft’s Guarantee does not apply to power tools, which are subject only to manufacturer’s warranties. Special-order items or manufacturer drop-ships are subject to a 25% restocking fee.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I've had shipments of large machinery from two companies. One does it right, the other not so right. I've attached two pictures of a saw that was packaged extremely well. The pallet was made of 2 by 8's on top of 4 by 4's. The saw was bolted to the pallet and was wrapped with many miles of plastic wrap. Underneath the plastic wrap are boxes and parts that were secured with straps attached with staples to the pallet. And there must have been a thousand staples. It took me two hours to unwrap that saw and remove all the staples. But the really important part of the packaging were the sensors placed on the outside of the cardboard box. These sensors are for detecting any tipping or dropping of the package. Next to these sensors were lables that stated not to accept delivery if any tipping or dropping was indicated. I wonder if those sensors caused better treatment of that shipment? There wasn't a mark or dent on the cardboard surrounding the saw. I received another tool from this company in the same excellent condition. They know how to do it right.

The next shipment was not received in such great shape. It was a 16-inch bandsaw. You might not be able to see all the damage in the attached picture, but the pallet and surrounding wood are in bad shape. Actually, part of the pallet is actually missing. (I'm sorry the picture is sideways, I don't know how to change that.) Parts and accessories are contained inside the plastic. Nothing was missing, but everything was loose and banging around. I could not detect any damage to the saw, so I took delivery. After getting all the wrapping off I noticed the top door had a dent and the fence rail was bent. The fence rail was solid steel, about 1 inch square. It took a big force to bend that rail. The saw actually worked fine after all the rough treatment. I replaced the fence with an after-market fence that was better than the original.

The packaging of the bandsaw was pathetic to start with. What a cheap pallet and flimsy crating. I use the term "crating" very loosly. But if they would have put some of those tip sensors on the crate, I would have known that it had been knocked over. And maybe it would have been handled a little nicer by the shipper.

I'm convinced that the companies can do a better job of packaging. The reason they don't is because they make more money the way they are doing it now. It might upset a few customers, but not enough to affect their sales or profit.

Robert, you're right, the Felder pallet system is pretty darn good.

[M. A. Espinoza]

Harry,
No offense, but I think you are going overboard on this one. The OP could not get a replacement machine shipped to swap crates with the damaged machine until the president of the company intervened. He was going to get more "band aid" parts (Shiraz's words) to fix the brand new machine himself. That is nowhere near excellent customer service. I have Grizzly machines and I think they are a good value, but ever take a look at their return policy? 20% restocking fee and you pay the shipping back. Ever buy at Woodcraft or Lee Valley? 90 days (or more) no questions asked return policy. The president of the company does not have to step in to help you out.

Lee

I think the point is that Grizzly is a company that has a president that is accessible and does intervene.

At Grizzly's price point I wouldn't expect "white glove" delivery service. But by and large they do a good job and when things really go screwy they don't seem to leave people on an island waiting for a lawyer.

I don't expect Grizzly to be perfect but if there is a problem I expect them to make it right and it seems they do. I don't expect any company to have a "replace first, ask questions later" policy on large equipment.

If a business spent tens of thousands of dollars on a slider saw and there was an issue I don't think the first thing a manufacturer is going to do is send out a new one. Likely they will attempt to get the one they sent working. This seems normal, its not a jigsaw.

I don't own any Grizzly tools at the moment but I have and I've used them at shops. They're much better quality now than they were fifteen years ago and you can use them to make a living.

Someone showed a photo of Felder's crating and it is excellent. At their price point I would expect it. Higher price = higher expectations. Works that way when I sell too.

Unless we start hearing about lots of problems with new Grizzly equipment I would attribute most this ordeal to bad luck.

[Chris Padilla]

I've had shipments of large machinery from two companies. One does it right, the other not so right.

Well, the packaging is only half of it, though, right? Shiraz himself pointed out that good packaging can easily be destroyed by a careless fork lift operator. Short of encasing products in reinforced concrete, packaging is at the mercy of the handlers along the shipping route....

[dan lemkin]

Well this one arrived in pristine condition. UPS was watching it like a hawk. They were in touch with me from the moment the PRO number was issued, and called me 5 minutes after delivery to make sure it was ok.

The entire crate was covered with 1/2 particle board and screwed together so I could easily swap it out for the return trip. The crate was reinforced on the bottom with 3/4 particle board and bolted through 2x4s with 5/16 bolts. It did not move. Shaun had totally cleaned up the machine and then stretch wrapped it... It looks great.

It will take me a day or so to round up friends to lift and swap out J/Ps... but I will post a final (thank goodness) post about how it runs. I am excited, and very optimistic.

[Ted Shrader]

Dan -

Glad one finally made it to your home in good condition. This whole process was a learning exercise. Hopefully, the lessons learned will be carried forward to make future tranactions go smoothly.

Regards,
Ted

[Steve Clardy]

Dan -

Glad one finally made it to your home in good condition. This whole process was a learning exercise. Hopefully, the lessons learned will be carried forward to make future tranactions go smoothly.

Regards,
Ted



Ditto that.

[Jerry White]

Congratulations, Dan! Now the fun part is just around the corner. I'm looking forward to reading your review on this machine.

[Chris Padilla]

Whiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! I can amost hear the purr of that journal head buzzing up to speed!!

Lets hope this one moves ahead and stays purring for a long, long time! :)

[dan lemkin]

I got the new J/P off the pallet by myself with cribbing and swapped them out. Cleaned it up and wired it.

It is beautiful. The tables dont have a scratch and even the grinding looks nicer. The planer drive wheel runs smoothly. The fence operates well. The motor purrrs without any whine. This is a specimen machine.

If it runs like this 10 years from now, I will be a very very happy dude.

The numerous posts on this thread have educated me regarding the nature of heavy machinery. It is clear that people have experienced problems with many different manufacturers equipment. It is also clear that the shippers in this case bear much of the responsibility for the issues with which I had to cope. Grizzly initially did not respond in a manner I was thrilled with, but then more than rose to the occasion.

Everyone I talked with at both Grizzly and their contacts at UPS were incredibly nice and apologetic. They followed-up without any prodding from me, and kept things moving. Shaun, the engineer did a beautiful job of detailing this machine (thanks). They also made nice gestures (without any prompting)... offering me a gift certificate and than another gift certificate as a consolation for all these hassles. Their service truly is top notch.

Overall, this has been a learning experience and an exercise in patience. But everything worked out well in the end (as many predicted) and I am psyched to get to play...

[the end--- I swear]:cool:

[Mark Bolton]

I had read the initial post but only read the entire thread yesterday but what kills me the machine is inherently top heavy when being moved/shipped. This would be clear to to a teenager much less the manufacturer of the machine. That said, they relied on lags and light angles/bolts to fasten it to the pallet. I would wager a few weeks salary that had this machine been fastened to the pallet in such a way that the pallet would have to have been dropped from a great height for the machine to come loose that it would have arrived intact and undamaged. The damage to the dust port looks like a fork skewer which $10 of OSB would have solved or at least made for a crystal clear refusal on arrival.

Its a convenient assumption from the couch, but some angles cut from 1 1/2" x 3/16" angle (cheaply fabricated in house by a machinery manufacturer), some 7/16" or 1/2" hex caps, washers, and top-locks, and a piece of 3/16"x3" flat stock cut square with a center hole punched for a washer on the bottom, coupled with 2 sheets of OSB@$4/sheet wholesale, would have kept this machine attached to the pallet and likely safe. That whole affair would have cost perhaps $12 for the material and perhaps an additional 40.00 in man hours of crating. $52.00 of cost savings has now cost the customer far in excess of that (whats your time worth), may have cost UPS a free shipment and damage claim, has cost grizzly the work of dealing with, and filing this claim, and further cost them a smear on their crating/customer service because it seems clear that if the OP wasnt lucky enough to have posted this on SC the outcome would likely have been far different.

To be completely honest, based on this thread, if I were UPS I would refuse the damage claim based on poor packaging by the shipper and felt completely in the right. I agree with another post stating that at this price point you have to expect certain things...

Mark

[Scott Vigder]

To be completely honest, based on this thread, if I were UPS I would refuse the damage claim based on poor packaging by the shipper and felt completely in the right. I agree with another post stating that at this price point you have to expect certain things... Mark

Nice armchair quarterbacking, but I think you threw an interception.

[Mark Bolton]

not sure I follow,... but run with it...
Mark

[dan lemkin]

Too good to be true... Problem found. Fence hold down screw is stripped because either the hole is tapped incorrectly, or the wrong size screw is used... SAE vs metric? When I tightened it down I made sure not to apply a ridiculous amount of force... just enough to hold the fence in place.

Look at the video to see the play in the sleeve. The cast iron is tapped and about 3/4 thick... you turn the screw and it keeps turning, does not lock down fence.


video: http://zarg.net/uploads/fenceslack.wmv

[Chuck Wintle]

Dan,

Is it now a question that they can replace a part to make it right. A stripped thread is unacceptable on a new machine in my opinion. :(

[harry strasil]

Helicoil is an option, but where you tighten and loosen a lot, they have a tendency to unscrew, best bet is what I used to use on diesel engine head bolts, made by Caterpillar, its a solid threaded insert that you drill and tap out the hole then screw the insert in and there are 3 or 4 hard metal splines you drive in to secure the insert in place. I would use the caterpillar insert myself, if the company does not make it right, this is a failure on the companies part absolutely.

[Mark Hochstein]

I think, if I were you, at this point I'd just have Grizzly pick it up and I'd be driving up to Cayce in Cockeysville and picking up the Jet model.

[Bob Luciano]

I have to agree with Mark and bill them for your time. I have to ask will you be buying more from them? I mean they have great customer service and all but did you really plan on getting on a first name basis with all of them? It has been over a month since the purchase 3 machines and building a crate later and the only dust the machines are responsible for is you making the crate to send it back.

[dan lemkin]

I have to admit... this is really pushing the limits of my patience and good will... It is a minor glitch, but yet another thing to deal with. The regular tech support told me they don't have any more of the fence parts in stock. I am curious how they will handle this.

I know they have two broken ones sitting around in their warehouses... maybe they can take a fence off one of my old machines. I should have kept one for parts.

[Bob Luciano]

See if they will send back the least damaged machine so you can strip it for parts to make this one work. Never know they might and UPS freight knows your address by heart

[Sean Kinn]

The regular tech support told me they don't have any more of the fence parts in stock.

This is the issue I had with Grizz when I needed a replacement part for a current production model. Page 11 of the 2009 catalog brags about "over a million parts in stock at all times" yet there are several stories (myself included) of having to wait 2 or more months for a part while it is on the slow boat from Taiwan. To be fair , I'd expect the same from Jet and the other importers. It's just darn frustrating when you walk by the mound of useless steel in the garage waiting for a part to arrive.

[dan lemkin]

Bo emailed and said he would "get" one to me by tuesday. If it doesn't arrive, any reason I can't drill and tap it with a 3/8" set and get a 3/8" bolt/knob?

Does anyone anticipate any problems drilling out the cast iron?

[Sean Kinn]

Not at all, it's very easy to drill and tap. Especially since you could just go up to the closest SAE or metric size, and you aren't starting from scratch. Also, this doen't look like a location where a ton of precision is required. As long as the new hole was pretty darn close to straight it should work just fine.

[Mark Hochstein]

Dan, Just be careful. It's a brand new machine and if something else were to go wrong, I would hate to see them say that it was no longer covered by warranty because you drilled and tapped it. They probably wouldn't even notice, but with your so far I'd be a little nervy about doing it.

[John Hedges]

Perhaps in this case a bad month.


Just as a clarification. It's been 2 months. The original post stated that this was ordered in the beginning of December. Just so ya know the new Jet is hundreds less, and seems to get great reviews. I'd send it back and go with a different machine.

[Joe Jensen]

That's one way of looking at it, however if it were me, the machine would be going back for a full refund and I'd be shopping elsewhere.

When I purchased my General 650 I had a problem with splitter/blade alignment. It turned out to be an error in the manual.

General's response was to offer the services of their service technician free of charge, at an appointment time that was convenient for me.

The tech of course figured out what was wrong, phoned me back and offered to put the splitter on for me, however the problem was simply that the manual had the spacer on the wrong side of the splitter. I thanked him, installed the spacer on the correct side, which solved the problem. That's customer service.

It was the only problem I've ever had with General equipment, and I have a shop full of it.

Last year my Hammer A3-31 was dropped off at my house, no shipping damage, completely adjusted, test run, ready to go and mounted on a pallet that would make a mechanical engineer proud, and no doubt it did since the machine travelled from Austria to Canada without incident.

I find it odd that there are so many threads about problems with Grizzly machines ranging from poor packaging to jointer tables that are out of plane, and yet so many people are so happy when they repair their machines.

It's less than what I would expect, I would expect the problems to be corrected so that they didn't happen in the future.

Regards, Rod.

you are sooo right. Machines can be crated to greatly reduce shippping damage. Machines can also be adjusted properly before crating. My SawStop was in an amazing crate, and it was perfectly tuned. The crate was expensive, and no doubt more expensive than the crate pics I see here all the time for other import machines. I guarentee that companies balance crating costs against shipping damage and profit maximize. The ones who don't consider customer ill will into the equation crate in cheap crates and they have a lot of damage. Others (apparently General and SawStop) seem to crate them well.

Once again, I think you get what you pay for. If you buy the cheapest, something has to give. Crate costs, and factory adjustments are one place to save money..joe

[Craig Johnson]

My opinion at this point is call them and let them have it.
I wouldnt be able to be nice to them.
They need a fire lit under their "you know what" to come get their stuff.
Time to bail on this purchase dude.

[Gary Max]

From what I am reading---they are working to fix it.
That's the bottom line.
Remember you can buy machines and get No support at all.

[Chuck Wintle]

I would still let Grizzly try to make it right and it seems that only 2 parts are needed, # 601 and # 627, are required to make it right. I say grizzly has been totally up front with you so far so to let them try again seems only fair. as one other poster put it some companies are impossible to deal with after the purchase. jmo :D

[george wilson]

DO NOT TAP THE MACHINE. As said,it will void the warranty. The trouble with Asian castings is,they can,and will,use defective castings with poor quality and even cold shuts (voids) in them,or other metal problems that can cause failure. I'm too tired to read all these posts,just make them fix it. Do not advise dealing with Jet. I hate jet service.

[dan lemkin]

I have gotten numerous posts and PMs which have made me take a fresh look at this whole ordeal. I sent them this email last night, which I think takes a balanced approach to this issue... I don't want to bail just to make a point... but I feel I do have valid concerns - bolstered by all your opinions. If they can't provide the assurance I am looking for, I will probably try to return the device. As they don't have parts readily available while they are stocking this machine, what happens if it drops out of next years catalog.... After all these problems and the removal of their 16" J/P... I wouldn't be surprised to see it gone.

Bo,

If you have been following the forum posts... There is a consensus that I should demand a refund and get rid of this machine. I do have serious concerns about the quality and durability of this machine.

Finding problems with 3 of 3 is very troubling, especially since two were inspected prior to shipping. While there may have been shipping damage, all three have clear evidence of manufacturing defects... Bored out holes that were too big (per shaun) Dings in the polyurethane drive wheel. Hardware that sheered off. Whining bearings, tables out of alignment, poorly tapped holes.

I have spent cumulatively probably 2 full days dealing with exchanges, rebuilding crates, calling and emailing everyone. Given the opportunity cost of my time, this is significant (more than the cost of the machine). I don't feel like investing much more time or effort... I feel I have been incredibly patient, polite, and cooperative throughout this 2 month process. But if the machine fails prematurely, my behavior, choices, and "understanding" will not be rewarded.

Can you inquire about extending the warranty on this machine for 5 or 10 years. I am not thrilled about the prospect of being on my own 10 months from now and after this experience have hardly any faith in the product. If this is not an option, what are my options? Can the machine be returned for full refund?

dan

Addendum: The reason for a J/P and not a seperate jointer and planer is simply space. I have a small 1.5 car garage, and can't accomodate a 12" J and 15" planer.

[CPeter James]

I know you had reasons for wanting a J/P unit and this seemed liked a good buy, but it looks like it is going to become an orphan and in the future parts will become unavailable. I have seem whole machines sidelined because you can't get a small part unless you have it custom machined.

Is it not possible to get a separate jointer and planer that are of standard configuration?

There are problems with anything man made. My wife just bought a new very high end sewing machine and it was DOA. It appears to have been a loose wire in a wiring harness, but it was test run at the factory in Switzerland and did not work when we got it. One of those things.

This machine of yours seems to be "not Grizzly's best effort" and maybe the time has come to move in a different direction. 5 years down the road, what happens if it dies then?

CPeter

[John Hedges]

Do not advise dealing with Jet. I hate jet service.

I have had a definitely different experience. I have found Jet/PM Customer Service to be top notch. One of the best I've dealt with.

[Ben West]

This is a very strange situation and thread. Others here (including myself) have ordered the G0634 and had nothing but good things to say about it. In fact, before buying mine, I scoured the internet for reviews, personally contacted several owners, and didn't have a single report of a manufacturing flaw; rather, everyone that I exchanged emails were glowing about the fit and finish of the machine. After 6 months of owning and using mine, it's been mostly flawless with a great level of fit and finish.

Someone mentioned that perhaps it was a "bad run" of machine. Maybe that explains it. I suspect all manufacturers have this problem occasionally, as we sometimes have reports of disasters with machines that are normally well-regarded. Remember this thread about the MM16? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=35268

I hope this works out to your satisfaction, Dan. And, I hope Grizzly is able to provide some explanation of how these problems happened and how they have been resolved.

Good luck!

[Bob Cooper]

I used to work for NCR which shipped *large* heavy database computers around the world. The would definately break if dropped or turned upside down.

Everyone went out with one of those "tip 'n tell's" shown attached to the final machine shipped. If the machine is tipped at all that device will show it and it's clear that the shipping company did not do its job.

If our customer's received a machine w/the tip 'n tell in error he would just refuse it. Why can't these suppliers do something similar?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I used to work for NCR which shipped *large* heavy database computers around the world. The would definately break if dropped or turned upside down.

Everyone went out with one of those "tip 'n tell's" shown attached to the final machine shipped. If the machine is tipped at all that device will show it and it's clear that the shipping company did not do its job.

If our customer's received a machine w/the tip 'n tell in error he would just refuse it. Why can't these suppliers do something similar?

Some do, Bob, but the machines are a lot more expensive.

[M. A. Espinoza]

I feel I have been incredibly patient, polite, and cooperative throughout this 2 month process. But if the machine fails prematurely, my behavior, choices, and "understanding" will not be rewarded.

Can you inquire about extending the warranty on this machine for 5 or 10 years. I am not thrilled about the prospect of being on my own 10 months from now and after this experience have hardly any faith in the product. If this is not an option, what are my options? Can the machine be returned for full refund?

dan




Dan,

That sounds like a very fair proposition in your circumstance. Reliability would be my #1 concern at this point given the numerous small quality issues that were likely not related to the shipping problems.

Extending your warranty sounds very reasonable given all the hassles.

[Joe Jensen]

I used to work for NCR which shipped *large* heavy database computers around the world. The would definately break if dropped or turned upside down.

Everyone went out with one of those "tip 'n tell's" shown attached to the final machine shipped. If the machine is tipped at all that device will show it and it's clear that the shipping company did not do its job.

If our customer's received a machine w/the tip 'n tell in error he would just refuse it. Why can't these suppliers do something similar?


My SawStop crate had them on it, tip and drop sensors. They can't be that expensive.

[dan lemkin]

This is a very strange situation and thread. Others here (including myself) have ordered the G0634 and had nothing but good things to say about it.

This fact raises an issue. I have had nagging guilt pangs about addressing all these issues in such a public forum... second guessing myself about whether I am just being "picky". Along the way, when the second one came, I asked Charlie this very question... I have provided lots of photos/video to try to explain to others, as well as justify to myself, these issues are real and not imagined or exaggerated. I have gotten verbal confirmation from their engineer that both the planer wheel and the broken piece were due to manufacturers defects.

I realize the scrutiny this thread is getting and the issues it is causing for Grizzly. But at this point, I don't know how much more responsibility or guilt I am willing to assume.

[Ben West]

This fact raises an issue. I have had nagging guilt pangs about addressing all these issues in such a public forum... second guessing myself about whether I am just being "picky".

Dan...you're not being picky at all. Although the Grizzly model is a bit cheaper than its Euro cousins, it still is a $2400 machine...a good bit more than the Jet. For that kind of money, I wouldn't expect or tolerate noisy bearings, broken castings, stripped holes/bolts, etc. Although I don't expect perfection from any machine, I do expect no major manufacturing defects for that price.

My only point with the prior posting is that it seems this kind of phenomena happens with all manufacturers occasionally. The positive reviews of this machine in the past only make your problem more perplexing.

[John Hedges]

I realize the scrutiny this thread is getting and the issues it is causing for Grizzly. But at this point, I don't know how much more responsibility or guilt I am willing to assume.

I am not sure why you feel you should be assuming any guilt or responsibility. You paid for a machine. Three of them have shown up and been defective and damaged in transit. Not sure what about that makes you feel guilty.

Woodworking should be fun, not a headache. If you cant get what you need from a vendor try another vendor until you get something that you can make sawdust with.

[Mike Wellner]

Dan-

Why don't you throw in the towel and step up further and buy a Felder 12" jointer/planer AD351 for $6,212.64 before optional accessories.

You can also purchase an mortiser with it

[Charlie Knauer]

I was over Dans shop when he fired up the second machine. It did have a bearing noise. In addition to a table that was not flat. When you spend this kind of money you want a usable product. If he bought this off of the scratch and dent table I would say you got what you paid for. But he did not, he paid the going price. Yes he could have spent more but that is not the issue. I also saw the other J/P that he received, and the busted parts from inside of it. Hang in there Dan.

Charlie

[Caron Miller]

This whole fiasco reminds me of my troubles with Grizzly. I have some older stuff that has been fine. I think they have cheaped everything as much as they can and it is time to reverse a bit. Maybe they should offer kits. They could be half the price and you could assemble it yourself. It would be a bargain since you are going to do it anyway.

You have more patience than me. Good Luck!

[Dan Zemcik]

Holy cow! After reading this I don't know if I should feel happy or still upset.
I ordered a G0634 on December 26th, was told it would ship on January 23rd, got a phone call on Jan. 20th saying it had shipped out. I was never contacted by the shipping company, so I called Griz back on the 27th. I was then told it never did ship, they never had any to ship me, and I wont see anything until March 27th. Was very upset at this point. Was given a gift certificate as a passifier. Must have had to cancel my shipment to use mine as parts?

[Bruce Page]

"I realize the scrutiny this thread is getting and the issues it is causing for Grizzly. But at this point, I don't know how much more responsibility or guilt I am willing to assume."

Dan, I think you have been exceedingly patient. I likely would have been asking for a refund after the first disaster, certainly after the second.

The best customer service is the one you never need.

[Bob Luciano]

I am thinking happy is the correct choice unless you think this type of experience is something you are sorry you missed. Just had a thought if you still want one and are close enough for the scratch and dent sale there should be at least 2 available

[Don Bullock]

Holy cow! After reading this I don't know if I should feel happy or still PO'd.
I ordered a G0634 on December 26th, was told it would ship on January 23rd, got a phone call on Jan. 20th saying it had shipped out. I was never contacted by the shipping company, so I called Griz back on the 27th. I was then told it never did ship, they never had any to ship me, and I wont see anything until March 27th. Was very pissed at this point. Was given a gift certificate as a passifier. Must have had to cancel my shipment to use mine as parts?

It sounds like either the machines scheduled for shipment to you were diverted to Dan OR Grizzly has realized that they have a problem that needs to be solved before they ship any more G0634s.:eek:

[John Hedges]

As far as that whole 1.5% number goes, I wouldn't pay too much attention to it. I remember my college stats professor first statement in my class

"You can make statistics say anything you want".

Case in point, we think of Grizzly shipments of large equipment here because that is mainly what we talk about. However, lets not forget that Grizzly also sells clamps, vices, router bits, measuring tools, hand tools, nail guns etc. I'm pretty sure they sell a pretty good volume of these smaller goods as well, and they are far less likely to receive shipping damage. So while their total shipments damage rate may be 1.5%, I would venture to guess that their damage rate on large equipment is much higher.

[dan lemkin]

I talked with a high ranking Grizzly official today. He was very understanding and patient, and listened to my concerns. We discussed repair vs return of the device. He was clear that he was happy to do whatever I wanted to try to make this right.

My concern is that as someone mentioned, this may have been a bad batch, and that I am afraid of what might happen down the road. This is a gut feeling - not an objective assessment. But it's impact on my use of the machine is every bit as real. When I first saw it I was psyched... when I look at it now, it is with a sense of frustration and anxiety... (I need to tell myself to "pull up my fricken skirt") But alas... if I don't like the machine due to my experience..... it kinda defeats the purpose of it (as a hobby adjunct)

I am returning the machine and going to get a Hammer or a Minimax FS30. As I am not making price the primary determinant... I was leaning toward the Minimax - any comments, suggestions?

thanks
dan

[Peter Scoma]

They may have had a bad run on these machines

Thats what I'm thinking. You may very well be looking at more serious problems down the road when you can't ask for a replacement. Have them pick it up and get a powermatic or Jet.

PS

[Chris Padilla]

I am returning the machine and going to get a Hammer or a Minimax FS30. As I am not making price the primary determinant... I was leaning toward the Minimax - any comments, suggestions?

thanks
dan

Yes, I have one suggestion:

Please start a new thread!!!! :)

You can hardly go wrong with Minimax. I have an FS-41Elite (16" J/P) from them (3-blade Tersa journal--a breeze to change, dbl-sided, too) and it has been a joy to use. Hammer/Felder also make fine equipment.

[M. A. Espinoza]

But alas... if I don't like the machine due to my experience..... it kinda defeats the purpose of it (as a hobby adjunct)

I am returning the machine and going to get a Hammer or a Minimax FS30. As I am not making price the primary determinant... I was leaning toward the Minimax - any comments, suggestions?

thanks
dan

Especially since you do woodworking for enjoyment you should get something you are going to be happy with.

Euro machines are sweet, you'll be plenty happy. Only suggestions I can offer is start a new thread asking for opinions on your options and make sure the one you buy has mortising either standard or optional.

Unless you have a Multi-Router there is no other mortising method that comes that comes close to a slot mortiser.

[dan lemkin]

I can not believe I didn't register Chris' ZoSo earlier..... See how this little things distract your from the "important" things in life :)

gotta love Zeppelin!

-dan

[Chris Padilla]

Dan,

Zeppelin Rules!! I actually changed it from a drooling Homer Simpson to this over the weekend so you aren't quite ready for the looney bin...yet.... ;)