Drum sanders with rail and stile doors

[Roger Jensen]

I see a number of threads about the benefits of sanding rail and stile doors (e.g. raised panel doors) with drum sanders. However, no one mentions the cross-grain sanding issue on the rails.

Are folks sanding the pieces pre-assembly or sanding them after assembly and then 'fixing' the cross sanding on the rails by hand or with ROS. Perhaps you don't need to worry about it?

Thanks,

Roger

[David DeCristoforo]

"...no one mentions the cross-grain sanding issue..."

What cross grain sanding issue? ;) Actually, it is an issue but not a major one. It usually takes much less effort to sand the cross grain scratches out of the rails than it would take to flatten the whole door "by hand". But it us usually assumed that your final passes are with no more (I mean no less...) than 120 grit. My rule of thumb is to "step back" two grits for the hand sanding. So if my last pass through the drum is with 120, I will start with 80 on the ROS.

[Jason Beam]

The drum sander isn't usually the final sanding in my shop. It's a time saver, but it doesn't eliminate having to final sand - i usually just hand sand, myself, though. 220 grit on the drum and then a 220 grit sanding block after that pretty much takes care of it.

[Sonny Edmonds]

I vote drum sanders for anchors.
The only tool I literally kicked to the curb from my shop! Delta took mine back to Corporate for a total failure analysis.
I got going with some routers, a portable OSS I later mounted to a drop in router plate, and an air driven ROS, and some other items from my tool supplier.
I use my ROS for all my powered finish sanding.
Drum sanders are a joke.
Make your stock and your joinery correctly and you don't need to grind it to finish it.
I'd invest in a wide belt sander with air controlled table pressure (http://grizzly.com/products/15-Wide-Belt-Sander-Open-End-/G9983)before any drum sander out there.
But my ROS has satisfied all sanding needs admirably. :)

[J.R. Rutter]

There are drum sanders, and there are drum sanders. Before I got a widebelt, I used a double drum 37" Extrema that did a great job. It had a 6" steel drum in front and 6" rubber drum in back. We kept it loaded with 120 - 180 and stepped back to 150 to ROS. The only thing it didn't like was panels more than 60% of the full width - not enough space to angle the parts to spread out the glue lines. But yes, the widebelt is the right tool for the job.

For drum sanding doors, I would plan to send everything through at an angle to prevent dips where the drum comes off of the rail. Then ROS everything. Especially if you stain, you need a consistent finished surface everywhere. Step back a grit or two and go for it.

[Peter Quinn]

Not sure I'd agree with Sonny's assessment of drum sanders, but then I've never owned one of those Delta POS models. I have never heard anyone say anything good about those.

I would agree that a wide belt is preferable in most cases, but even the cheapest wide belt capable of processing rail and style frames is far more expensive than a good drum sander. They are large (hard to get in a small shop or basement), they are heavy, the belts are very expensive, they have massive power demands and massive dust collection demands, and most of the big boys require III Phase power or a big rotary converter which itself will cost more than most drum sanders. And they leave the same cross grain scratches as a drum sander. Not a realistic possibility for many shops.

My performax performs well for flattening frames but it leaves both cross grain scratches and long grain scratches that must be dealt with by hand. (Most wide belts oscillate side to side which eliminates the long grain scratches, and now JET has introduced a drum sander that does the same.) What it does not leave are those characteristic "Waves on the ocean" corners left by people that try to flush rail and style intersections with a ROS. Of course few will admit this has ever happened to them, but I tell you I have seen it and it ain't pretty.

I do agree that you must joint your work carefully on well set up machines, and often if all has gone well I forgo drum sanding whenever possible on frame assemblies. But wood moves, machines can be fickle and it doesn't always work out that way. Often a card scraper is all that is required. Panels and precision thicknessing are the primary uses to which I put my drum sander, and no ROS is going to take care of either of those issues as quickly or accurately. At work everything goes through the wide belt, its a business and there is no time for hand tools or card scrapers.

Oh, as David noted, drum sander, wide belt, stroke sander, take your pick, I reiterate none of these machines are the final stop before finishing. They all leave defects that must be removed by other methods. I typically finish at 120g or 150g on the machine then drop back two grits and start again with the ROS. So I'd start with 80-100 grit hand sanding depending on species to get those pesky machine scratches into a nice uniform ROS scratch pattern.

[Joe Chritz]

A drum sander is an entry level get the job done but not fast sorta thing. I have a 24" dual drum and it works well if you understand the short comings. No more than 1/4 turn passes and set up the wraps correctly. They can work very well. In fact I purchased mine mostly for 5 piece doors and it does a great job.

I mill all my stock at .800 and leave a bit extra on the back. I set the panel so that I have enough to flatten the front and the panel at the same time. I pre-stain the profile then assemble the doors. One pass on the front is generally enough to flatten it all. A pass or two on the back to get the final thickness and then to the ROS.

My drums are 100 grit and 120 grit. I go to 80 on the ROS and do the rails to rid the cross grain marks. Then work up from there to whatever the final is.

A wide belt is really an industrial machine unless you can find a steal deal on one. Then you still have to have electrical to run whatever it is you get. There is however, really no comparison between the two. If I ever start a serious business doing woodworking a wide belt is one of the first purchases that would be made.

Joe

[Steve Jenkins]

When I make raised panel doors I like the panel to be proud of the rail and stile fronts. I sand all my doors with a handheld belt sander before using a ros. I sand the stiles first just hitting the rail/stile joint then sand the rails. by watching where I am I can sand the rails right up to the joint so don't have any, or very minimal, crossgrain scratches to worry about

[Wayne Ashing]

The problems with the early Delta's really gave them a bad reputation that just will not seem to die. I bought a new X-5 2 years ago at a price I just could not refuse. I was leary because of the things I had read on the forums, so I followed the setup instruction to the letter, and in about an hour Iwas in bidness. Toughest part was the feed belt but following instructions was the key. As in most problems with equipment, operator error and improper set up is the key. I have not had to make any adjustment in the last 2 years other than to tweek feed belt alignment due to climate/ temperature changes? It is extremely useful in end grain cutting boards, and taking thickness down to the knat's postierior. I have a friend with the Performax 16/32 about the same age and I wouldn't trade him even for a little cash thrown in to sweeten the deal. Patience and good dust collection is the most important rule for smoothe operation on this excellent tool.

[David DeCristoforo]

The question was specifically regarding sanding RP doors. But that is not the only reason to have a drum (or a wide belt) sander by any means. Even if you never make a cabinet door, you might just find that these machines can come in handy now and then...

[Chip Lindley]

As my answer to the *specific question* about using a DS to sand RP doors, I have not found the need for that!

I *final-thickness* all my rail/stile/panel glue-up stock with the ol' Grizz 24" DS before the cope/stick is shaped. Any tear-out is sanded out in this step. Everything fits very closely after milling. Only a touch-up is needed with the ROS at 100 grit to flatten any joints. (typically .003" or less) The ROS sands out any with-grain sanding marks from the DS.

Go to the BORG and look at their *nice* prefab cabinet displays. You will find very fine cross-grain scratches on their product. There are none on *mine*!!

[Sonny Edmonds]

Well for you doughting Tomaso's, I spent 4 months trying more tricks than the manual ever though of having with the "top pick" Delta drum sander by Wood Magazine's reviews.
Not a damn thing would go right with it. With nothing in it it wouldn't track it's feed belt right. Load it and it would tear the belt up on the other side because of the force of the drum sanding the wood.
When Gus asked me how it was going 4 months later, I sure let him know.
He was gracious enough to extend me full store credit for the unit, taxes, and any unused abrasives I had (which was a lot), effective immediately.
Like I said, the only tool I've ever kicked to the curb.
And when Gus's Delta rep got ahold of my summation (1 1/2 pages of the problems) he ordered it returned to the factory for total failure analysis.
I wouldn't have another of anybodies drum sanders if I had room in my rear for two of the things!
And I did get a small oak burl nice and flat and sorta smooth with it the morning they came to pick it up. Only took 50 passes. 50 PASSES!
But I'm a patient man when it comes to my machines, I tend to run them conservatively anyway.
I took the book matched side of that burl and had it smoother, flatter, faster with my air driven ROS.
And then took my air hose and blew the Delta off for the boys to load in the van, never to be seen again.
Delta, and especially Wood Magazine should be ashamed of that POS.
It's the only tool I've ever bought based on a review, and holds the title for the very worst.

[Joe Chritz]

Of course there is always the "lemon" syndrome with any manufacturing. I would be curious to hear what Delta's examination showed.

You are definitely in the minority with the host of problems. The biggest common problem is getting the paper to stay on but that is easily fixed through a few different methods.

Joe

[Rick Fisher]

The Delta Drum sander is a horrible example of such a sander. You bought a really cheap tool and had a bad experience with it. The same bad experience could be had with any type of tool from a cordless drill to a table saw.

I have a small 15" WBS and a 24" Double Drum Sander. I recently purchased a used 36" double drum and will be selling off the 24".

Overall, the WBS is a better tool, but in 37", it would require too much space, power and money for a hobby user. That Delta X drum sander is not in league with a heavier duty machine.

[Mitchell Andrus]

If you had a good one (expensive Pro model) you'd feel differently. You got what you paid for.

In my shop, just about everything goes through the drum sander (24" X 2 Powermatic). Saves me hours per week over hand sanding.

[Chip Lindley]

Sonny,SonnySonny!! You need to calm down Son! But I can certainly have empathy for your terminal case of *Lemon Disease*!! I have *G.E. Appliance Disease* for the same reason! Oven hinges that totally disintegrate and jam shut after a couple hundred frozen pizzas and 6 or 7 Thanksgiving dinners should be outlawed by (UL).

I got NO satisfaction from G.E. and even bought a set of NEW hinges which quickly fell apart! But, at least you got your money back and Delta retrieved their worthless POS!! I had to dump my range and buy a new one. I won't Even buy G.E. light bulbs now!

I won't stop using a stove because I bought one bad one!! A guy's gotta EAT....And SAND! I do use my ol' Grizz 24" DS, and although it has its cheap points, it performs adequately until I can trade up (or make my own DDS!! (thats Dream Drum Sander!!)

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, I have a Powermatic dual drum that I use in my shop and it does a very decent job. I think basing one's opinion on a type of tool by experience with just 1, especially 1 that was obviously a lemon, is at best disingenuous. It's certainly ok to have a bad opinion concerning a sander that you had, but to say they're all a joke shows there's no useful experience to speak of. There are literally thousands of these sanders in use all over the world.
I've sent a lot of work through mine over the years and while it's no belt sander, it certainly does what it's supposed to.....makes me money:D
As said before I sand my doors flat then finish with a ROS. The drum sander finishes at 150 grit and from there it's not too much work to final sand with the ROS. I also sand many other parts with it, it's a great machine as long as you understand what it will and won't do.
good luck,
JeffD

[Chris Padilla]

I assume Sonny's speaking about the 18-36 open end Delta drum sander??

I picked up a used one and after killing a full Saturday fiddling with it, I have it sanding resawn veneers down to 1/16" for me.

The height-adjusting mechanim is a joke but thankfully, I don't have to adjust it all that much. I'm not sure I would use it for sanding anything but veneers and even at that, it is mind-numbingly slow but does a satisfactory job for me. One needs a TON of patience with these machines and excellent dust collection. I literally spent two entire days sanding about 20 walnut veneers I had resawn...but they came out great!

Getting the feeder belt to track properly is also a shot in the dark. I gave up on it and just developed a method to slide it back over after it walked off enough on me. Then suddenly I decided to adjust the tension on it just one more time and suddenly, it was tracking perfectly and no long walks off. Amazing...just pure dumb luck there, I assure you.

Anyway, that's my experience thus far with this sander.

[Ron Bontz]

What Dave said in his first response is exactly what I did on my last set of doors and it worked out great. 120 on the drum then 80 and 120 with the ROS. My raise panels were made proud of the frame so only the panel was drum sanded on the front. I prefer cutters that cut the rail and stile joints both face down so the fronts are always even providing I am paying attention. :)

[Ron Bontz]

Seems we got off track a bit. But given the monies I would have a PM 25" or a 37" preferably. Even in that little thing I call a shop. But being a member of the po folks club, I'm gonna have to be happy with my 22-44 Jet. It's slow but does the job. Either way their handy.:)

[Peter Quinn]

Forgot to mention I'm using a performax 22-44 Pro, open ended drum sander, I'm quite happy with it. Slower than a wide belt but it fits in my shop. I have flushed up 40" wide table tops with it, not problem. I use a 37" 15HP wide belt at work, different thing all together, but it costs more than 10X what a drum sander does before considering power and dust requirements. For precision sanding on small parts, particularly on short parts, I actually prefer the drum sander. Ever seen a wide belt suck up a short drawer front and spit it out? Or grind it up? Not cute. Not that I've done that mind you......:D

[Phil Thien]

I had never considered using my drum sander to sand R&S doors. Quite honestly I woulda thought the "sanding against the grain" police would have shown up and shut me down.

I'll have to try it next time.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Seems we got off track a bit..."

Well... yes. Just a bit. But that's the way it goes when you get guys talking about tools! FWIW (which probably ain't much):

I used to have a big old wide belt machine. It had all the "good stuff"... dual drums, adjustable platen, air controlled oscillating and tracking, etc. Only thing was the size... this thing was HUGE!!! It took two forklifts to move it.

I sold it years ago when I downsized my shop and replaced it with a 37" Woodmaster drum sander. Having also spent many hours waiting for pieces to come out the other side of some pretty nice "modern" widebelts (Timesavers, SCMI, etc.) I can claim substantial experience with these machines. And I have to say that the Woodmaster is a great machine that will do just about anything a good widebelt will do short of "polishing" on the platen, costs a heck of a lot less and fits in my smaller shop much more gracefully.

I have sanded thousands of doors on this machine and close to thousands of solid wood chessboards (which have to be very flat) and I have never felt that I lacked any capacity. So, in general, I would say that these machines are a good investment with the caveat that (as usual) you have to be willing to buy a decent machine, not a toy.

[Sonny Edmonds]

Sonny,SonnySonny!! You need to calm down Son! But I can certainly have empathy for your terminal case of *Lemon Disease*!! I have *G.E. Appliance Disease* for the same reason! Oven hinges that totally disintegrate and jam shut after a couple hundred frozen pizzas and 6 or 7 Thanksgiving dinners should be outlawed by (UL).

I got NO satisfaction from G.E. and even bought a set of NEW hinges which quickly fell apart! But, at least you got your money back and Delta retrieved their worthless POS!! I had to dump my range and buy a new one. I won't Even buy G.E. light bulbs now!

I won't stop using a stove because I bought one bad one!! A guy's gotta EAT....And SAND! I do use my ol' Grizz 24" DS, and although it has its cheap points, it performs adequately until I can trade up (or make my own DDS!! (thats Dream Drum Sander!!)

I'm calm, Chip, I'm calm.
Ommmmmmm.....
Ommmmmmm.....
Ommmmmmm.....
See, just like a Hairy Christyna (sp). :confused: :D (accurately described the arm pits and legs of the girls. :eek::p )

Nope, not just my experience with that machine. Others too, and in talking with others still who dumped their drum sanders for failure to perform.
I've known and seen fellers who get by with theirs, Performax was one back then that seemed to satisfy.
But I am on a home shop level. I'm sure not interested (other than looking) at the 20-50K $ range machines. So when a few of these "pro's" start bantering about such huge, and mostly severely unpractical machines it is just their puffed out chests and BS. Calling the lessor machines "toys".
After all, if I hadn't explored real mills and production dust collection systems, I would still be fiddling around in piles of saw dust. But I'm not.
And I probably have more connected horse power in my shop than some "Pro" shops do. In a 20' x 20' suburban garage, for pete's sakes.
But hey, I love to pick up a scraper now and then and shave down some beautiful wood. I don't sand everything. ;)
Naw Chip, I'm gooden calm Buddy.
And I know what works for me, and what doesn't. And I've been around field and farm and know what to shovel, and what not to step in.
Now, for some real entertainment, check this out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofn8-3SWd8M). :D
Be talking to Ya Chip. ;)

[Ron Bontz]

Ok. Now you have gone and done it. I have looked at Woodmasters sanders online on more than one occassion in my never ending quest to find a deal on a 26 to 37 inch dual drum. I have never had the chance to fiddle with one though. Are they ,in your opinion, as good as say a PM dual drum? Yes yes I know that's a dangerous thing to ask. But St. Louis is not that far from Dorthy's house. I am only 51 but the tools I buy these days, I plan to keep until well, you get the idea. Those are some nice chess tables BTW. Too rich for my wallet.:)

[Joe Chritz]

From my research Woodmaster is "the" drum sander to have.

Joe

[Rick Potter]

I waited to buy my Woodmaster 37" for a couple years, waiting for my 'perfect storm' of sale price, extra's thrown in, free mobile base, and free shipping. When it finally came I jumped on it.

By the way, the Shop Fox mobile base wasn't worth the wait. The wheel brackets flex, and the wheels are so small you can hardly push it (about 1100 pounds). I am making mods for bigger wheels right now.

Rick Potter

[David DeCristoforo]

" Are they ,in your opinion, as good as say a PM dual drum?"

All I can tell you is that I am very happy with mine (Woodmaster). It's been a workhorse in my shop for going on ten years now and I would buy another in a hot second. I have no real "hands on" experience with any other drum sanding machines so I have no basis to on which evaluate them. My comment about buying a "decent machine, not a toy" was not directed at any specific machine. I was simply suggesting that it's not really fair to pass judgement on the entire genre based on an experience with a cheap piece of junk.

[Paul Johnstone]

I didn't read the entire thread, but here's what I do with a drum sander.

Sand all the parts before gluing/finishing. When I assemble the door, there will only be a tiny misalignment in the rails/styles (if any). That is taken care of with 10 seconds with the ROS. IMO, if you have to do a lot of sanding after you assemble the door, then you did something wrong.

Drum sanders are great tools. You need patience with them though. So many people want to take off to much. That is how you get the straight line scratches.

I typically only run it through 2-3 times at a very low pass. I have dual drums, so I use 120/180. No need to ROS.

If you are doing multiple passes, it is a good idea on every 2nd or 3rd pass to run the wood through WITHOUT CHANGING THE SANDING DEPTH. If you hear wood being sanded off, you were too aggressive to that point. Keep running the wood through at the current setting until you barely get any off. This is key.

I really dislike having people come over to borrow my sander, because no matter how much I stress that they should only do 1/16 turn at a time, repeat at the same height, etc.. they always get impatient and crank it down unless I am standing right by them. Then they burn their wood and ruin my paper, or get deep scratches and then get mad at me for my "crappy" tool <rolleyes>. Now I just do it for them, so it doesn't cost me about $40 in wrecked sandpaper paper.

Also, I had the Delta open ended model for a long time before upgrading (I think it was 18" wide). It was a fine machine, as long as you were gentle with it and did not treat it like a planer.

[Chris Padilla]

If you are doing multiple passes, it is a good idea on every 2nd or 3rd pass to run the wood through WITHOUT CHANGING THE SANDING DEPTH. If you hear wood being sanded off, you were too aggressive to that point. Keep running the wood through at the current setting until you barely get any off. This is key.

I really dislike having people come over to borrow my sander, because no matter how much I stress that they should only do 1/16 turn at a time, repeat at the same height, etc.. they always get impatient and crank it down unless I am standing right by them. Then they burn their wood and ruin my paper, or get deep scratches and then get mad at me for my "crappy" tool <rolleyes>. Now I just do it for them, so it doesn't cost me about $40 in wrecked sandpaper paper.

Also, I had the Delta open ended model for a long time before upgrading (I think it was 18" wide). It was a fine machine, as long as you were gentle with it and did not treat it like a planer.

With my Delta 18-36, I actually run my veneers through twice for every height change and it seemed to work well for me but holy god in heaven is it mind-numbingly slow and boring.

1/16 turns are pretty minimal. On the Delta, a 1/4 turn is supposed to be 1/64" change and that is the max I do and it seemed to work fine. Your 1/16 turn would be 1/256"!! Patience is even more key in your situation! haha

In my case, I was sanding down my veneers to get them to 1/16". I tried to resaw them all to 3/32" but I think I ended up closer to 1/8" so it took a while to sand 'em all down. Also, I certainly didn't get it 1/8" the whole length of the board (I'm still learning to resaw). Fun, fun, fun. :D

[Karl Brogger]

I had a 37" Woodmaster. Sanded hundreds of doors with it, drawer fronts, and drawer parts. I'd send stuff through at an angle just so there wasn't that shock load so to speak so the drum wouldn't slow down rapidly. I'd also alternate the angle so I would be sanding against the sanding marks from the previous pass. I don't know if it was just in my head or not, but it seemed to remove material faster. When you're staring at a stack of 80 doors, you know it'll take forever and a day to get them done.

I actually like crossgrain scratches. I sand everything with a orbital after it comes out. It gives you a good measure of when everything is sanded correctly. No cross grain? Then its done. I have a widebelt now, and I still sand things with that in the same manner.

BTW- nothing that comes out of a drum/widebelt is done being sanded, you still gotta hit it with an orbital to buff it out.

[frank shic]

i agree with chris: i don't use more than 1/4 wheel turns on my drum sander and yes, it's MIND NUMBINGLY slow but it sure does beat having all those valleys that usually occur from sanding just the rail/stile intersections lol

[Chip Lindley]

Well Sonny, I believe all things happen for the best! At least your aversion to drum sanders will leave one less bidder to compete, should I find the deal of the century (and the century is young yet!)

I gotta lotta HP too, in just a double garage. I counted 53hp without using my toes!
P.S. FartMan is a GASS!

[Sonny Edmonds]

Yep, an amazing repertoire. He must have a tube from his intake to his exhaust. Amazing volume! :eek:

You can have all the drum sanders you wanna bid on. I'll watch. ;)
I'll even help you gather them up if you want.
I've picked up worse things in my day. Baby diapers, and barf come to mind. LMAO! :D

Email Fartman to your friends. :p

[Rick Fisher]

I have a 24" General Drum sander which I have owned for about a year. The more I use it, the more I like it.

I also just purchased a 7 year old 36" General double drum sander. Its sitting in a crate until I can clear a space for it. It draws 33 amps x 220V power, so I need to do some wiring as well.

I expect the 36" drum sander to be a much more impressive machine than the 24". It has double the power and bigger drums. Lately, the only complaint with the 24" sander is it being underpowered on wider panels (18" and up).

[Steve Nouis]

A aggresive random orbit here, it doesn't take long. I'd think about the same as getting rid of the cross scratches unless the stiles and rails are mismatched bad, then the .007 that a drum sander take off would take a long time also. A wide belt sander would be nice if money and space allowed. Steve

[J.R. Rutter]

I see a number of threads about the benefits of sanding rail and stile doors (e.g. raised panel doors) with drum sanders. However, no one mentions the cross-grain sanding issue on the rails.

Are folks sanding the pieces pre-assembly or sanding them after assembly and then 'fixing' the cross sanding on the rails by hand or with ROS. Perhaps you don't need to worry about it?

Thanks,

Roger

This thread has gotten into a lot of other pros/cons of drum sanders, but the main thing that sanding after assembly does is to flush everything into the same plane and remove any glue squeeze out residue. You get cross grain scratches everywhere if you feed at an angle, which is how these sanders work best. Then as a last step, ROS to create a finished surface, sanding to the bottom of the scratches left by the drum. The finer you go on the drum, the less hand sanding is needed. That is why double drums are nice, once they are dialed in.