Ripping Thick Stock

[Mark Kristan]

Well I bought the saw and have it pretty much set up. One of the first things I was planning to do with it would involve ripping 4X stock into thin strips. The one manufacturer whose blades are readily available in my area which specifies how thick of stock I should use their blades on, indicates up to 2.75 inches. Is this pretty much a standard thing or should I try to determine this spec for different blades and buy one that can rip through at least 3.5 inches? If you typically don't cut stock thicker than 2.75 inches with a 10 inch blade, can I get away with cutting about half way through then flipping it over, or do I really need a band saw to accomplish this? I have a 3HP cabinet-style saw. TIA.

Mark

[Joe Chritz]

Can you even get the top of a 10" blade 4 inches above the table?

Ripping a 4 inch thick chunk is a pretty big order for any tablesaw. With careful feed rate, sharp tooling and a dedicated rip blade it would work.

I would be nervous while running that through, there is a lot of stock to deal with. Yes you can cut and flip if needed. A bandsaw is really the tool for that job I think.

Joe

[Alan DuBoff]

Well I bought the saw and have it pretty much set up. One of the first things I was planning to do with it would involve ripping 4X stock into thin strips. The one manufacturer whose blades are readily available in my area which specifies how thick of stock I should use their blades on, indicates up to 2.75 inches. Is this pretty much a standard thing or should I try to determine this spec for different blades and buy one that can rip through at least 3.5 inches? If you typically don't cut stock thicker than 2.75 inches with a 10 inch blade, can I get away with cutting about half way through then flipping it over, or do I really need a band saw to accomplish this? I have a 3HP cabinet-style saw. TIA.

Mark
Mark,

Re-think your cut, and consider another method. Ripping 4x stock on the table saw is a hefty cut, and ripping it into thin strips is not smart. This is better suited for a band saw, IMO.

I have a 5HP direct drive tablesaw, and I was ripping wide section of 2 1/2" thick laminated stock a week or so back, I had about 3" of blade exposed.

What type of saw do you have, out of curiosity?

Certainly it can be done, but the cut you describe presents a lot of risk.

Your talking about ripping thin sections of stock that is 1 1/2" thicker than this!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=105223&d=1230692378

[Dennis Puskar]

Well I bought the saw and have it pretty much set up. One of the first things I was planning to do with it would involve ripping 4X stock into thin strips. The one manufacturer whose blades are readily available in my area which specifies how thick of stock I should use their blades on, indicates up to 2.75 inches. Is this pretty much a standard thing or should I try to determine this spec for different blades and buy one that can rip through at least 3.5 inches? If you typically don't cut stock thicker than 2.75 inches with a 10 inch blade, can I get away with cutting about half way through then flipping it over, or do I really need a band saw to accomplish this? I have a 3HP cabinet-style saw. TIA.

Mark
Bandsaw would be the best and safest way to cut thin strips. But it can be done on a table saw.

Dennis

[Chris True]

I did 2&7/8" last week and that's about as thick as the saw blade can handle. The max blade height on my Uni is 3". Anything taller than the cut I did requires you to flip it and pass it through twice. It would also require you to remove the splitter which makes it a much riskier cut. I'd do it on the bandsaw myself...

[Andrew Joiner]

I have ripped/resawn 1/8"x 8" wide veneers on my 10" cabinet saw. My 10" has room for a 12" blade. If it's softwood and a good blade I start with a 2" deep cut. Then 3" and then 4"deep, flip and do the same to total 8" of cut.
In hardwood I take less with each pass. The saw tell you how fast to feed by the sound.
With a Matsushita 40 tooth rip blade I get a finish cut better than any bandsawn cut I've seen. Ready for 80 grit RO sander.

I use a feather board and push stick. I have done cuts like this for 40 years and have never had an injury. In fact 40 years ago I used HSS blades because carbide was to costly. With HSS you go real slow and take very shallow cuts but it still worked!

You could easily rip a 4x4 on a 3 HP tablesaw IMHO.

[Chris Padilla]

Yikes! Scary...this is what bandsaws excel at and, IMO, are much safer in doing....

[Paul Demetropoulos]

Mark,

I read your posts here on SMC and I'm assuming you are new to woodworking or at least new to the table saw. That being the case I can't believe any sensible person would advise that you make these cuts.

It's not a matter of the whether the saw is capable of ripping that stock, with all due respect, you are not ready to do this procedure and anyone that suggests you should attempt it is irresponsible.

A 3hp saw could launch that 4x stock back at you and kill you. This is not hyperbole. You need to get some knowledge about table saw use before you make your first cut, and that cut should not be ripping a 4x4.

I saw in another thread someone recommended that you get Kelly Mehler's
table saw book. I think most would agree that his book is one of the best and very strong on safety. At the very least you need to read and absorb information on basic safe procedures and then make practice cuts on straight flat 3/4" scrap stock to get used to the techniques and your new saw.

There are more than just a few things to know. For instance; how short a board can be safely ripped, at what minimum width do you need to use a push stick, where should you stand when pushing the board through the blade, what hand do you use to complete the cut, when do you release the board completely with the other hand? Can you instantly turn off the motor if you get in trouble in the middle of a cut, which you most certainly will at times.

For cutting larger stock you need both infeed and outfeed support, featherboards, hold downs. Would you know where to place the feather board so as not to pinch the blade and cause a kickback? How and when do you need to use a splitter?If there are even a few of these things that you don't know you shoudln't be using your saw yet.

I'm new to this board but not to woodworking, I've got many hundreds of hours logged in the shop and believe me when I say that you don't want to learn safety lessons the hard way. You're obviously eager to get started but you need to be smart about this. You can make mistakes using these tools where you won't get a second chance.

I'm shocked and disappointed that people who have already posted to this thread that I know are knowledgable from reading their other postings haven't more forcefully warned you.

[Dewey Torres]

I have ripped/resawn 1/8"x 8" wide veneers on my 10" cabinet saw. My 10" has room for a 12" blade. If it's softwood and a good blade I start with a 2" deep cut. Then 3" and then 4"deep, flip and do the same to total 8" of cut.
In hardwood I take less with each pass. The saw tell you how fast to feed by the sound.
With a Matsushita 40 tooth rip blade I get a finish cut better than any bandsawn cut I've seen. Ready for 80 grit RO sander.

I use a feather board and push stick. I have done cuts like this for 40 years and have never had an injury. In fact 40 years ago I used HSS blades because carbide was to costly. With HSS you go real slow and take very shallow cuts but it still worked!

You could easily rip a 4x4 on a 3 HP tablesaw IMHO.


Please tell me you are kidding.!!!

This is advice to a new woodworker.:eek:

[Wilbur Pan]

Another vote for doing this on a bandsaw.

[Mark Kristan]

Thanks for the feedback all. Yup, I'm an amateur woodworker. As a matter of fact I've never so much as used a table saw before I bought this one (a Steel City, 30" rails, granite top). I'm really not planning to do any super tricky cuts anytime soon and it seems there is near concensus that a band saw is probably the way to go. What I need to do is add facing, perhaps about a half inch or so, to 4X4's placed about five feet apart on the walls of a metal building that I'm turning into a woodshop(probably around fifteen or so of em). For the record, I did by Kelly Mehler's book and refer to it a lot.

Mark

[Steve Southwood]

Go for it. It won't hurt that bad.

Ok, kind of dramatic. Blade stuck barely thru top. Part kicked back. Operator was in way too much of a hurry. Thumb went right over the exposed part of blade.

[scott spencer]

Hi Mark - While a BS is a safer way to make the cut, a BS blade inherently leaves very pronounced saw marks that will need to be removed before finishing. If the marks aren't an obstacle, then rip them with a BS.

A TS blade will also leave marks but they're typically less pronounced and easier to remove. Your 3hp saw should have little trouble ripping to full blade height with a good 24T ripping blade. There are some bulk rippers that have 10T-18T teeth for extra thick stock, but they'll leave even more saw marks than the 24T blade. Most saws won't rip much beyond the suggested max anyway...one work around that I've used quite a lot is to resaw (http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/2005/02/18/wb/) the strips by cutting just a tad over halfway thru, flipping the piece end over end and then completing the cut. You'll get better results if the wood is flat and straight. With good hold downs and proper push shoe, this isn't an overly difficult or particulary dangerous task, but all cutting tasks have some element of danger. It's best to give a practice try or two. I typically use just one featherboard before the blade....the pics below will give some idea. Some clean up of the surface may still be necessary depending on how smoothly things go.

106556 106558106557

[Joe Chritz]

I know people who have smoked for 20, 30 or 40 years and are still healthy. It doesn't make it safe.

Use safe processes for all operations, especially ones that are more risky. All woodworking is a "calculated risk" operation.

I wasn't aware that the cuts were going to be all very narrow and very thick (reading is fundamental), so with that in mind I would do this on a bandsaw unless I had some industrial equipment available.

Joe

[Byron Trantham]

Well do I really need a band saw to accomplish this? TIA. Mark

In a word - YES! :o

[Jim Becker]

For ripping that thickness of stock, I'd move to the bandsaw. I can get close to that with a 12" blade on my slider (it's set up for 12" blades), but I find that much blade exposure "scary", even with my hands well away from it due to the way my machine works.

[Alan DuBoff]

one work around that I've used quite a lot is to resaw (http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/2005/02/18/wb/) the strips by cutting just a tad over halfway thru, flipping the piece end over end and then completing the cut.
I don't advocate this cut myself, but as stated in this thread it will work.

It doesn't surprise me that you would think of this cut Scott, and maybe it is safer than I believe. I know you often think of solutions on your table saw, and use it...as an example, I remember you cutting dovetails on your table saw, I would never attempt that.

I don't often attempt cuts on my table saw that I can accomplish on another tool safer, in this case the band saw. You say cleanup to clean the cut from the band saw? Modern blades don't leave that much in the way of marks, I use the Woodslicer, works ok for me. But I do usually clean things up after using it. I'd rather take a pass over the jointer/planer than cut that stuff on the table saw.

I think it's important to realize that our table saws are not our only tools in the shop. While it will work for many operations, it also presents the most danger in the way of kickback, and I take most every precaution I can when using it, so that doesn't happen.

[Andrew Joiner]

Great discussion. I'm glad that everyone pointed out that Mark has never used a table saw before. I was sharing my method on how I'd rip a 4x4.
It works for me and has been safe.

Thanks scott for your photo's. My experience tells me the first photo without the feather boards is NOT AS SAFE as the second photo. Hands close to blade are NEVER as safe as push sticks,push shoes and featherboards.

The second photo with the push sticks and featherboards is close to the method I use. I would NOT use a featherboard on the far side of the blade,just one featherboard on the front side.

I'd say ripping a 4x4 with the blade "captured" in the wood(not exposed) with a featherboard and push shoe is safer than ripping a 3/4" thick board without a featherboard and push shoe. A person new to the table saw may hand feed the first test cut they ever do on a table saw as you see in many photo's. So, with that in mind the method I described might be safe, even for a beginner.









Hi Mark - While a BS is a safer way to make the cut, a BS blade inherently leaves very pronounced saw marks that will need to be removed before finishing. If the marks aren't an obstacle, then rip them with a BS.

A TS blade will also leave marks but they're typically less pronounced and easier to remove. Your 3hp saw should have little trouble ripping to full blade height with a good 24T ripping blade. There are some bulk rippers that have 10T-18T teeth for extra thick stock, but they'll leave even more saw marks than the 24T blade. Most saws won't rip much beyond the suggested max anyway...one work around that I've used quite a lot is to resaw (http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/2005/02/18/wb/) the strips by cutting just a tad over halfway thru, flipping the piece end over end and then completing the cut. You'll get better results if the wood is flat and straight. With good hold downs and proper push shoe, this isn't an overly difficult or particulary dangerous task, but all cutting tasks have some element of danger. It's best to give a practice try or two. I typically use just one featherboard before the blade....the pics below will give some idea. Some clean up of the surface may still be necessary depending on how smoothly things go.

106556 106558106557

[Alan DuBoff]

Great discussion. I'm glad that everyone pointed out that Mark has never used a table saw before. I was sharing my method on how I'd rip a 4x4. It works for me and has been safe.
As long as you feel comfortable with it, that is what counts.

Kelly Mehler does show this cut in his book, "The Table Saw Book".

I don't have the text handy, but he doesn't highly recommend it, and I think that is where my reservation comes from. I could see doing it for decent sized rips, but this thread mentioned ripping thin sections off the 4x stock.

This is certainly one of those cases where "caveat emptor" comes to mind...in the sense that we make our own bed and then we sleep in it.;)

[Jim Finn]

I have ripped/resawn 1/8"x 8" wide veneers on my 10" cabinet saw. My 10" has room for a 12" blade. If it's softwood and a good blade I start with a 2" deep cut. Then 3" and then 4"deep, flip and do the same to total 8" of cut.
In hardwood I take less with each pass. The saw tell you how fast to feed by the sound.
With a Matsushita 40 tooth rip blade I get a finish cut better than any bandsawn cut I've seen. Ready for 80 grit RO sander.

I use a feather board and push stick. I have done cuts like this for 40 years and have never had an injury. In fact 40 years ago I used HSS blades because carbide was to costly. With HSS you go real slow and take very shallow cuts but it still worked!

You could easily rip a 4x4 on a 3 HP tablesaw IMHO.
.............I also do this cut often, in hardwood and soft. Hundreds of times actualy. My 10" Ridgid saw is not as big as yours and I have had the motor slow so much I hit the kill button but I never let the wood get out of control.

[J.R. Rutter]

People have been doing this for as long as there have been table saws. Be smart about setting up. Don't try it on stock that is warped or bowed. Don't stand right behind the cut. I try to cut just shy of halfway through, so there is a thin sliver holding it together that is easy to break apart by hand. Be aware of where the blade is and where your hands are. I often stick some masking tape to the table beside the cut to give me a visual aid of where the blade is sticking up out of the table.

[Gary Breckenridge]

Let me see: a rookie, a 3hp saw and some really thick stock. Well Mr. Sawmill I hope you health care is paid up.:eek:
Load those puppies on the roof of your Jaguar and get them professionally sawn.

[Bill Keehn]

As long as you feel comfortable with it, that is what counts.


Kelly Mehler does show this cut in his book, "The Table Saw Book".

I don't have the text handy, but he doesn't highly recommend it, and I think that is where my reservation comes from. I could see doing it for decent sized rips, but this thread mentioned ripping thin sections off the 4x stock.

This is certainly one of those cases where "caveat emptor" comes to mind...in the sense that we make our own bed and then we sleep in it.;)

Mark, I agree with Alan that this method is better suited to larger rips. The preferred method for this cut is to use a bandsaw. I just saw a guy on Roy Underhill's Woodright's shop cut a veneer with a handsaw and it looked darn good! A bandsaw will waste half as much material as your table saw.

While I don't recommed it either, on the chance that you might attempt it anyway, I'll tell what I would do if I had to make this cut on the cabinet saw. I've only been doing this a couple years myself, so these guys might even have better ideas.

I think with the proper preparation, the flip it over method can be made much safer (but still not as safe as the bandsaw).
1) Read the manual and Tune up your saw. It is new and you need to insure that the fence is parallel to the blade and the tracks.
2) You have to remove the splitter, but if you have a riving knife you should use it.
3) You should also use something like these Anti-kickback rollers. They keep the stock down on the table and don't allow it to move backwards.
4) If the pieces are long, get an outfeed table or support stand. You don't want the end of the board rising off the table as it falls.
5) Never rip small pieces between the blade and the fence. This is a kickback situation. For small pieces you should let them fall to the outside. Bear in mind you will need to readjust the fence after each cut and that once you reach a certain point, the stock will be too narrow to use.
6) Get a feather board. I'd position it about 2" in front of where the blade will contact the stock. Any closer to the blade and the blade could bind or the cutoff piece could become trapped between the blade and feather board and kickback again.
7) Get a push stick of sufficient length. You will push the stock on the fence side of the blade until it is well past the blade. You don't want any part of your body reaching over the blade. Never get your hand within 3" of the blade even if wood is between you and the blade.
8) Watch your body position. Don't stand directly behind the blade (danger zone) or even between the slots.
9) Your stock should be good and solid . If it has a split it could self-destruct on the saw and send fragments flying.
10) Your stock should have two reasonably flat surfaces at 90 degrees to each other. One against the table and the other against the fence. You could use hand planes or a jointer to accomplish this.
11) And of course don't forget vision protection and dust collection.

Now I know this sounds like a lot of things to worry about. You might wonder if everybody else really bothers with all those things. The answer is yes and no. Most people wouldn't do these things in this case because they know the bandsaw is a better tool for the job. However there are plenty of other tricky cuts that are better on a table saw and these precautions are not unusual. I pretty much consider a similar list of things for each of my power tools each time I setup for a new operation. Take your time and do it right.

[Chris Padilla]

I just saw a guy on Roy Underhill's Woodright's shop cut a veneer with a handsaw and it looked darn good! A bandsaw will waste half as much material as your table saw.

Wow...that would've been cool to see. How thin a veneer? That takes a very sharp saw and skill way beyond me!

As far as the waste material between a bandsaw and a table saw, I don't know if it is quite that good. Close, I think. Remember, a table saw can yield glue ready joints but I seriously doubt one can get that on a bandsaw. I get close with my Trimaster blade (1/16" kerf) but the veneer still needs some sanding.

I'm still working on the ultimate resaw blade to maximize yield from stock but 50% of the yield is resawing dead straight...which is something I'm still working on! :)

[Bill Keehn]

Wow...that would've been cool to see. How thin a veneer? That takes a very sharp saw and skill way beyond me!

As far as the waste material between a bandsaw and a table saw, I don't know if it is quite that good. Close, I think. Remember, a table saw can yield glue ready joints but I seriously doubt one can get that on a bandsaw. I get close with my Trimaster blade (1/16" kerf) but the veneer still needs some sanding.

I'm still working on the ultimate resaw blade to maximize yield from stock but 50% of the yield is resawing dead straight...which is something I'm still working on! :)

The Veneers were on the order of 3/32". They required very little in the way of scraping. They used a toothing plane to prepare the glue side for hammer veneering. It was indeed very cool. He was using a reproduction of an antique ripsaw with little or no set to the teeth. I'm not sure you could do anything like this with today's handsaws, as they are poor imitations of the originals. Maybe you could do it with a japanese saw.

He started with a board he planed until it was dead flat. Then he used a marking gauage with a knife blade edge to score a line all the way around the face of the board he was going to saw off. After that he clamped the board in the vice at an angle and started cutting at the corner, following the marks on the two adjacent edges he could see. He claimed that once you get started the saw wants to naturally follow the score marks. Then he worked his way to the other corner on the same end and continued to saw down the lenght of the board.

I haven't tried it yet but I am going to.

Well for the bandsaw kerf, I'm going off my Amana blade with a 1/8" kerf versus my 3/4" Timberwolf resaw blade which is only .025" thick and has a kerf of .049" (1/20").

Last month I took a class on bandsawn veneers and inlays with David Marks, and trust me, your kerf can be less than 1/16" and your veneer can be 1/32" thick and glue ready right off the bandsaw. The face might need to be cleaned up with a couple passes from a hand scraper before finishing, but that thats about it.

You need a good bandsaw, a good blade, a good homemade veneer sawing fence, and you need to spend a good hour or so fine tuning your setup. But the results are impressive.

David's recommendation was to throw away your resaw bar as it is a poor excuse for a tall fence. The bar is to allow you to pivot the stock to account for drift. Instead he says you need to align your fence with the line of drift.

He puts a lot of tension on the blade. The 1/2" Timberwolf blade he used on the 14" Powermatic was set to the tension recommended for a 1" blade, even though the Timberwolf is a low tension blade.

He always cuts the veneer off between the fence and the blade, since it allows him to easily repeat the cut at exactly the same thickness.

As I said the magic is in the setup. Once it was done, and he demonstrated, he let everyone in the class cut some too. Our results were as good as his.

Now after you cut an inch or so of veneer, the tension released in the board may cause it to cup slightly. At that point it's a good idea to flatten it again by shaving 1/32" off at the jointer or planer, so there is a little waste there, but you'd have the same problem on the table saw.

P.S. ANY vibration in the bandsaw setup translates to marks in the veneer. You need to make sure the tires are free of built up sawdust. David recommended the link type belt for the motor. Lock the mobile base if you have one.
P.P.S Sorry, the bandsawn veneer was not 1/32" thick. It was slightly less than 1/16" thick, which I assumed was 1/32", but it was more like 3/64". After a little hand scraping it was probably closer to 1/32". I remember that it was Jatoba, and if you held it to the light it was slightly translucent. However it was not as thin as knife sliced veneer.

[Robby Tacheny]

I have only been woodworking for 5 or so years and now have all of the tools mentioned.

I have had my finger go into the blade while trying to resaw on a tablesaw and my finger looked worse than the picture in a previous post. I kept the piece of wood around to remind myself not to be stupid.

Recently while cutting bandsaw boxes with a 1/4" 6 TPI blade on my bandsaw, I also accidentally hit the blade twice with my hands. Once with my pointer finger and once with the side of my hand. Neither time did I even break the skin.

I realized two things.

1. My reflexes must be much better now than when I was resawing on the tablesaw
2. Nicking a finger on a bandsaw is WAY more desireable than nicking a finger on a tablesaw.

My advice to you is to use a bandsaw and just clean up the saw marks with a handplane or jointer.

-R

[Bill Keehn]

I have only been woodworking for 5 or so years and now have all of the tools mentioned.

I have had my finger go into the blade while trying to resaw on a tablesaw and my finger looked worse than the picture in a previous post. I kept the piece of wood around to remind myself not to be stupid.

Recently while cutting bandsaw boxes with a 1/4" 6 TPI blade on my bandsaw, I also accidentally hit the blade twice with my hands. Once with my pointer finger and once with the side of my hand. Neither time did I even break the skin.

I realized two things.

1. My reflexes must be much better now than when I was resawing on the tablesaw
2. Nicking a finger on a bandsaw is WAY more desireable than nicking a finger on a tablesaw.

My advice to you is to use a bandsaw and just clean up the saw marks with a handplane or jointer.

-R
Sorry, but if you really believe your reflexes have gotten faster or that getting nicked with a bandsaw isn't so bad, then you haven't learned your lesson. If you continue to think like that and ignore the 3" rule even after having these close calls then it seems like you are won't stop until you hurt yourself severely. Any accidental contact with the blade like that would make me sit down and seriously reflect on my safety habits.

My advice to you is to take that piece of wood you kept from your table saw incident and and use it as a pushstick at the bandsaw.

[Robby Tacheny]

I think you misinterpreted the humor of my post. ;) Of course I don't think my reflexes have gotten better!

My point is that you should work with the tool better suited to the task to reduce the chance of injury. Accidents happen though.

I have cut my hands open worse trying to get something out of those hard to open plastic packages than all but one woodworking injury.

-R

[Bill Keehn]

Sorry to get all serious on you :o. In fact I don't entirely disagree, but I still think you are being a little cavalier. I just don't want to see you get hurt.

I do believe the bandsaw is generally safer than the cabinet saw. But that is because of the elimination of kickback and your ability to lower the blade guides to the point where the minimal amount of blade is exposed.

Don't forget that the bandsaw was invented for cutting through meat and bone. Accidentally move your fingers through the exposed blade while reaching for something and it'll cut one off before you feel it.

I've only been doing this about half as long as you, but in that time I haven't had a close call with a blade yet. Thats because I really like my fingers and I keep them well away. Accidents DO happen and you should take steps to minimize the damage they can cause.

Want some humor? Let me ask you this then, imagine if you could use your favorite body part to guide the wood past the blade? Would you do it, especially after you made accidental contact a few times? :D Or would you use protection? Your fingers just want the same respect.

During the class with David Marks when we were bandsawing the veneers, everyone got to take a try. David did the first one and used a push pad on the outside of the board and a push stick on the end. Everyone else did the same. The last guy to go put his hand over top the board and was pushing the end of the board with his hand on the side and the thumb hooked over the end. He made David so nervous (and everyone else) that David got another board and stood there and held it between his upper hand and the blade. The guy didn't seem to get the hint and kept going, so he said, "Ok, everybody look, this is an example of what I don't want you to do", as he turned off the saw.

Maybe the risk in that situation was minimal, since the guy would probably move his hands away as he got closer. However, David has all his fingers intact after so many years, so I have to respect that. Taking a minimal risk over and over is the best way to make it happen.

[Bill White]

I did all sorts of stuff with it. Rip, cross cut, dado, etc. Now I have a TS, BS, and the same old RAS.
I am now cutting some 2 1/2" sq. table legs on a tapering sled. No way am I gonna try to cut anything thicker on my TS. Get a BS.
Bill