New to it all..

[Brett Carlson]

Hello,

I have been thinking about laser engraving for quite sometime as a home-based business. I have an initial investor for the purchase of the laser and will have to buy some other items. I am curious about everything I need to know about the business so learning from others is invaluable. Right now I am looking at a universal brand laser, but have also looked into epilog, trotec, xenetech, the lasers edge, and kern. At this point I am asking for customer experience with any and all brands to support my reasons for buying one system over the other. I have seen that the rotary system on the epilog laser isn't the greatest, but what other lasers have the same or other weaknesses. And I know this is not a strong economy to do this, but any insight for good profitability would be appreciated. I am in the Las Vegas area and see so a lot of potential with something like this, but what is worth the time to do? Any experiences, insight, warnings are welcome.

Thanks in advance!

[Steve Clarkson]

Brett,

Welcome....you just found the greatest source of information for laser engravers. Make sure you use the search feature.....you can find tons of old threads on almost any topic you can think of.

I've got an Epilog and I'm very happy with it.....most people that have Universals seem just as happy, so I don't think you can go wrong if you pick either of the two.

I guess one of the first things we need to know before we can give you any advice, is what are you planning to do with the laser if you get it? If you plan to make signs, you'll get one answer and if you plan to open a kiosk in a mall selling portraits, you'll get completely different answers.

[Brett Carlson]

I am glad I found this place. I guess what I want to do is build a strong and firm business at first and get into more application specific lasers assuming everything goes well. But starting off I am thinking of a laser that handles just about anything and everything so I can explore different markets and find good niches abroad if that makes sense. So I picture doing scanned photos on granite or marble, then a flashlight with company logo, maybe cloth, then marking. The possibilities are endless and I want to explore it as well as make a viable business.

[James Jaragosky]

I am glad I found this place. I guess what I want to do is build a strong and firm business at first and get into more application specific lasers assuming everything goes well. But starting off I am thinking of a laser that handles just about anything and everything so I can explore different markets and find good niches abroad if that makes sense. So I picture doing scanned photos on granite or marble, then a flashlight with company logo, maybe cloth, then marking. The possibilities are endless and I want to explore it as well as make a viable business.
Welcome to the creek!
Glad to have you join us.
Good luck on your journey

The advice about the searching this forum is right on.
I would venture to guess that any question you have has been asked an answered several times in several different threads.

[John W. Love]

Welcome Brett,
First off you could not have found a nicer bunch of folks than those on the Creek. My advice is to just do what I did a lil over a year ago and just start going through the site here. There is a wealth of information, tips, tricks, ideas and just general all around advice available to you on this forum. I prowled through these forums for over a month before I decided to bite the bullet and lay out the cash. It is a decision I did not regret. For my wife and I this is a part time business that is done out of our home, in our spare time outside of our 9-5 jobs. Soon, though we hope to make it a full time business. But, ya gotta crawl before you can walk.
*TIP* Ask and you will receive. Ask questions if you can't find it here, be as precise as you can of the questions you ask. ALSO, remember to thank those that answer. Trust me, genuine appreciation goes a long way and the folks here will bend over backwards to help you out. In no other place have I seen people so willing to help others out, even if it means you are their competition.
Everybody here started out in the same place you are. With a gillion ideas and the lack of knowledge to make that idea work. And that is where the members here come into play. There have been so many times I was just about to throw my hands up and say I quit, when I looked around and found the answer to my problem had already been posted. Its funny to say this, but it gives me hope when I am lost and looking around and see one my mentors on here posted a question about the very thing that has me stumped. It lets me know that at one point or another we were all babes in the woods wandering around trying to figure out just how this contraption works.

I will say that for the individual that is a complete newbie like I was, I learned a lot from Laser University that Laserbits offers. It is very basic information to lay the groundwork out for you. What is shown is not complicated or in depth, but the knowledge you gain from it is the foundation for everything you will learn to do in the future.

As far as lasers I have a Mercury 40 watt and have had very little that I could complain about.

[Mark Plotkin]

Brett,

I will chime in with what others are saying and then add some of my experience. This forum is simply the best. Keith, one of the founders really took time and answered the many questions I had when I purchased my laser almost four years ago, some on the forum and some via email. The one thing I think people miss out when they first start is to realize the laser is just a complicated tool. I say complicated because while it is easy to engrave an object or many objects, there is a challenge to get the right settings and to be able to make jigs or templates both in Corel and out of material to be able to repeat a process over and over. Some learning (mistakes) can be expensive and never happen at the right time. There are deadlines and product lead times to worry about.

I think the hard part is the sales and marketing. The laser will do many products but finding people to buy at the right price and in quantities can be a challenge. If you are going to design a product that you know has a market, then you are on the right track. If you are going to see what you can do with a laser and then see what you can sell, you can find used lasers from people that went down that path and had problems.

In my case we started by making pens and having someone else do the engraving. When it got to the point where I got very large orders and the engraver did not want to tie up their machine for days on end, I had the option of purchasing a laser and doing enough business the first year to pay for it.

My advice is this, there are many on this forum that will engrave at “wholesale” I would find one, invest in samples and see what you can sell. Then if you can generate what you feel is a reasonable income to justify the cost, go for it! Since most items are customized there may be a benefit to dealing with an out of town person so they don’t approach customers you deal with on a local basis.

That said, the laser has been a great tool for me. I have built up a loyal customer base and if I ever lose my day job I would go all out and do the laser business full time.

Good luck and thanks to all the creekers who share so freely of their time and expertise!

[Brett Carlson]

Wow Mark, I treasure your insight and wisdom. I think I do need to re-evaluate my game plan before taking the plunge. I should almost have a plan of attack in one direction. I do have a friend that is looking for corporate logos on various items. So I am already thinking pens, flashlights, glasses. Then being in Vegas, I think it would be great to engrave event dates and names on wine and liquor bottles for bars, clubs, and restaurants that want to personalize something for their most distinguished guests. Your tip about keeping it small and focused is helpful and I want to make a short list of some of the "best sellers" so that I can get fast at producing them and have them be a sure bet while I work on other items in a research and design type phase if that makes sense.

[Tom Gooch]

Brett,
Welcome! I'm a newbie too. I bought the epilog Helix 45. I agree with the posters here that universal and epilog are pretty much on a par and it comes down to subtle things or gut. I found epilog and my local rep seemed to have a greater interest in my success and so the scales tipped that way. Your rep might make the difference for you where you live.

While itis usually true that you don't get what you don't pay for (otherwise known as "you get what you pay for") it doesn't apply in this forum. I've had an enourmous and valuable education here in its pages for free. I've found answers to 99% of my questions by searching, and asked questions on the rest and got prompt and explicit assistance from really friendly people. It has been a joy to be in the fold with these folks, even though I've just been here a month. What a remarkable resource of genereous and knowledgeable people we have found---how rare these days!:)

[Martin Boekers]

Brett, the welcomes proceed mine!

As someone mentioned earlier the laser is just a tool, working with the programs to tell it what to do is the main thing. Creativity and problem solving is a must!

Corel knowledge is a real time saver, when you start to learn Corel that is when you will start to become effiecent with less errors.

One thing I would highly recommend if you are in the States to check out the ARA (Awards & Recognitions Association) Show in Feb at Las Vegas.

There you will gain invaluable knowledge for scope of this industry at one show. (a tax deductable "vacation" isn't all bad either.) You should be able to see most of the laser manufacturers out there in action. Vegas has some really good deals on with the economy the way it is.

If that show is out of reach the National Business & Marketing (NBM) show hit a few times a year at various locations around the country.
These are much smaller but they cover awards, signage, textiles at one show. so I try to hit that if I can't do the ARA.

You Tube has many videos on laser engraving check it out!

Hope this helps


Marty

[Martin Boekers]

Brett,

One more thing, there probably be some good deals out there due to the economy, but one thing I try to do is to coincide major purchases with the timing of a trade show. Usually that can save you quite a bit with trade show discounts or at least the might provide you with a selection of products. If you don't make the show call the distributor up that week and say you couldn't make the show and do they have a trade show discount. This works especially good with product vendors as you are new to the business and could provide them with sales for years to come.

Never be afraid to ask!


Marty

[Scott Shepherd]

Welcome to the forum! I've owned both an Epilog and a Universal laser, and I agree, they both make good machines. There are some very application specific differences, but if you're not in that world, then it probably doesn't matter one way or the other. If speed and quality is important to you, you should bump Trotec to the top of the list of machines to evaluate as well.

Having said all that, from what you mentioned, that's a hard way to make money with a laser. My advice is this- believe about 10% of what the sales reps tell you or show you when it comes to what you can sell. If you go to shows and actually look at all the samples all the laser people have out, I'd challenge you to find anything that you could make good money doing. Anything that's "one off" and unique is going to kill you. If you have to take an individuals photo, doctor it up, take it into Corel, buy the material, and then engrave it, your price point is going to be quite high. In most cases, outside of what the average person is willing to spend.

Certainly there are exceptions and we have a few people on here who are the exceptions, but overall, my guess is the majority of people who buy lasers think they can sell personalized photos and items to people and they fail to do so at the levels they projected.

If you're talking about logos on things, you're stepping into the promotional products area. Do a little research on the cost of promotional products. They expect things for 10 cents each, not $10 each. It's a very low profit margin world and it's very competitive.

There are certainly ways to make pockets full of cash with a laser. However, it's not unlike any other business. The secret (which isn't a secret) is hard work, determination, sales, marketing, good customer service, networking, etc.

I wish you the best of luck, just be careful in thinking you can engrave people's photos on granite and make a career out of it. I haven't met anyone yet who has been able to make a living doing photographs and flashlights, but I have met a large number of laser sales reps who have told me it's that simple ;)

Just my opinion, and that's not worth the paper it's written on....oh wait.... I didn't even write it on paper ;)

[Larry Bratton]

What Scott said.
plus..to make a living in the production of graphics related products, your laser is just one of your tools. You need other equipment, a CNC router is great to have and if I had to choose between the two, the router would top the list. If your planning on doing sign work, a plotter to cut vinyl and a good printer are important tools.

Good luck with it, and welcome to this forum. It's a great resource.

[Angus Hines]

THankx for saving a tree Scott !!!!


Welcome to the forum! I've owned both an Epilog and a Universal laser, and I agree, they both make good machines. There are some very application specific differences, but if you're not in that world, then it probably doesn't matter one way or the other. If speed and quality is important to you, you should bump Trotec to the top of the list of machines to evaluate as well.

Having said all that, from what you mentioned, that's a hard way to make money with a laser. My advice is this- believe about 10% of what the sales reps tell you or show you when it comes to what you can sell. If you go to shows and actually look at all the samples all the laser people have out, I'd challenge you to find anything that you could make good money doing. Anything that's "one off" and unique is going to kill you. If you have to take an individuals photo, doctor it up, take it into Corel, buy the material, and then engrave it, your price point is going to be quite high. In most cases, outside of what the average person is willing to spend.

Certainly there are exceptions and we have a few people on here who are the exceptions, but overall, my guess is the majority of people who buy lasers think they can sell personalized photos and items to people and they fail to do so at the levels they projected.

If you're talking about logos on things, you're stepping into the promotional products area. Do a little research on the cost of promotional products. They expect things for 10 cents each, not $10 each. It's a very low profit margin world and it's very competitive.

There are certainly ways to make pockets full of cash with a laser. However, it's not unlike any other business. The secret (which isn't a secret) is hard work, determination, sales, marketing, good customer service, networking, etc.

I wish you the best of luck, just be careful in thinking you can engrave people's photos on granite and make a career out of it. I haven't met anyone yet who has been able to make a living doing photographs and flashlights, but I have met a large number of laser sales reps who have told me it's that simple ;)

Just my opinion, and that's not worth the paper it's written on....oh wait.... I didn't even write it on paper ;)

[Randy Walker]

Hi Brett
Another newbee here. Like it was mentioned in several other posts Welcome the SMC. This place is a diamond in the internet rock pile. I have spent the last several weeks looking at the arcive posts and reading about all of the laser companys. I have looked at all of the lasers you mentioned and setteled on the Universal. My sales rep made all of the difference. I think that most of the machines are good. As to work it seems to me that if you dont know where you are going your in for a very long journey. I have a small niche in the jewelery industry and a 9 to 5 to support it until it can pay its own way. Best of luck on your journey. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Steve Clarkson]

Welcome Randy!

Hey, where in Tennessee are you? My sister lives near Nashville. Sorry about them Titans! What kind of jewelry are you making?

[David Dustin]

First thing I'll tell is the people here are simply the best on the planet!!

2nd thing would be, it is very very hard to make and build a succesful business in this industry.
Please re-think your plans.
If I had it to do over again I would not have started mine.
I invested thousands of dollars, months of my time and after five months have made (after product costs and excluding capital) about $250.

If you can live on that or want to rely on that, God bless you.

It is not all doom and gloom, but you need to see the other side of this.
Some here are lucky enough to get some really good contracts and business. We have never been lucky, in fact it took "several" go arounds to get a Laser that worked longer than a few days.

We will keep the business going for a while, but like Steve (Scott Sheperd) said, everyone wants products for next to nothing. That is the cost of living where we are used to importing products from China for pennies. It may just end up being a tax write off for us.

Please, please rethink what you are doing.
David

[Randy Walker]

Hi Steve
Thanks for the welcome. My wife and I live south of Nashville near Spring Hill. We will be making a varitey of engraved jewelery and cabachons for my wifes jewelery buisness. She is working on a website now. I also make some fancy jewelery boxes and do a little turning. We will also be getting into warm glass creations soon.http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Stephen Beckham]

First thing I'll tell is the people here are simply the best on the planet!!

2nd thing would be, it is very very hard to make and build a succesful business in this industry.
Please re-think your plans. David

Party Pooper.... As he may be in this thread - he makes a very valid point. And honestly, had I not been receiving my Army retirement check, there are several times I'd gone under without question.

I started out in the basement while still on active duty and the payments were easy. When the pay cut in half - it was a challenge to keep it going without leaving it behind to chase a real paycheck again.

Now after three years - I've shown a quite profitable year (still not what I could get chasing a GS position on base) but sustainable. My ideas of what I was going to do and what I was going to make - shot to dung in a matter of months... My market research was lacking for my area. The research was correct and valid, but I tried to apply it to a location 13 miles away from where I did my research. I over assumed what the community would do for me and how far the military would travel to buy from me. Now that I'm back near a military base, my business has doubled and will probably survive without worry for years to come.

Do your research.... If you can afford $500 a month payment on a laser to consider it a hobby and not put a damper on the family finances - do it... Build it into a business - as it starts to get in the way of the real job and if it starts to replace the real job's salary in sales, jump in both feet.

Otherwise - research is key....

The other comment by David about how great this forum is - open it up and see what they can offer...

One other question - what's your competition like in the area?

[Tim Bateson]

It's true, you're not very likely to be making a living in this business any time soon, but that is likely true with any new start-up venture. Before you jump in write a comprehensive/realistic business plan.
Our business plan is to keep this as a hobby/part-time business while building our knowledge and experience. My wife & I have day jobs that we're not likely to leave anytime soon. Our Business Plan is to slowly evolve into a full-time business over the next 10 years when we're nearing retirement from our day-jobs. Until then it's just extra cash for Christmas and vacations.
Although my business isn't much above hobby level, I did pay for most of Christmas with the extra income. This is with only 1 year at it. No big contracts yet, but the more I laser the more business I seem to get. I think most here will agree that 99% of new business is by word of mouth and that can only happen over time.
Good luck in your venture.

[Doug Griffith]

That is the cost of living where we are used to importing products from China for pennies.

... and here in the good old US of A.

I just programmed a CNC job for the point of purchase industry. The item is an eyeglass holder and each part takes many minutes to cut. Quantity is 12k units. The company buying them originally (verbally) accepted the quote at $4.50 each (I quoted $5 on a laser). After prototyping was done and samples were made, they shopped it around again and got quotes for less than $2.00 for the same job from 3 different companies. I saw the quotes and know the companies. The $2.00 a piece price equates to less than $15.00/hour shop rate. I do not know how an American business with employees, a building, etc... can afford to do it at that rate. I'm guessing it's "busy" work done with no profit or at a loss to keep employees and equipment working during these hard times.

On subject:
I recommend learning the software very well prior to making a hardware purchase. What comes out is only as good as what goes in.

Cheers,
Doug

[Ray Uebner]

Well first of all WELCOME. I did not see any Trotec People reply so here I am. I was like you and did not know which one to buy, I went to the ARA Convention in Vegas and played with every laser that was on the floor asked all the questions, did lots of hands on, took all the litture I could find and asked everyone I meet there about their lasers. Now after saying that you can understand my head was swimming with info. I went home did some more research and read everything I could find. The next year back to ARA convention and looked again to make sure I did not miss anything and asked better questions. It all comes down to support, ease of use and learning the software. how the machine is built and again Support. I picked the Trotec and I think they are all good but I got the best responce from them. I liked the machine and the support team. I also got the best price at the convention.
There are always a few thing no matter which machine you choose that will be different and may or may not make you wish you had made another choice. I am happy with the Trotec performance and support, they are always there and walk me throught what is needed to get the job done and the machine working to the top of its proformance. I do not like that they will not let you cut black. At first that was a big thing but now it is not that bad. We (me and a bunch of other trotec owners I know) are trying to get it changed and think we will in the near future. My machine has performed well and would recommend it to anyone. I cut a lot of wood and plastic and it does a great job. I do not want to sound like a salesman for them because I am not, I just like the machine. Wattage and size will also play into your decision for what type of machine you buy. Hope this helped some. The ARA convention is in Feb in Las Vegas I never miss it and is a great source for new products and meeting great people like these great people at sawmill. They are always ready to help and have helped me a lot so you have picked up on a great place to be. :)

[Brian Robison]

Welcome to the Creek.
Randy I'm not far away if you need anything.

[Steve Clarkson]

I do not like that they will not let you cut black. At first that was a big thing but now it is not that bad. We (me and a bunch of other trotec owners I know) are trying to get it changed and think we will in the near future.

Hey Ray, not sure if I understand what you said......you can't cut black? Like black acrylic or black cardstock?

[Martin Boekers]

I think he may have ment that you had to give the hairline a color designation such as red instead of black for the software to recognise it.

Marty

[Steve Clarkson]

Hehe.....thanks for clearing that up Marty......I thought it would be pretty strange that he couldn't cut black things........then again......I've been trying to cut some black marble all day.........

[Randy Walker]

Thank you Brian. Its good to know there are others in the area.

[Anthony Scira]

Welcome, also let me echo too about this being the best site on the internet. Lots of great people here.

As far as my limited experience I think I would have picked up a CNC machine first over the laser.

Its hard to compete with some of the prices out there and make a worthwhile profit in the areas you have mentioned. Lasering pictures is well and good but you will find few people willing to pay top dollar for an etched image. Not to mention it is quite a PITA. Definitely not as easy as scan and go.

The best thing you can do is look at the laser as a tool. You need to come up with something unique to sell. And when you do someone will prolly farm it out to china and cut you out of the loop.

But all in all I love my laser and its almost making the payments on itself. But I admit I have not had much time to market. So I will blame myself for that. I don't know what I was thinking tackling a start up like this with a 3 year old, a newborn and a full time job.

But man I have some COOL baby stuff !

[Carrol Fleming]

Brett,

While it is usually true that you don't get what you don't pay for (otherwise known as "you get what you pay for") it doesn't apply in this forum. I've had an enourmous and valuable education here in its pages for free.

Hey guys, I just want to point out that it should not be seen as free, rather as a huge amount of information for a really, seriously, ridiculously tiny amount of money asked for as an annual contribution - go on, be a devil and contribute more than the wonderful people here ask for ..... go on, just contribute something and show your support! :D

Carrol Fleming

[Ray Uebner]

Well sorry I got you confused. Yes the Trotec will not let you cut a black line you would have to change it to a Red, or other color to cut. It is a royal pain sometimes when you are doing things like LaserBuzz things where all the cut lines are Black and you have to change them to another color and then you miss one and it does not cut. But I am learning to slow down and double check.

[Brett Carlson]

I am still moving forward with this business idea.

Looking at the Universal lasers, I tried Epilog but never got the PROMISED quote emailed to me or the PROMISED credit application sent over by their recommended finance company...I guess someone has a greener dollar than mine! The Universal makes good sense for down the road when the laser has to be redone, they replace the whole cartridge, not just a gas recharge. I have also gained valuable perspective with what products to produce and how to market. Being a home based business is going to have its challenges, however, the low overhead is something that is worth its weight in gold! Well if anyone has more to add, please do as I thank those that have given me their perspectives, good and bad. And know that I am still reading!

Thank You!!

[Mike Null]

As far as I know, the three brands, Epilog, Universal and Trotec all replace the cartridge if the tube needs to be replaced. That would include several other brands as well.