New Years resolution...dovetails

[Bob Parker]

But first I need a dovetail saw. I've already decided on a japanese pull dovetail saw so don't try to convince me otherwise! My real question is, in your opinion which is higher quality, The Japan Woodworker or Tashiro Hardware? I can only spend about $50 but if I absolutely need to i can spend $75 with only a slight tongue lashing from the wife. Thanks for all the help, this place is so friendly!

[Michael Gibbons]

Bob , You might take a look at some of the offerings from Lee Valley. I bought a nice one a few years back. I think I spent $36 or so. You can replace the blade when needed.

[Wilbur Pan]

Best budget Japanese dovetail saw (read: with rip teeth) that I've seen is the Gyokucho #311. It has a replaceable blade. $39 at Japan Woodworker, $33 at Hida Tool.

Although, if you can go up to $75, maybe you stretch it a little more and go up to $82, and get the Mitsukawa Hardwood Dozuki Rip Saw at Hida Tool. That's a really nice dozuki, with a sharpenable blade.

[Don Dorn]

Good for you - you can do it, just start with 1/2" Poplar or Pine and do one pin, two tails until you get that. Then, go to two pins, three tails and so on. If you do one or two a day, within a month you'll be going gangbusters. I highly recommend the Frank Klausz method, but there are obviously other viable choices too.

As to the saw - I bought this one and even though I've changed to a Western Saw, I still have it and it still has all it's teeth. It's got a small kerf and is as sharp today as the day I got it. If I were staying with a Jap saw, I would have never felt the need to get anything different. Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Gyokucho-770-3500-Razor-Dozuki-Blade/dp/B000CEF5HC/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

BTW - I'm one of the reviews, DJ.

[Bob Parker]

What is the TPI of the #311? I couldn't find it on Hida Tools

[Wilbur Pan]

My Gyokucho 311 is about 20 tpi.

[Phillip Pattee]

Here is a link to Hida tools. The Gyoducho brand razor saw is item #D-GC#311 currently listed for $32.40 and you can find it at this link just scroll down a little bit.
http://www.hidatool.com/shop/shop.html

[Casey Gooding]

Though I mostly use Western Saws, I do occasionally use Japanese saws. I have always liked the Dozuki Z saw
http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=12F27&FamilyID=850
I think it's a great value.
Good luck!!!

[Jason Beam]

I'm sorry to hijack - it's just really weird to read about Hida Tool from folks on the other end of the country. That place is nifty! But SMALL. They cram a BUNCH of stuff in that little shop of theirs. I hadn't thought they were popular elsewhere - I thought they were just a little hole in the wall ... very neat to read about 'em on here :D

[Alan DuBoff]

Although, if you can go up to $75, maybe you stretch it a little more and go up to $82, and get the Mitsukawa Hardwood Dozuki Rip Saw at Hida Tool. That's a really nice dozuki, with a sharpenable blade.I would second this thought. Most of the Japanese saws are not setup for hardwood, so if you plan to work hardwoods you should make sure you have the proper saw for them.

Certainly not trying to convince you of anything, you make your bed, you sleep in it. ;)

[Dewey Torres]

I have this one (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15.132.40&dept_id=13085) from Japan WW.

It is a great saw and I am like you on Japanese saws. I tried this Christmas at Mike Holden's house (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=18844)to use his high quality English saws and I couldn't cut with them to save my life. It was embarrassing and I had no idea the transition would be that difficult but for me I just lost myself on the concept of the teeth cutting in what I know as reverse.

I am actually getting ready to buy a new one and I am getting a replaceable blade this time. The teeth on these things are so tiny it is not worth the hassle to sharpen them (for me) especially when the blades are replaceable. These teeth as you may know are fragile and truth be known, I am replacing mine because I knocked a few teeth off my old one.

[Sue Wise]

I bought this one (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32936&cat=1,42884)from Lee Valley because I also wanted to give a Dozuki a try without spending big bucks. I do use it but for dovetails I use my Adria dovetail saw that I bought from Eddie during his early years of making saws.

[John Keeton]

New Years resolution...dovetails
Bob, I know nothing about the Japanese saws, having bought into the Cosman method of dovetails, but I, too, have made this resolution! So, please post pics of your progress. I should have the rest of my "necessary" tools this next week to begin my endeavor.

BTW, I just bought the new LV dovetail saw and love it. Good luck settling into a saw that meets your needs and I look forward to hearing about those first dovetails!

[Mark Singer]

I have both western and Japanese saws. I have Mitskuawa saws which are hand made and very pricey! I have the Gyokucho saws one for ripping and one for crosscuts. I also have Frank Tashiro's saws and I really like them. That is what I would recommend. I would probably get the queen dovetail and the micro dovetail blades and one handle. These saws are set for crosscuts but they rip well for dovetails. You can saw on the scribe and will end up with perfect cuts Often on a drawer I cut one face with the Tashiro and one with my $260 Mitsukawa and when I am done the look the same. The Tashiro is easy to guide and cuts beautiful. One handle will hold either blade and you can change. I make my own handles.

Here is a link to my Tashiro saws

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17362&highlight=tashiro

[David Keller NC]

If you'd like to put your hands on one before you buy, Woodcraft has the Takumi line of shark branded saws. These are really superb tools - I have the Kugihiki and the Dozuki, and they're very reasonably priced. The Kugihiki, in particular, is the only flush-cut saw I've had my hands on that will absolutely not mar the work (I've had 4 of these - the other 3 went on the 'bay).

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3901

[Mark Singer]

Here are the pricey Misukawa saws that i use and a pair of lower priced ones. My friend got these for me in Japan

[Alan DuBoff]

If you'd like to put your hands on one before you buy, Woodcraft has the Takumi line of shark branded saws. These are really superb tools
All of our mileage varies I 'spose, I have one of the Takumi Dozukis and I am not in belief that it is a superb tool, in fact, it doesn't cut hardwood very well, and I wouldn't recommend it at all.

One try to cut hardwood, such as hickory, purple heart, or even hard maple, and I fled to western saws and haven't looked back. The Takumi does excel in softwoods, such as pine, in my experience, but I don't work pine very often.

[Mark Singer]

Western saws are a very good way to begin and very often it is what i use. I have the LN dovetail and old English saws, like Taylor Bros. The kerf is slightly wider but in many ways it is a better way to go.

[Alan DuBoff]

Mark,

I agree, but wasn't trying to change the original poster's mind, Japanese saws are decent tools if you select the right one. I have used the Mitsukawa that a friend owns, and compared it to some other nice Japanese saws. The Mitsukawa I used was filed for hardwoods, so the teeth were larger with a definite rip pattern. The Japanese tooth pattern is slightly longer. It was also nice to have a selection of saws to compare, which a friend of mine has a LOT of Japanese saws/planes/chisels.

The Takumi I have is crosscut, with fairly flimsy/springy teeth. It will leave a clean cut line, but skates off hardwood like a wing tip shoe in an ice storm.

That said, the Mitsukawa I used was about $140, so it was a bit more pricey. I'm not sure if those have come down in price or not, but if you can get one for under $90, that is the one I would go with, providing it was the same saw.

[Jim Tolpin]

Like so many of you, I too go back and forth (literally and figuratively; pun intended/not intended) between the western pushers and the eastern pullers! My conclusion: for making fine dovetail and other fine joinery cuts in softwoods (I'm loving working in Spanish Cedar lately) I'll reach for the Dozuki's every time. (I have the higher priced, rip set tooth version from Lee Valley). These saws are very fast and make a very thin kerf (the thinnest I've seen from any of my dovetail saws). But for hardwoods, I use my Independence or my antique western saw. I just got Lee Valley's new western-style dovetail saw and it may be the best western saw I have right now. The trick with the western saws is getting them started: you must take extremely short, extremely light strokes to prevent them from grabbing. But once you get going in the cut, they cut quickly and tend to follow the line more easily than do the Dozukis. The trick with the Dozukis is to let them do the cutting--in other words, don't push down hardly at all. Just move the saw back and forth and let the teeth do the work and gravity do almost all the rest! (A good reason to orient the cut perpendicular to the floor, by the way). If they wander, its generally because you are exerting too much down force (they put the handle directly behind the blade--not above it--for a reason!) That's my 1 cents worth (adjusted for the current deflation).

[Michael Gibbons]

A couple years ago, I had Lie-Nielsen make me a long handled dovetail saw with the thicker blade material that they use on the standard dovetail saw. Maybe you can ask them the make you one with the blade turned around so it cuts on the pull stroke? That just came to me...:confused:

[Jim Koepke]

I like the pull saws for some things and the pushers for others.

I could never get the pull saw to work well for ripping more than a foot or two.

I find they are much less forgiving when it comes to the teeth getting bent or wearing down. I have also had a problem with the plate cracking when working on hard woods.

Mine were of the less expensive variety, but instead of buying a new saw plate, I just sharpen my western saws.

jim