The Festool PLUNGE: is it worth it? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Tim Allaire

01-09-2009, 9:40 AM

Tim Malyszko

01-09-2009, 9:59 AM

I love my Festools. While I don't have the MFT, I do have the TS55 and do so much with it. I break down both plywood and rough lumber with the TS55 and as of late have been using it as my Miter saw (with the guide rail), since my Dewalt DW708 has been sitting in the basement for the last 4 months being used on a basement project.

With that being said, if I were limited on space, I feel very confident that I could do just about everything using a TS Plunge Saw and an MFT that I can do with my Mitre Saw and Table Saw. It may not be as quick, but will definately suffice.

In addition, Bob Marino (I buy all my Festool from him) put on a great demo on preparing a glue up on long boards without having to use a jointer and only using the TS55 and the guide rail - quite impressive. I don't have the direct link, but I'm sure you can find it.

Furthermore, I would highly recommend getting a Festool Dust Collector. My shop stays so much cleaner with it as it collects 90% of the dust coming off the Plunge Saw.

I look at Festool as an life-time investment since I don't ever plan on replacing these tools. I know own 8 different Festools and have yet to be disappointed with any one of them. Often after using one, I think "how did I work without it before."

Finally, their service is top notch. I have the Festool USA's Service Manager's Direct Number and he has been a pleasure to work with one issue I had with my CT22 recently - the replacement part went out immediately.

If you can afford it, I would go the Festool route.

Michael Stanley

01-09-2009, 10:23 AM

Tim, you might want to check the Eureka Zone (EZ Smart System) forum on this site for some additional ideas and usages of guided rail systems. Lots of great ideas and helpful people there.

Dave Falkenstein

01-09-2009, 11:04 AM

I own a Festool TS55 and a double MFT. I would not want to be without these tools, as the MFT is my favorite work surface in the shop, and the TS55 and guide rails are super at cross-cutting and sheet cutting.

However, I do not think the Festool (or any other guide and track saw setup) would eliminate the need at times for a circular saw and/or a miter saw. A plunge circular saw is difficult to use as a standard circular saw. It is easy to use on the rails, but somewhat cumbersome to use off the rails. The accurate setup and repeatability for miter and compound miter cuts is difficult - I would not use the plunge saw and guide rail for an angled cut except for angled cutting of sheets.

There are lots of applications where the plunge saw and guide rail are perfect. But it is not a one-tool-fits-all-cuts solution, IMHO.

Jim Kirkpatrick

01-09-2009, 11:05 AM

Tim, You're gonna find way more Eureka fans here than Festool. I'm a huge Festool proponent and agree with everything Tim says. But head on over to Festool Owners Group (http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php) for a more Festool friendly environment. You'll get opinions from woodworkers that have a lot of experience with Festool products. Cheers!

Chris Padilla

01-09-2009, 11:12 AM

Festool is designed as an overall system such that everything works pretty well together. The #1 item that drew my attention to Festool is its absolutely, top-notch, no-one-can-touch-them ability to capture so much sawdust from their tools.

Sanding with a Festool sander and vacuum is actually fun because there is no dust (you may question if you are really sanding anything) and it is actually pretty quiet.

The guided saws are also very nice and also capture sawdust very, very well.

They are pricey...VERY pricey...but so far they appear to be worth it to me.

Good luck in your quest.

Fred Hargis

01-09-2009, 11:39 AM

I have the TS 55, and find it quite useful...but I would never consider it a replacement for my TS.

Jason White

01-09-2009, 12:34 PM

Ditto.

I also couldn't be without my miter saw.

JW

I have the TS 55, and find it quite useful...but I would never consider it a replacement for my TS.

Thomas S Stockton

01-09-2009, 12:43 PM

The one question I would have is what do you use a miter saw for. If your cutting bigger pieces the festool would be good but I think for cutting smaller pieces and trim type stuff a miter saw would be best. Miter saws are pretty easy to tuck away and im sure you could rig something on a MFT to hold it. Depending on your needs you can get a pretty good miter saw starting at about $200
Tom

Tim Allaire

01-09-2009, 12:50 PM

My ultimate goal is to come up with a little bit here and there and start to use the whole Festool system (Kapo, Detail sander, router) in the future. I look at it more as an investment and attaining these things over time. Pricey or not they will last. I looked at the Eureka Table ($985) I might as well just get the Festool table and one of their dust collectors for that. I believe festool is the way to go (I did not really have intentions on making this work in lieu of a circ. saw-Ive got a Bosch jig saw that will do the same thing). I mainly use my TS for Dados...Still deciding I guess. (Love the table though-clever very clever!)

Tim

Larry Edgerton

01-09-2009, 1:04 PM

Tim Allaire

01-09-2009, 1:14 PM

Listen, I was not trying to stir the pot. I was just looking for suggestions-jeez, dare I venture down the the Mortise and Tenon and Domino road?

Tim

P.S. I already have a shop "half" full of "real tools"

Chris Padilla

01-09-2009, 2:45 PM

Tim,

It is the nature of these types of threads. Very often they stir folks up regardless of the orginial intention. It is not surprising when the tools cost what they do. We Mods always have to keep a little bit closer eye on threads like this.... Just carry on and don't feed the thread into closure is all (i.e. ignore those edgy type of posts....).

Jason White

01-09-2009, 2:50 PM

Really?? We couldn't tell!
;)

I am a professional woodworker and as far as I am concerned, judging by the few pieces that I have used, including that clumsy saw, its a cult. I think there is probably a secret handshake as well, but I was not allowed in the cult as I have a shop full of real tools.

Overpriced, and in no way comparable to stationary tools, and I don't for a minute believe they will improve your lovelife! :)

Not a Festoolian.....

John Stan

01-09-2009, 4:42 PM

I find Festool to be very expensive. I one several of their sanders, the 1400 router, the jigsaw, a domino, CT22, the TS55, and a MFT. I have found that since I got my table saw, I used the MFT less and less. For me, I get more accurate cuts using a Table Saw and Sled (cross cut) or fence (rip) than the MFT. I like all the tools and would purchase them again. I would not suggest to anyone that a TS 55 is a substitute for a table saw.

Jesse Cloud

01-09-2009, 6:01 PM

You can expect a wide range of answers on this board. The suggestion of looking at festoolownersgroup dot com is a good one - a little less venom over there...

Personally, I have several Festool tools and an MFT. I have a good range of stationary tools as well (unisaw, dj20 jointer, drill press, band saw, miter saw, etc). For me, the festools take up about 10 percent of the space and do 90 per cent of the work.

I sold my non-Festool routers and sanders, just never used them after the green got its nose in the tent. The tablesaw doesn't get much use anymore, mainly for a large number of repetitive cuts or to use a couple of jigs I haven't converted to Festool yet. The other time I use the TS is when I have a setup on the MFT that I don't want to break down yet. Oh, and the TS makes a nice assembly surface.

As Chris said, the pieces work together beautifully. There is one power cord that plugs into your saw, sander, router, domino, etc. No clutter. With the rail and the mft, I make just as precise cuts as I could on the TS. And with the dust collection, theres almost no cleanup at the end of the day, and you are not blowing black snot out of your nose - those two things are worth the price for me.

I do still use the miter saw, though probably more for rough cuts than anything else.

One thing the MFT is not, however, is a hand-tool workbench. Just not rigid enough. Its fine for power tool use and assembly, but not for heavy duty handplaning.

It depends a lot of what kind of work you want to do, but maybe one could generalize that if space is a premium, dust control is important, and you aren't doing a hundred reps of the same cut, Festool could be for you.

Paul Demetropoulos

01-09-2009, 7:30 PM

I have a small shop and am in dire need of a good workbench.I saw the Festool MFT 3 and Plunge saw(either model) and have been wondering if it would be worth the money to bypass the miter, circ, and "made" table and get the festool combo.
Tim

Tim,

Not sure what is it you mean by a "made" table, are you referring to a workbench you would "make" yourself?

Eddie Shih

01-09-2009, 10:35 PM

I am a professional woodworker and as far as I am concerned, judging by the few pieces that I have used, including that clumsy saw, its a cult. I think there is probably a secret handshake as well, but I was not allowed in the cult as I have a shop full of real tools.

Overpriced, and in no way comparable to stationary tools, and I don't for a minute believe they will improve your lovelife! :)

Not a Festoolian.....

There is no such things as overpriced. Only if you are willing to pay for it or not.
For ripping a 4' x 8' board, MDF, plywood, you name it. The TS55/75 is the best tool to use, it just makes your life so easy. I am not strong enough to lift the big board on to my TS. For me, it is so much easier to cut the board to smaller piece by just moving my TS75 on the rail. MFT is also a great tool with the FESTool clamps.

FESTool sells their system. This is scary :D. It will eventually make you buy more FESTool tools.

The sanders from FESTool are best in the market especially with their dust collection. Sanding the wood is excellent. However, when you tried you sand the dry wall, you will appreciate how good FESTool dust collection can be.

Anyway what I tried to say is that I think FESTool is expensive but they are not overpriced. It is worth every penny you spend.;)

Peter Pedisich

01-09-2009, 11:29 PM

Tim,

I have a MFT and ATF55, as well as some of the EZ Smart stuff.
They all work well.
But my miter saw is sitting there all set up waiting for me to just pull the trigger...makes life so much easier.

I could not give up my miter saw and table saw easily. Efficiency is my top priority. But if forced, I'd give up my table saw before the miter saw.

The one Festool I have that I've never questioned the price of is my CT22 vac, it made the most dramatic change in the way I work.

Pete

jason lambert

01-10-2009, 9:26 AM

Shory answer Yes, but I would not be without a miter saw. The trouble is the MFT is so usefull it alwas has something on it. I do have 2 MFT's for sale a 1080 and 1080 basic if you are intrested in saving a couple bucks.

Loren Hedahl

01-10-2009, 9:54 AM

I freed up a bunch of space by getting rid of my contractor saw. The plunge saw works for most of the cuts I was previously using the table saw for, except long thin rips. For that I acquired a small bench saw.

For cross cutting I normally use a MFT 1080, however on occasion I just use a short guide rail with a couple of pieces of scrap the same thickness to keep the guide rail positioned.

I still keep my old Makita miter saw around, but it spends most of its time under the bench next to its cousin, a DeWalt 745. There is also a DeWalt miter saw stand folded up in a corner. These are only used in good weather when I can take them outdoors and not worry about the sawdust mess.

Like others here, I initially grit my teeth over the initial cost, but the alternative for me was to build a larger shop. When I considered the cost of that potential decision, the Festools became a bargain.

So I can empathise with most of the viewpoints stated here. I have a little problem understanding how deciding to purchase a few Festool products makes me a member of a cult, but -- oh, well, I've certainly been accused of worse!

Mike Gager

01-10-2009, 11:53 AM

some of their stuff looks nice but its all way out of my price range

Tim Allaire

01-12-2009, 8:20 AM

Mike Gager

01-12-2009, 9:17 AM

can someone explain why the table thing they offer is so expensive? i can understand the tools but the table just looks like a piece of mdf with some dog holes, t tracks and card table legs. is it better looking in person?

Chris Padilla

01-12-2009, 10:39 AM

Mike,

EVERYTHING with Festool's name on it is expensive; just the way it is but you pretty much nailed the table: that is what it is. Go to Woodcraft and look at one in person.

Jesse Cloud

01-12-2009, 10:46 AM

Okay so expensive or not I am dropping the coin on table, saw and dust extractor. Questions is which saw the 55 or 75 (for general uses only) and the dust extractor the 22 or 33? Worth the extra money for both or go the cheapest route?
Hey Tim, Good picks - those are probably the best bang for the buck, but don't think you can stop mid-slope;).

Personally, I am retired and make furniture for a hobby. I'm in the shop five or six days a week,but its a one man shop. The CT22 is more than adequate or me. Unless I'm routing out dovetails, a vac bag will last two or three months, so the 33 might extend that 3 months to 5 - not worth the $$ to me...

The TS75 will cut thicker material than the 55, but I don't need that very often. On the other hand the 75 is considerably heavier than the 55 and you do pick up the saw after each cut, so I prefer the 55.

Explore the Festool combo packages. When you buy a saw and vac together you get a price break. There are table combos, too.

Don't forget to save some $$ for festool clamps. The combination of the mft and the clamps is awesome - clamp anything anywhere...

Bill Esposito

01-12-2009, 11:15 AM

We had a guy on another board who went for the TS75 against most everyone's recommendations and after a couple of days with it he returned it for the TS55. The TS75 is undoubtedly a good saw but it is big and heavy. Most of us use our Festools for sheet goods where the TS55 excels.

Chris Padilla

01-12-2009, 12:02 PM

I have older cousin of the 75, the 65. I've never used the 55. I got the 65 just for depth of cut but must admit that I have probably never used it for such and the 55 probably would've been just fine. The 65 is heavy but since that is all I've ever used, it is no big deal. Sometimes a little heft can be good....

Tim Allaire

01-12-2009, 12:36 PM

Looks like there is a combo with the ts 55 and ct 22 ($900) but I am assuming it will be worth the money in the long run....along with the mtf3 1500 and change...yikes! Is the table as ridgid as they claim (it will be my only work surface until I can make my own workbench)

Jim Becker

01-12-2009, 12:43 PM

Tim, the MFT is pretty sturdy, but it's MDF...so it's fine for general work, but not a good thing to "pound" on. You can mitigate temporarily by floating another piece of MDF or ply on top when not cutting to help you preserve it and keep from any unnecessary sagging. MFT is a very nice portable solution, but not the equivalent of a heavy workbench.

Paul Johnstone

01-12-2009, 1:19 PM

Two real issues, here. I have a small shop and am in dire need of a good workbench. I also need a circular saw and mitersaw. I saw the Festool MFT 3 and Plunge saw(either model) and have been wondering if it would be worth the money to bypass the miter, circ, and "made" table and get the festool combo. Suggestions? I figure it will cost twice as much for the festool combo (I forgot to mention that the portablilty is something I might need down the road).

Tim

That's a question only you can answer. I thought about it, and decided against it.

The circular saw and MFT will not replace a tablesaw (at least in terms of easily being able to make repeatable cuts, especially rip cuts).

Another thing that annoyed me was that Festool uses propetary blades which are a lot more expensive than standard circular saw blades.

I decided to go with a tablesaw and Jessem MiterRSlide for crosscuts.
That's a very efficient way, IMO to cut sheet goods. I only have to deal with the circular saw and straight edge if I want to do a crosscut greater than the Jessem allows (which is something like 32" or 35").. basically only when I do a crosscut across an entire sheet of plywood.

For a home shop, Jessem + tablesaw is much more efficent and versatile. Put the saw on a mobile base if you have to. Make a router table that can double as an infeed or outfeed table (put that on wheels too).. Or use one of the plans for a fold down outfeed table. There's lots of clever ways to save space.

I think the real value of the Festool system would be on a job site, where you don't want to lug around a contractor's saw.. But I know some people love their circular saw systems.. Just giving my opinion, not bashing Festool.. didn't make sense for me but you may have other needs.

Paul Johnstone

01-12-2009, 1:25 PM

Okay so expensive or not I am dropping the coin on table, saw and dust extractor. Questions is which saw the 55 or 75 (for general uses only) and the dust extractor the 22 or 33? Worth the extra money for both or go the cheapest route?

Ok, if you have your mind made up.

The 33 is basically the same as the 22, only with a bigger bag (IIRC).

I think the 75 has a deeper plunge depth. I guess you'll have to decide if you need that or not. If you are just going to do sheet goods, I think the 55 is adequate. I'm not an expert though.

Chris Padilla

01-12-2009, 2:10 PM

Tim,

I just reread your intial post and you mentioned portability. Well, you can hardly go wrong with the MFT in that case. It folds up rather nicely. In fact, you can fold it up and still use it in its folded-up state as it has little "mini-supports" that it rests on.

I love the fact that I can fold it up and put it out of the way when I don't need it (which doesn't happen often but a good option nonetheless).

Dave Falkenstein

01-12-2009, 2:39 PM

Okay so expensive or not I am dropping the coin on table, saw and dust extractor. Questions is which saw the 55 or 75 (for general uses only) and the dust extractor the 22 or 33? Worth the extra money for both or go the cheapest route?

I agree with Paul's reply, and will add some details.

The TS75 has more power, is a bit heavier and has a deeper cutting capacity. I use a TS55 and cut mostly sheet goods, so I have never been disappointed that I did not get the TS75.

The CT22 and CT33 have the same specs. The CT33 has a bigger base and bag. I use a CT22 in a home shop, and change the bag once or twice a year.

I suspect you would be happy with a TS55 and CT22.

Tim Allaire

01-12-2009, 2:41 PM

Altought I can use my Proshop as a center piece, the main idea here was that I needed both a semi-portable table and something that I can use as a workbench (for the time being). The MTF is really kind of useless without the plunge saw, so the idea was to use both. (not to mention that I can put into the back of the truck and use it wherever).

That being said the Jessem miterslide would be a future added benefit to my small shop. Did I misconstrue your conception?

Tim

Tim Allaire

01-13-2009, 9:59 AM

I am going to get the ts 55 but was thinking about the MIDI instead of the ct22. Any suggestions? Ideas?

Tim

chris dub

01-13-2009, 11:10 AM

If cost is an issue, I just ordered a Fein Trubo I Demo off ebay for $185+Shipping. I think they have a couple more. I figured I would want a little more capacity than a 3 gallon Midi vac but didn't want to spend $500 for a CT22. I also saw the Porter Cable 7812 Recon at Tool King for ~$200.00. Which has more capacity, but is a little louder. But if I were to have gone the Festool road I would have saved up for the CT22. Unless portabililty was my primary concern I think I would have been disapointed with the fewer CFM and smaller capcity of the Midi/Mini. And at $400 for a vac I wouldn't want to risk being disapointed.

Chris Padilla

01-13-2009, 11:16 AM

I am going to get the ts 55 but was thinking about the MIDI instead of the ct22. Any suggestions? Ideas?

Tim

Tim,

I actually have a CT11 (no longer available...I got a good price on the closeout)!! Now I do not know how that compares to the MIDI in terms of bag capacity, but it does take me several months to fill it up. It all really depends on how much you use it. Some may fill up a CT33 in a month. I think it would take me 24 months to fill up a CT33's bag!!

One thing is for sure, the full capacity of the bag is used. I just changed my bag on my CT11 a couple weeks ago because I noticed the suction decreasing. When I check the bag, it had filled right the connection point and was so packed and dense, I had a bit of a go getting it out to replace it!! :)