Do I need to lighten up?

[Russell Tribby]

I picked up what was supposed to be 80 bdft. of alder the other day from the supplier I've used recently. I started to sort it out today to plan my cuts and noticed that 90% of the boards were around 110", when they had counted them as being 10'. With about 20 boards, averaging 5" wide I figured that I was shorted around 8 bdft. On top of that I had called in a will call for 80 bdft., they pulled 81.5 bdft. and had rounded it up to 82 bdft. Do I need to lighten up? Am I making too big of a deal out of this? I feel like calling and complaining. I would think with times being as tough as they are retailers would want to do everything that they can to hold onto customers. There are certainly other places I can go in town, I've just stuck with them on the last few projects.

[Tom Veatch]

I...boards were around 110", when they had counted them as being 10'. ... I figured that I was shorted around 8 bdft. ... 80 bdft...rounded it up to 82 bdft. ... I feel like calling and complaining. ...

Let's see -- paid for 82 bdft, got 72 bdft. IMO, it's a no-brainer. Time for a telephone call.

[John Thompson]

About all lumber-yards do that. Some (like mine) will tell you and some won't mention it. On each plank depending on the width... they have to calculate shrinkage from the time they purchased it.. if it is S 1 they have waste from milling and it increases with S 2.. etc. In other words from the time it comes in rough to the time they get it to you.. it has down-sized from original rough.

Now.. if it was rough stock that might not apply and you should just ask them. My supplier is in Suwanee Geogia and has a web-site with the town name.. add lumber and a dot com. I can't post the site on this forum. Google for Suwanee Lumber and have a look. They have a detailed chart explaining the % they tacked onto each width and why they tacked it on. They are reliable and up-front with customers.

As far as ordering say 40 BF and you are charged for 42 or 43.. due to down-size and the fact it is difficult to mill down to exactly 40 feet. Think about that fact and ask yourself if you had rather gotten 38 feet because of the boards used or 42 feet as attempting to nail down 40 BF exact is wasting their time and near impossible.

Hope that helps and is the case.. as they could just be cheating you I suppose but probably not... :)

Sarge.

[Ben Franz]

I would certainly question the 10% shortage - maybe an inquiry to the manager if you know him/her. The .5 bdft roundup may be typical and wouldn't bother me.

If you value this supplier otherwise, give them a shot at making it right. I don't think any business owner wants to run off a repeat customer (except maybe Best Buy:eek:). If they don't stand up, makes the decision easy.

[Joe Jensen]

About all lumber-yards do that. Some (like mine) will tell you and some won't mention it. On each plank depending on the width... they have to calculate shrinkage from the time they purchased it.. if it is S 1 they have waste from milling and it increases with S 2.. etc. In other words from the time it comes in rough to the time they get it to you.. it has down-sized from original rough.

Now.. if it was rough stock that might not apply and you should just ask them. My supplier is in Suwanee Geogia and has a web-site with the town name.. add lumber and a dot com. I can't post the site on this forum. Google for Suwanee Lumber and have a look. They have a detailed chart explaining the % they tacked onto each width and why they tacked it on. They are reliable and up-front with customers.

As far as ordering say 40 BF and you are charged for 42 or 43.. due to down-size and the fact it is difficult to mill down to exactly 40 feet. Think about that fact and ask yourself if you had rather gotten 38 feet because of the boards used or 42 feet as attempting to nail down 40 BF exact is wasting their time and near impossible.

Hope that helps and is the case.. as they could just be cheating you I suppose but probably not... :)

Sarge.

Commercial yards in the Phoenix area do nothing like this. The ones I've used use a special fiberglass stick with marks for each board length. They lay the stick on the narrowest part of a board, and then they look for the mark that corresponds to that length at that width and the stick says how many bd ft. In my experience they round down to the nearest 1/2 ft length as that's how the stick is marked. they also use the narrowest part of the board. Retail on the other hand uses a tape measure. Woodworkers Source in Tempe is horrible. Rounding up in length and width.

[Joe Chritz]

If it is rough then you have a legit gripe. 10' rough boards should be about 122 inches or so. If it was processed then you may have had checks that needed to be cut out but if it is most of the pile I would shop for a new supplier. That can and often is a sign of poor kiln operation.

I have bought piles of rough lumber and normally it is straight run but if the guy notices anything especially bad on an end he will nearly always deduct a board foot or so from the total. It is one of the reason I keep going back.

Joe

[Alan DuBoff]

Let's see -- paid for 82 bdft, got 72 bdft. IMO, it's a no-brainer. Time for a telephone call.
It would seem so, but I have never seen an industry that has so many ways to calculate board feet, it's amazing. Seems everything gets pushed downstream to the little guy to eat in the end.

Seems like it's not too much to ask to get the proper amount of bf when you buy lumber, but in the real world that presents a lot of problems. :confused:

I won't shop at one shop local to me because they try to rip people off, they have shorted me twice...they made up for it, but it's the principal and they drag their feet to make good. Once they charged 10% extra for straight line, which is crap, that should be calculated in the price, not taken off the total amount of bf.

Buying lumber is like buying car insurance, there is always some reason why you have to pay more...and get less...

[Larry Edgerton]

I buy a lot, sight unseen, from LL Johnson Lumber in Charlotte Mi. And the count is always generous. On the couple of occasions I was not happy they took care of it. Other mills will try to short, but I figure it out as I load with all others.

Joe Critz, where are you buying?

[Scott Wigginton]

The .5 bdft roundup may be typical and wouldn't bother me.

I think the gripe with the roundup was it indicates they took the time to calculate what they actually pulled, which seems unlikely given that almost 90% of the boards noticably short.

[Mike Heidrick]

A few questions before acting....

If he told you to get bent and you cannot buy from him anymore what would that mean to you? Have you bought before from them where they gave you a deal and you did not say anything? How thick truely is his 4/4? Is it more like 5/4? Just keep your mind open to exactly how EXACT he could be the next time you buy - if he even lets you buy again.

[Russell Tribby]

A few questions before acting....

If he told you to get bent and you cannot buy from him anymore what would that mean to you? Have you bought before from them where they gave you a deal and you did not say anything? How thick truely is his 4/4? Is it more like 5/4? Just keep your mind open to exactly how EXACT he could be the next time you buy - if he even lets you buy again.

You raise some good questions Mike. The stock I got this time was S2S. I usually buy rough from them but thought I'd go this route to save a little time. The 4/4 I've bought from them in the past is usually spot on. I've never received a break from them in the past but then I've never expected one either. I don't buy a lot from them, although it's a lot for me.
As to how they would react to my complaint, I'm not too concerned. They are not the only show in town (and they know that) so there are plenty of other places I could go. Additionally, I do not shy away from confrontation but I am not a confrontational person. The manner in which I would address this would not be threatening.

[Larry Fox]

I would give them a call - maybe they could give you a credit on your account for the next time you are there or something. The yard that I use (Hearne) is very fair when it comes to this sort of thing. I typically go pull my own stuff and they measure usable and typically knock it down a bit for end checks, knots that are difficult to cut around and that sort of thing. They have even pointed out stuff that I had not seen. So, yeah, I think a phone call is in order to at least ask why.

[Bob Johnson2]

I would call and ask. I had the same question and was told they round up/down to the nearest 1" in width figuring it averages in the long run. So if all or most are just over the 1/2" mark you get shorted. If you think of it, and are look long term, it's okay. They have some sort of yard stick that tells them what the bf is where I go. I never bothered to check again after the one time, kind of like checking my 401k balance...

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I never let anyone pull my lumber for me...I'd call and get cash back or return the lot.

[hank dekeyser]

Hmmmm, shorted by 10 bf? seems like a lot to me. It sounds like you have a few options where to buy lumber, I think it's time to "shop around" - Make an afternoon of it, visit the yard and ask who their suppliers are, do a random pull of a couple different species, etc.
First I would contact the place you dealt with first and find out what happened on your order .(we all make mistakes) Heck - 80 bf usually ends up more like 85 ft where I come from. If they did short you and don't make it right, let them know that they lost you as a customer. And dont take it personal - keep your cool and smile. business is business

[John Thompson]

What I stated about how Suwanee does it was only when you order a species that is not on their viewing shelf in the front ware-house. All the stock there is S 3 and measured with the wood calculator like others have mentioned. You can pick through their entire inventory and spend hours doing it. Each board is clearly marked with chalk at each end with the already calculated BF. I take a tape and check on the spot and then add their % they make you aware of.

But... they have their own sawmill down the hill. If you order say 100 BF of QSWO which they do not keep in the racks.. they mill it that afternoon and it is ready the next morning. What's down the hill comes in the form of a large piece of stock. If you want 4/4.. 5/4.. 8/8... etc. they cut it down to what you want.

Say you want 4/4... they charge you for 4/4 but if they will take it all the way to S 3 at no additional charge per board feet. You pay for 4/4 but can request 15/16.. 3/4 or whatever. So... considering the stock in the bins already milled to S 3 are clearly marked and you can check on the spot to make sure there is no error.. Rough stock can be milled to S 3 and your desired thickness at no charge.. I consider how they calculate to be very fair.

And I didn't mention that out of 6 main sources in Atlanta they have the cheapest prices over-all and quite a bit cheaper on most species per BF. With all said and done.. I certainly can't argue with their method of calculating as they don't attempt to hide anything. And if you did find an error on claerly marked stock already surfaced... they will correct it and knock off a few BF to compensate you on the write up when you are done picking and chosing before you hit the front office and pay.

Sarge..

[Lee Schierer]

First question that came to my mind is whehter you actually needed the 120" length or if it would have ended up as so much scrap. If I needed 10' lengths, then I would definitely call tehm, be polite and explain the need.

Where I shop for lumber, I routinely get more than what I pay for in terms of feet of material. Since I can use short pieces (30-48") in many of my projects, these represent waste to my supplier and he will often give me a couple of extras to get them off his floor. Also since he supplies mainly to contractors for trim work, they generally don't like the highly figured wood, so I can "pick through" his stock (always leaving it neatly stacked) and get the curly pieces for my work when I want it for no extra charge. They also don't charge for portions of board that have cracks or cosmetic flaws, but sometimes I can make smaller pieces from those areas.

LOML has a really good policy for calling in and complaining. Have a firm idea in mind when you call of what you really want them to do for you before you dial the phone. Calling and expecting them to come up with an amicable solution is not a good course of action. Be polite, possibly to an extreme, but be very firm and offer your desired solution early on in the conversation. Stay cool, never threaten to take your business elsewhere unless you really plan on doing that and have the ability to do so, they might just take you up on that suggestion. Also talking to a lower level employee may not get you the response you seek, so quietly ask to speak with a manager or the owner. If you feel you need to talk to a higher person in the organization do so politely. You would be amazed at the deals she has received for being nice and knowing in advance what she wants.

Lee

[Wilbur Pan]

Here in New Jersey, it seems that the lumber dealers "measure up" in terms of thickness and width. So 4/4 stock is really 15/16" planed, and if a board is of uneven width, they tend to charge according to the widest point of the board. But length measurements are right on.

[Russell Tribby]

First question that came to my mind is whehter you actually needed the 120" length or if it would have ended up as so much scrap. If I needed 10' lengths, then I would definitely call tehm, be polite and explain the need.

Where I shop for lumber, I routinely get more than what I pay for in terms of feet of material. Since I can use short pieces (30-48") in many of my projects, these represent waste to my supplier and he will often give me a couple of extras to get them off his floor. Also since he supplies mainly to contractors for trim work, they generally don't like the highly figured wood, so I can "pick through" his stock (always leaving it neatly stacked) and get the curly pieces for my work when I want it for no extra charge. They also don't charge for portions of board that have cracks or cosmetic flaws, but sometimes I can make smaller pieces from those areas.

LOML has a really good policy for calling in and complaining. Have a firm idea in mind when you call of what you really want them to do for you before you dial the phone. Calling and expecting them to come up with an amicable solution is not a good course of action. Be polite, possibly to an extreme, but be very firm and offer your desired solution early on in the conversation. Stay cool, never threaten to take your business elsewhere unless you really plan on doing that and have the ability to do so, they might just take you up on that suggestion. Also talking to a lower level employee may not get you the response you seek, so quietly ask to speak with a manager or the owner. If you feel you need to talk to a higher person in the organization do so politely. You would be amazed at the deals she has received for being nice and knowing in advance what she wants.

Lee

Lee, it's interesting that you brought this up. The very reason I found out the boards were much shorter than 10' was because I was planning my cuts and counted on the boards being 10'. When they weren't it kind of through a monkey wrench in my plans. I guess this is a lesson learned for me. Next time I will measure the boards when I pick them up.
When I go to the other supplier I always pick my own stock but this place has done a good job of giving me good stuff.

[Steve Clardy]

If I specify 10' I would expect 10' lumber.

What they have done is sell you 9' lumber.

As far as rounding up the numbers to 82', they should have stopped at 81'.
But I wouldn't have worried about that 1/2'

[Thomas Pender]

I like to receive what I pay for. I think the variance Russell reported is inexcusable. Just think how much that adds to their bottom line to be able to short sell 10% or more. It of bugs me too, because he contracted for "x" BF and received less.

When I buy from Northland Forrest Products I always pull and measure my own boards, which can be a real workout in the summer time. Typically a 10" board will be 121 or 122 to allow for checks, etc. I also notice that 4/4's are always 4/4 or better - same with all their other dimensions. None of that 15/16 stuff - I can always resaw a 5/4 to get two 1/2's. Then I measure width with their BF calculator stick and that does round up - but just a little. The manager would never think of shorting me and typically adjusts the price to account for condition out of the ordinary. Now perhaps it is possible I have been spoiled, but if so, I like it. Plus, I am a very loyal customer and tell others of NFP's honesty and dependability.

My own philosophy is that we put up with way too much poor customer service and flat out dishonesty as a nation. IMO, I think we would all be better off with insisting we get what we pay for. Kind of like the honor code I experienced while in college - We did not tolerate anyone who lied, cheated, or stole. Why should we tolerate short measure? Do we want .95 of gas in each gallon? Doesn't that get expensive very quick?

Well, please excuse my rant, but I see no gray in what happened to Russell.

[Rod Sheridan]

The mill I purchase from always rounds in favour of the customer, not the mill.

They use the narrowest part of the board to calculate width, and the material is always very slightly larger than the quarter by about 1/32".

Of course the above is for rough material, if you purchase S2S from the mill, you receive less lumber than you paid for since they convert back to the original quarter dimension when they calculate price. (They keep the planer chips you've paid for).

Regards, Rod.

[Von Bickley]

If I specify 10' I would expect 10' lumber.

What they have done is sell you 9' lumber.

As far as rounding up the numbers to 82', they should have stopped at 81'.
But I wouldn't have worried about that 1/2'


I agree with Steve. I would probably have a talk with somebody......

[Mike Robbins]

Every time I've gotten wood (S3S from Peach State) it's been a just bit more BF than what is on the ticket, or about right on. I'd be disappointed if I was shorted by 10-12%, unless there was a clear add-back on the pricelist. I've seen lines that I've seen at some places.
like;

"add back into BF calculation 7% for Kiln Shrinkange and 11% if the material has been straight line ripped"

How I'd react would depend on if it's still a good price for what I actually paid, if it was just a one-time incident or a repeat thing, and also if I expected to shop there again, as well if I like dealing with the people there, sweet deals in the past (getting to pick through the 'damaged' plywood pile to get sheets that were 70% good and paying $10 dollars for it, big discounts on random shorts, etc...)

Might be worth a friendly call and let them know what you got. Who knows they may just be looking for the opportunity to serve you and say 'crap- we must have mismeasured. you want more wood or cash back?'