Clamps-Bessey or Jet

[Robert Chapman]

I'm thinking about improving my clamps to Bessey Revo K Body or Jet's version of the same clamp. What's the experience with these clamps? Recommendations?

[Sonny Edmonds]

I like Bessy clamps.
Others have left me wanting.

[Randy Carnley]

I have not used the Revo clamps but I sure like the Jet better than the old style Bessey.

[Mike Heidrick]

Buy whatever you can get the best deal on. I have been finding Bessey Revos at Farm and Fleet for the sale price of the 3rd gen Bessy KBodies (red head with new plastic/rubber handle).

Comes down to price and if you want the trigger or not.

Size is nice on the revos but the plastic jaw pads/covers slide around a bit too much for me. Again though it is price that controls these buys for me.

[Jim Becker]

I'm sure that both clamps are just fine...and the deal would be what caught my eye. While I have all Bessy's (a lot of them and the older version) and would seriously consider the new version if I needed more, if I were offered a great deal on multiples of 4 for some other name parallel clamp, I'd seriously consider them. I say multiples of four in that I prefer find that number of "identical" clamps is most useful when doing assembly and glue-up.

[Ron Knapp]

I have both old style Bessey and Jet and the Jet wins hands down. I Don't know about the new Bessey clamps.

[Mike Wellner]

Bessey, I will not touch JET stuff.

[glenn bradley]

The Jets have some nice features but I went with Besseys due to less weight.

[Mike Heidrick]

Bessey, I will not touch JET stuff.

Why is that?

[Mike Heidrick]

The Jets have some nice features but I went with Besseys due to less weight.


New Revos are very heavy. Jorgy heavy.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Bessey, no good reason other then just I like them better.

[Larry Edgerton]

I do a lot of bent laminated round work and so lots of clamping and the Bessey type of clamps are hard on my hands. The handles require that you have too hard a grip. I chiseled a flat spot on one side, and it helps, but it is still hard on old hands. I find myself using my old Jorgensen bar clamps with their crank handles more and more often, and I have replaced my Jorgenson F clamps with Columbia for no other reason than they have a large triangle shaped handle that doesn't torture my old hands. I looked at the new Besseys and the Jorgensons, and the handles didn't look like much of an improvement to me.

[Dave Bureau]

I have Jets and the old besseys. I always grab for the jets first. i bought the besseys when they went on sale but use them when i run out of jets.
DAve

[Maurice Ungaro]

I am sorry to say that I have only gotten to use Gross-Stabil clamps as of last week. That's because Woodpeckers had a blowout on the last remaining lot of 24" clamps. Bessey bought out GS, and when you look at the "new" Besseys, you realize how they are really a copy of the GS clamps.
Hate to tell you, but now I wish ALL my clamps were GS! That being said, and missed opportunities being what they are, I'd tell you to go with the best deal you can find, and don't worry about it. Both Bessey and Jet are fine clamps, just be prudent with your money - you'll need it.

PS: "Revo" really should be "Retro", as in a Retro styled GS clamp!

[Jim Fox]

Can't comment on the Jets, but I prefer the Jorgies over Bessies any day. Stupid ribbing on the Bessies can be a PITA.

[Eric DeSilva]

Can't comment on revos, but I have a collection of Bessey K bodies and the similar Jets... I reach for the Jets first.

[Dave Sweeney]

I prefer the Jets.

[Kyle Kraft]

I got a set of Jets for Christmas and haven't stopped using them. I personally think they are pretty nice.

[Scott Wigginton]

This winter I've been building my clamp collection. I looked at the Jets and REVO's and compared them to the original K-bodies at their original price.

For the Jets I said to myself I would pay the premium to get what this gives me over the older K-body. For the REVO I couldn't say the same thing. I put the Jets on my Christmast list and got two 24"s and really enjoy them.

Then Woodcraft had their winter blowout on the older K-bodies and I bought six 24" and four 40" for the same price as four 24" and two 40" Jets (I only had two 60" K-bodies before Christmas).

[Dewey Torres]

Here is a recent thread that is related here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=98469&highlight=surprised

[Robert Parrish]

I have Jets and Besseys and I like Jets the best. Better feel and don't slip as much when I store them up high.

[Matt Benton]

My two criteria for clamps are simple and heavy-duty. To that end, I use Jorgy's...

[Jeremy Rayburn]

I don't think you can even compare the K Body's with the new Revo's. I used both last night for a glue up and it's amazing the improvement in the Revo's. The weight, bigger clamping surface, and especially being able to get a good grip when turning the handle. Personally, I've never used the Jet's though...

[Chris Kennedy]

Like many others, I reach for my JET's first over my old-style K-bodies. That being said, if there is a deal on Besseys, I definitely consider it. They're both good clamps.

I like the quick release on the JET, and I also like being to screw bench dogs into them and secure them on my bench.

[Brad Noble]

I have over 30 Besseys and just a few (6) Jets of different sizes and I must admit that "I love my Besseys". The Jets are very nice and I'm sure that with some time I will be just as confident with the Jets as I am my Besseys.

Brad

[Wilbur Pan]

Am I the only one that likes Wetzlers?

I know that they are not parallel style clamps, but honestly, I think they work really well for panel glue ups (and any other glue ups, for that matter).

[Rob Sack]

I have a shop full of Besseys. Eventually many of the start to slip. I don't have that problem with my Jorgensons. No more Besseys for me.

[Robert Chapman]

Thanks a lot for your input guys. After a careful review of your opinions and what's available for what cost I ordered the Jet Parallel Clamp Framing Kit from Woodwerks for $159.00. It's got 2 24" and 2 40" clamps plus supports and bench dogs. Seems like a good start for me. Anyone want to buy my Pony pipe clamps?

[Jim O'Dell]

For those of you with the old Bessey wooden handles that would like a better grip, I saw Thursday evening on Ask This Old House, a viewer tip on using tennis racket regrip material on a hammer handle. It has a cushioning effect, plus doesn't slip in your hand as easy as the wood would (does?). :) They said that there is enough material in a 5 or 6 dollar package that would do 3 hammers. I'd think you could get 6 grips for clamps done easy.
I got in on the Woodcraft Bessey deal. 8-40" and 4-24" and got 4 extenders to boot. I like the handle. I feel I get a good grip on it. Might be a little easier if it was something other than round, but I don't see it as a problem. In fact, I glued up 5 drawers last night, and used all of them in the process. Now if it will just warm up enough to get out there and mount them in the multifunction cabinets!
Any new clamps I get I plan to be the Jets. I like the features they offer with the quick release, and the bench dog capability. Had I watched close enough on the Stanley/Baileys when Big Lots had them, I might have gotten a few of them to have for back up. But I waited too long, or my store didn't get any of them. Jim.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Robert,
Keep those pipe clamps! They will come in handy.

[Bob Genovesi]

Another vote for Bessy....

[Homer Faucett]

Jets, hand's down. I like the quick release trigger. Less likely to have the jaw fall when moving or storing, and the grips are nicer.

[Mike Heidrick]

And another vote to keep your pipe clamps! Don't ever sell clamps. Let your widow do that unless she uses them then let the butler get rid of them!:cool:

[Will Blick]

These threads pop up every 6 months or so.... all good comments above.... I will only add one... the Besseys allow you to double up clamps with the Extender product, a nice feature for those times you need longer clamps.

But if performance is an issue (that's what clamping is all about, to generate force).... that's a different story, and it takes a pressure gauge to determine the amount of force a clamp can generate. The ww magazines have run a few articles in this in the past year...

Here is the breakdown in order of performance, best to worst... (all based on my avg strength male hands)

1) Stanley Bailey Parallel clamps
Clamp pressure -1100 lbs
Slippage over 4 hours - 10% (clearly the best) here is 4 hour pix.

http://k43.pbase.com/o6/25/583725/1/103632192.lcah4n1R.Stanley4hrs.jpg


2) Bessy K Body (non Revo)

Clamp pressure - 800 lbs
Slippage over 4 hrs - 30%


3) Bessey REVO

Clamp pressure - ~ 750 lbs
Slippage over 4 hours - 35%
pix below

http://i.pbase.com/o6/25/583725/1/103632137.0R0LS1Gl.2k4hrs.jpg



4) Jets, about equal to the REVO's

5) Gross Stabil (no wonder Bessey has discountinued these)

Clamp Pressure - 500 lbs
Slippage over 4 hours - 40%


I found it interesting the ww magazines results pretty much agreed with my findings. Building up the grips on the old K bodies is still makes a great and versatile clamp. I can't fathom why the new Revos do not perform as well...their fist mistake is they did not increase the girth of the grip, dumb... Stanley is the only maker that got the grip right. I lubed the threads on the Revos, but to no avail. The Revos obviously have other well designed features, assuming you can make use of them....see Besseys web site.

Anyway, there is more to a clamp than just pressure. But if you want "y" pressure on a joint line, if you use clamps that acheive 2x the pressure, you can use half the clamp count, hence why I pay attention to pressure.

Big Lots, (a close out retailer) got a load of the Stanleys Baileys in, I can only guess Stanley is either discountinuing them, or coming out with a new model... prices were in the $12 range for 24"... I would have snapped them ALL up if I had a store near me...

[Mike Heidrick]

Take the black covers off the revo and try again. 1500lbs is what bessey is touting now.

[Will Blick]

> Take the black covers off the revo and try again. 1500lbs is what bessey is touting now.


I had already tried that...the black covers are harder than the red body.... I think they are for replacement purposes (in case you nick them), or maybe accessory replacements (just guessing, maybe for cosmetics?). Regardless, NO difference in clamp pressure, 750 lbs on avg. IIRC, I think the ww magazine test came up with the same for the Revo, but can't recall, its been several months...


I would NOT rely on any claims by these makers.... even the original K's were touted at 1000 lbs... I think the Revo they started touting 1500 lbs, then reduced it to 1000 lb claim.


I find it ironic, Stanley is the only parallel clamp that makes no claims, and yet they produce by far the most powerful clamp.... Stanely missed a great opportunity to market their clamps superiority in this regard. The Revo is a nice clamp IMO.... its just too bad Bessey did not improve more over the K's, at least in force... the handle is nice, but about the same girth as the original K.... I thought they would have designed a 90 deg. tilting handle, so everyone can generate 1000 lbs min force., without over grips on the handles, or ripping your skin :-(

The only real downer for me is the Revos slippage, very poor... Hence why I only have a handful of them, I won't buy more. Oh well.... the key is, knowing the approx. force they can generate...and if they are slipper's, staying on top of them... re-tightens are in order when using longer drying glue. With the Stanleys, you can pretty much, set em, and forget em.... (wasn't that an infomercial?)

[Dewey Torres]

I thought this topic was beat to death but it got interesting again.

Will,
Thanks for the research!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

This ought to make this lively...

How much force do you need??? If your joinery is good, why on earth, would you need 1500#'s of clamping pressure? Even and consistant is way more important than brute force, IMHO.

[Will Blick]

Thanks Dewey....

although all this has been written previously in other threads, I will re write a few other juicy tid bits about clamps that I have learned... having the a pressure gauge really opened my eyes to what is REALLY happening. The tricky thing is with clamps, you can blast two clamps till your skin hurts, you assume both are applying equal force, yet, one is producing 3x the force vs the other...


Bar clamps are the MASTER of force. I have a garden variety of them... due to their 90 deg handle design, they can generate 1400 - 1500 lbs of force by my avg. hands. AND if you use black pipe, they hold fairly well.... what a bargain these are!


HOWEVER, if you use the Nickel coated (or other coated pipe) they slip so bad, they are practically useless. The Rockler variety nickel pipe, went from 1500 lbs to 500 lbs in less than 20 minutes... YIKES.... all that work to make a glue up secure and the pressure is radically changing before the glue dries!!! OUCH ....argggggg... The softer the pipe, the better.... if you see a ton of knick marks in the pipe, those are keepers !


Also, the Bessey tradesman clamps are VERY weak in force.... (these are sold at different jaw depths) even though they are "industrial" clamps, their longer throats cause flexing (this is why bar clamps excel) .... I have some ultra heavy 10" throat Bessey Tradesmans... and they only produce about 350 lbs of force. If the the jaws open more, the problem gets worse, at 12", only 250 lbs of max. force.

It's just the nature of the clamp... other makers probably suffer equally. You reach a point of max. force between the jaws, you tighten further and the added force goes directly into flexing the jaws and the bar. Visually obvious. A clamp that could resist this added force, and translate the added force to the the workpiece, would probably weigh 30 lbs :-) And trust me, these Tradesman clamps are already VERY heavy. Regardless, they get into areas where other clamps can not, so they serve a very useful purpose, but its good to know their outputs...

The lower end Uni Klamps from Bessey, as expected, very very low clamp pressure, IIRC, about 250 - 300 lbs. Still handy for light duty applications.....

The GS, at 500 lbs, several of them self destructed...either the handle broke, or the internals locked up... in the trash they went......if you own these, don't push them too hard.


The Jets benefited greatly by putting some teflon lubricant on the threads...... direct from the factory, they only hit 500 lbs on avg... a little lube they all improved dramaticaly, about 50% increase to 750 lbs. For some reason, Jet doesn't lube em at the factory, wheras the other makers, none benefited from lube....obviously, they were pre lubed. So if you own the jets, use a few drops of teflon lube on the threads, you will get 50% added force...

[Will Blick]

> How much force do you need??? If your joinery is good, why on earth, would you need 1500#'s of clamping pressure?


And here comes the reason why I try to avoid these threads.... this issue became so toxic in a previous thread, the moderators had to shut down the thread.... I will address this in short form....


1) not all glue joints require max. glue holding force. I sometimes use blue tape or rubber bands for small moldings. It works perfect. There is a lot of glue surface, and there is no opposing force on the moldings..... so obviously, some common sense comes into play here....

2) Many other joints such as M&T take their loads "wood to wood", vs. "at the glue line", so once again, max. glue holding force is not required at all... again, common sense...

3) Where understanding pressure is important - is a joint that can endure force at the glue line... the most obvious examples are edge glue ups for table tops, or even hardwood edging applied to tops. In these cases, I prefer to follow the glue manufacturers recommendations for max. glue holding force, which is approx. 200 - 250 psi for hardwoods. Many of the wood science groups also publish similar values based on their testing.... millions of dollars have been spent on this research, I prefer to benefit from this research, others do not.....

the simple math is....

48" edge glue up, 1" thick boards = 48 sq inches * 200 psi = 9600 lbs of total force

If your clamps produce 1500 lbs of force, 9600 / 1500 = 6 clamps

If your clamps produce 500 lbs of force, you need 18 clamps.


This is why it's good to know how much force your clamps can generate. Not only does this amount of force create max. glue holding pressure, it also creates a .002 - .003" glue line, which makes it nearly invisible. I prefer very tight glue lines such as this...they practically are invisible... the eye is very sensitive, even to a few thous...


Whether you want to follow these recommendations is a matter or choice. If you use less pressure, the glue will obviously hold, but not at the max. holding force the glue is capable of. That may, or may not, be a problem in the future, often based on the loads, use, abuse that glue line receives during its life. Think of a few people sitting on a table top, with only the glue keeping the boards together.


That's the short story.... Hopefully the flames will remain low.... ducking for cover....

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Will, as we all saw in the FWW story on joint strength, and at least some of us by our own experiance, the glue rarely fails. It's usually the wood around the glueline. If you want an invisible glueline, as do I, use a jointer or some other means of creating a perfect fit, and maybe even spring the joint a bit.

Best clamp I owned for the first couple years of woodworking, was a lone Vise-Grip Quick Clamp. I sleep on one of its projects every night, and to date, none of those early, underclamped joints have failed.

The pressure numbers you have tested are interesting, especially in regard to the manufacturers claims. Keep up the good work, and please don't take this as an attack, just perspective.

[Mike Heidrick]

Where do I get this pressure gauge?

[Will Blick]

> the glue rarely fails.


Steve, I mentioned this previously.... glue rarely fails after the glue up... however, glue weakens over time.... that is the purpose to achieve max. holding force - when the application calls for it.




> If you want an invisible glueline, as do I, use a jointer or some other means of creating a perfect fit, and maybe even spring the joint a bit.


I do use a jointer... within less than an hour, after a board is milled, it will move at the glue line as the wood is "fresh".... this is significant enough to require the recommended force. The longer the board, the more movement. I have tested this with a 48" straight edge, and the glue engineers were right. So, in theory, if you can mill and glue in less than an hour, Titebond engineers suggest 50 psi is all that is required. I never can mill n glue within an hour.



> I sleep on one of its projects every night, and to date, none of those early, underclamped joints have failed.


This IMO how the flames start (although this statement is certainly not inflammatory) As mentioned previously, a good joint such as a M&T, with a tight fit, can be held together successfully for our life time with bubble gum IMO... as the loads on the joints are not at the glue line... however, not true with all joinery, specifically table tops... this is where the "common sense" component comes into play. As mentioned, I think blue tape and rubber bands is all the force you ever need for many glue ups...

Mike, these gauges are hard to find, not sure why... They are sold by metal working shops, for the purpose of checking clamping pressure in milling machines. I bought mine many years ago...If I can find the link, I will post it...