Electric Truck

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

http://www.mpgomatic.com/2008/11/09/electric-ford-f-150/

Impressive.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Yes, very impressive. Aftermarket ALWAYS leads the majors.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I was chatting with da Missus about building one not too long ago. I'd need about 14 Gees on top of the truck.
I rather like the 4 motors design. More power - lots more power and is one fails you can still go.

There is a Cooper that has this 4 motor approach but they went wild giving the thing 600 HP. I rather suspect it needs a recharge every 1/4 mile.

One down side to carrying a thousand or two pounds of extra weight (battery) is the stopping distance.
But the engine and tranny have to be about 1500. so maybe it's not all that much more.

I should think the Hummer would be perfect for this application what with it's independent heavy duty suspension.

[Pete Simmons]

I will be the electric car naysayer here.

Please do not take this wrong. I want to see the next great breakthrough come along and help our energy problems but without a true burst of innovation, electric, hydrogen and solar cars are at best a stepping stone to some new technology and at worst a cruel lie to the public who is being told these are the solution to our energy use.

I predict the Chevy Volt will seal GM's end and put them completly out of business.

Electric Car Inventions = Last 50 years = None

Just about every "new" electric car is just a rehash of how to assemble stock components. I say stock I mean maybe not stock and easily available to you or me but easily obtained by the big boys like GM, Ford, Toyota and more.

Wheel motors = Just a specialized layout of a very conventional electric motor.

Batteries = Just the packing together of the best you can find at the time depending how much $$$ you want to spend on them. Every type of battery has it's pros and cons but all have to many cons.

All of this adds up to a vehicle that does not have the performance/range of many easily obtained gasoline autos that have 5 or 6 gallons of gas in the tank.

Lets not forget the energy to charge those batteries still needs to come from somewhere.

Hydrogen = an energy dream that may kill the last chances of a successful American economy. Does anyone know of any source of hydrogen other than using large amounts of energy to make it?

The real problen is at this point in time with our available technology there is no viable way to store and use the amount of energy for transportation that can be done with a gallon of gasoline.

I do not like the thought of it but when gas is $50 per gallon there will still be a few internal combustion cars on the road.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Nothing wrong with using the tech one has to do something good.

The ICE engine consumes about 3/4 of the energy it produces just overcoming friction and reversing inertial forces. It's a wonder the things work at all. A testament to Engineers and mechanics it is but, still a wonder. An engine that runs on hydrogen has all the failure points of any ICE including internal friction and inertial reversals. So it'll still be consuming most of the fuel just to keep the engine running.

Electric has only two bearings to overcome. So what energy you produce is so very much more available for torque at the road.

Battery tech has to come a ways yet still but, I really think it's quite feasible so long as the consumer is willing to pony up about $3 to $5 Grand every few years to replace them.

And electric power is high torque.

I don't think it's the end of the be-alls but it's pretty good stuff and it's prolly not worth holding one's breath waiting to nuclear powered cars.

I am rather enamored with the idea of having an electric vehicle.

[Mike Henderson]

There's a difference between a true electric vehicle, like the EV-1 and a plug in hybrid like the Chevy Volt. The problem with the EV-1 was that the storage was limited and it took a long time to recharge the battery. So if you went somewhere and didn't have enough power to get home, you were stuck trying to find a recharging station and you had to sit there for quite while to recharge the battery.

A plug in hybrid eliminates that problem because it has an on board gasoline powered motor/generator set. So when your battery doesn't have enough power to get you home, the motor starts off automatically and provides electricity to power the car. In doing so, the car generates more pollution and it costs you a lot more per mile, but you get home where you can plug in and recharge your battery.

A plug in hybrid is not the answer for all situations. For example, someone who does essentially all long distance driving will not gain much (if any) advantage because the motor will be running most of the time. But for approximately 80% of the drivers in the US, who drive less than 50 miles per day, a plug in hybrid is ideal.

The fuel cost (electricity) is quite a bit less per mile than for gasoline, and there's no changes required to the infrastructure. Homes already have electricity service, and the demand on the grid is low at night when charging will take place.

Batteries are expensive today, but, like everything else technology based, will come down over time. I expect people will line up to buy the first plug in hybrids (from GM and others), and sales will grow over time, as it did with the Prius.

No, I'm quite excited about the new generation of hybrid electric vehicles and see them as the automotive future. In ten years, it's likely that many of us will own a plug in hybrid vehicle. I certainly expect to be one.

Mike

[Pete Simmons]

"The ICE engine consumes about 3/4 of the energy it produces just overcoming friction and reversing inertial forces."

-------------------------------------

Yes - Electric motors are very efficient compared to an ICE engine but if you follow the trail of the energy back to where it was generated you will find a long trail of energy robbing steps along the way.

For this example lets use a large fossil powered electrical generation station. For a gallon of fuel burned how much energy can you get at your motor in your electric car.

1. Huge losses in the first step - making steam to power the turbine. Where do you think all the excess heat they get rid of (cooling towers, rivers etc) at a power station comes from? It comes from the burned fuel.

2. Transmission losses to get from the generation station to your house.

3. Battery charging / discharging losses. Again lotza excess heat all made by the electrical energy.

4. Finally the energy gets to your efficient electric motor.

Not sure what all the losses add up to but when followed from the fuel that made the energy to the hum of an electric motor I would bet the overall efficiency is in the same ballpark as your very inefficient ICE engine.

When it comes to energy there is no free lunch!

I have an electric golf cart. When I charge it the batteries get warm. The charger gets warm. The main connection wire gets warm. To bad I cannot get that wasted energy into the batteries instead of just released to the environment.

[Mitchell Andrus]

There's a difference between a true electric vehicle, like the EV-1 and a plug in hybrid like the Chevy Volt. The problem with the EV-1 was that the storage was limited and it took a long time to recharge the battery. So if you went somewhere and didn't have enough power to get home, you were stuck trying to find a recharging station and you had to sit there for quite while to recharge the battery.

A plug in hybrid eliminates that problem because it has an on board gasoline powered motor/generator set. So when your battery doesn't have enough power to get you home, the motor starts off automatically and provides electricity to power the car. In doing so, the car generates more pollution and it costs you a lot more per mile, but you get home where you can plug in and recharge your battery.

A plug in hybrid is not the answer for all situations. For example, someone who does essentially all long distance driving will not gain much (if any) advantage because the motor will be running most of the time. But for approximately 80% of the drivers in the US, who drive less than 50 miles per day, a plug in hybrid is ideal.

The fuel cost (electricity) is quite a bit less per mile than for gasoline, and there's no changes required to the infrastructure. Homes already have electricity service, and the demand on the grid is low at night when charging will take place.

Batteries are expensive today, but, like everything else technology based, will come down over time. I expect people will line up to buy the first plug in hybrids (from GM and others), and sales will grow over time, as it did with the Prius.

No, I'm quite excited about the new generation of hybrid electric vehicles and see them as the automotive future. In ten years, it's likely that many of us will own a plug in hybrid vehicle. I certainly expect to be one.

Mike


I agree with everything you said. But... just be clear:

Hybrids run with a gasoline engine drive train AND an electric drive train.

Plug-in hybrids run with a gasoline engine drive train AND an electric drive train.

Plug-in electrics run on an electric drive train.

Hybrid Series Electrics run on an electric drive train only, and have a gasoline powered battery charger for off-grid charging and immediate consumption.

The advantages to the HSE's are that the batteries can be kept at full charge most of the time. The gas engine runs only at it's most fuel-efficient RPM range. Electric drive runs efficiently at any power range, unlike IC engines.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Yes - Electric motors are very efficient compared to an ICE engine but if you follow the trail of the energy back to where it was generated you will find a long trail of energy robbing steps along the way.

I'll assume they're working it all of this. Heck, I'll bet the diesel truck used to transport gasoline to your filling station used some fuel too. To say nothing of the gas used to get the attendants to work, the refinery employees to work, the oil rig builders and operators to work and the power to run the tankers, and Exxon's corporate HQ..... There are power losses no matter where we get it from.


I'm amazed that gasoline isn't $10.00/gallon.

.

[Pete Simmons]

Mitch - I like your tag line

Optomists invent airplanes...
Pessimists buy parachutes.


With my negative posting on electric vehicles you would probably put me in the parachute group.

NOPE - I built and flew a Long-EZ for many years with no problems. Flew off my restricted hours in the CT/RI area then promptly headed for Florida with one on my kids in the back.

Long-EZ - Burt Rutan designed Foam and fiberglass 2 person experimental aircraft, canard wing, rear mounted engine. Cruise 160 knots range 1600 miles ++

BTW - Never had or carried a chute. Why would anyone ever exit a still flying aircraft?

[Mitchell Andrus]

BTW - Never had or carried a chute. Why would anyone ever exit a still flying aircraft?

I did - once. To celebrate one year off chemo. That was 17 years ago. Thrilling, but once was enough. They say the second time is harder.

[Randal Stevenson]

I predict the Chevy Volt will seal GM's end and put them completly out of business.



IMHO, the Volt completely targets the wrong audience. Lower income people, who use their car mostly to travel to and from work and to the grocery/diaper (getting started) stores, are the ones who should be targeted. A lot more of them, tend to work closer to home, so they can save up and get a better place. An electric car that is supposed to START at around 40K and they want it to compete with a Prius? (still a higher priced car, but Toyota still targets starter cars more)

[Dennis Peacock]

I did - once. To celebrate one year off chemo. That was 17 years ago. Thrilling, but once was enough. They say the second time is harder.

Well, let's hope and pray that you NEVER have a second time with that particular battle. Once is enough IMHO.

[Jerome Hanby]

Hydrogen = an energy dream that may kill the last chances of a successful American economy. Does anyone know of any source of hydrogen other than using large amounts of energy to make it?


Actually the highest yield of hydrogen from the least bulk that I can think of off the top of my head is ...drum roll please... gasoline. It's a pretty dense method of storing energy. I guess that's why it's still a viable option for mobile energy even in fairly low efficiency applications like internal combustion engines.

[Jerome Hanby]

There's a difference between a true electric vehicle, like the EV-1 and a plug in hybrid like the Chevy Volt. The problem with the EV-1 was that the storage was limited and it took a long time to recharge the battery. So if you went somewhere and didn't have enough power to get home, you were stuck trying to find a recharging station and you had to sit there for quite while to recharge the battery.

I definitely don't have first hand knowledge of this, but the documentary "Who killed the electric car" appears to be an accurate view on the subject. Regardless, toward the end of that film, they were viewing an EV-1 that was decommissioned and donated to an auto museum. They were talking to someone who builds electric racing cars. His statement was that they could have used his batteries in a stock EV-1 and raised the cruising range to about 200 miles. Since his batteries were Li-Ion, the possibility of fast chargers in addition to the extended range could take edge of those limitations.

Of course, I'm not claiming those batteries would last forever. For all I know they might be useless after only a few thousand miles worth of charge/discharge cycles.

[Pete Simmons]

Actually the highest yield of hydrogen from the least bulk that I can think of off the top of my head is ...drum roll please... gasoline. It's a pretty dense method of storing energy. I guess that's why it's still a viable option for mobile energy even in fairly low efficiency applications like internal combustion engines.


Jerome - You are right on target.

Most people might not believe it but there is more Hydrogen in a gallon of gas than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen!

Has a lot to do with the gallon of gas weighs about 6 pounds, the gallon of liquid hydrogen is less than 1 pound. Actually 0.59 pounds

[Mike Henderson]

"The ICE engine consumes about 3/4 of the energy it produces just overcoming friction and reversing inertial forces."

-------------------------------------

Yes - Electric motors are very efficient compared to an ICE engine but if you follow the trail of the energy back to where it was generated you will find a long trail of energy robbing steps along the way.

For this example lets use a large fossil powered electrical generation station. For a gallon of fuel burned how much energy can you get at your motor in your electric car.

1. Huge losses in the first step - making steam to power the turbine. Where do you think all the excess heat they get rid of (cooling towers, rivers etc) at a power station comes from? It comes from the burned fuel.

Any transformation of energy, such as from gasoline to kinetic energy, involves losses. However, when you compare the efficiency of the power in the electricity generate to the power inherent in the fuel, a large power plant is much more efficient than a gasoline engine - almost double the efficiency.

2. Transmission losses to get from the generation station to your house.

The losses involved in electricity transmission are MUCH less than the energy cost to transport a fuel with mass (such as gasoline).

3. Battery charging / discharging losses. Again lotza excess heat all made by the electrical energy.

A Li-ion battery can store and return about 90% of the input electric energy.

4. Finally the energy gets to your efficient electric motor.

Yep, and the system efficiency of an electric drive car is significantly greater than a gasoline car or a hydrogen fueled car.

Not sure what all the losses add up to but when followed from the fuel that made the energy to the hum of an electric motor I would bet the overall efficiency is in the same ballpark as your very inefficient ICE engine.

When it comes to energy there is no free lunch!

I have an electric golf cart. When I charge it the batteries get warm. The charger gets warm. The main connection wire gets warm. To bad I cannot get that wasted energy into the batteries instead of just released to the environment.

You do not get a 90% return when charging a lead acid battery.


Please see my comment within your post.

I don't know what you are arguing about. We all know that gasoline is energy dense, but it has a number of other problems, such as pollution, cost and availability. Gasoline or diesel is ideal for long distance driving. But for about 80% of drivers, a plug in hybrid will greatly reduce their need for gasoline and we will not need infrastructure upgrades.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

IMHO, the Volt completely targets the wrong audience. Lower income people, who use their car mostly to travel to and from work and to the grocery/diaper (getting started) stores, are the ones who should be targeted. A lot more of them, tend to work closer to home, so they can save up and get a better place. An electric car that is supposed to START at around 40K and they want it to compete with a Prius? (still a higher priced car, but Toyota still targets starter cars more)
While a hybrid will not be cheap initially, lower income people have choices of small gasoline or diesel powered cars which get high MPG and cost less to purchase. It's kind of a "pay me now or pay me later" problem. If you buy a plug in hybrid, you get cheap fuel cost per mile but higher initial purchase price. If you buy a low cost gasoline powered car, you get lower entry cost, but higher fuel cost per mile.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Hydrogen = an energy dream that may kill the last chances of a successful American economy. Does anyone know of any source of hydrogen other than using large amounts of energy to make it?

Hydrogen is a loser. If you get hydrogen from crude oil you aren't doing much to reduce our dependency on oil. And if you get it from electrolysis of water, the system efficiency is pretty bad (starting with the electricity needed to make hydrogen, transporting the hydrogen, and conversion losses in a fuel cell to go back to electricity). Additionally, we have no hydrogen infrastructure in place.

I don't understand where the hydrogen advocates are coming from. I wonder if they've never looked at the system cost.

Mike

[Pete Simmons]

Mike -

Not arguing. Just pointing out there are lotza other factors as to where the energy comes from and to factor in pollution, cost and availability.

Many EV proponents give the impression that if one could snap their finger and convert all cars to electric they would have the answers to all our energy problems. I am pointing out that would just open up a whole new series of problems. Many of which the casual looker of a new EV does not think of.

BTW - There is a button on the dash of most cars (I live in Florida) that when pushed just destroys the EV concept. That button is labeled AC.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike -

Not arguing. Just pointing out there are lotza other factors as to where the energy comes from and to factor in pollution, cost and availability.

Many EV proponents give the impression that if one could snap their finger and convert all cars to electric they would have the answers to all our energy problems. I am pointing out that would just open up a whole new series of problems. Many of which the casual looker of a new EV does not think of.

BTW - There is a button on the dash of most cars (I live in Florida) that when pushed just destroys the EV concept. That button is labeled AC.
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by the term "EV" - whether it's an electric only vehicle, like the GM EV-1 or any vehicle that uses electricity for motive power.

But regarding the air conditioner, electric vehicles use an electric motor to drive the AC compressor, just like the AC in your home. It's actually more efficient than the gasoline motor driven compressor because that compressor has to work at varying rotational speeds.

Just as the AC in a gasoline powered car reduces the MPG, use of the AC in an battery driven vehicle will reduce the range. But I don't see that as any significant problem for the battery driven car. For a hybrid, it would just mean that the gasoline motor/generator would be called upon earlier than if the AC is not used.

Mike

[I might point out that the power needed to drive an air conditioner is a small fraction of the power needed to drive the car. An AC adds to the drain on the battery but it in no way makes a battery driven car infeasible.]

[Kevin Arceneaux]

Well, will it let me put a couple of yards of dirt in it and still be able to pull?

[Mike Henderson]

Well, will it let me put a couple of yards of dirt in it and still be able to pull?
A hybrid, such as a plug in hybrid, is not intended to be all things to all people. It's targeted at a specific group of people, probably commuters who travel less than 50 miles per day.

For a truck, especially one that hauls heavy loads, gasoline or diesel may be a better solution.

What the plug in hybrid can do is reduce our dependence on foreign oil because the generation of electricity is more efficient than using petroleum in a car, or allow us to use green electricity. Better efficiency or green generation will reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Additionally, the lower pollution emissions from the cars will improve the air quality of cities.

For the customer, the advantage is lower fuel cost. Over time, as the cost of batteries decrease, the full cost per mile (fuel plus depreciation cost) will be even better.

Mike

[John Schreiber]

There are no magic bullets out there that will make everything better. We're just looking at what compromises we will have to make.

The great majority of the time it's just me in the car going less than 40 miles per day. I should be driving a battery powered one or two person electric three wheeler most of the time. (If I can't ride a bike.) I imagine that one change we will see is much easier access to rentals to meet the needs we have just a few weeks out of a year. Another is more and better public transportation. If I drive around with a ton of equipment and materials all the time, the most appropriate vehicle is probably a big pickup. By picking the most appropriate vehicle for a given trip, we can save big money.

Change is going to happen. Where we can make a difference is what kind of change it will be.

[Pat Germain]

A few months ago I heard a story on the radio about The Port of Los Angeles switching to electric trucks within the waterfront area. The managers of the facility said people were skeptical, but eventually very fond of the electric trucks. Apparently, they could haul a lot of weight, but weren't designed for long-haul operations. This made them perfect for moving things around within a small area.

These trucks were semi-trucks and not pickups. Thus, I would think a well-equipped electric pickup could indeed haul a lot of weight; to include a load of dirt.

[Sonny Edmonds]

That just might solve all my needs. :rolleyes:
First, I work at a hydro power plant. So I could charge it at work. We pass water anyway, and wring out some electricity from the water passing through.
I need a truck to move my boat out into the street so I can hook up to it with the RV, and to haul home wood.
And in a pinch, I could charge it at home. :D

Yep, a perfect world! :rolleyes:
(The rest of you can just eat your heart out!) :p

[Mike Henderson]

A few months ago I heard a story on the radio about The Port of Los Angeles switching to electric trucks within the waterfront area. The managers of the facility said people were skeptical, but eventually very fond of the electric trucks. Apparently, they could haul a lot of weight, but weren't designed for long-haul operations. This made them perfect for moving things around within a small area.

These trucks were semi-trucks and not pickups. Thus, I would think a well-equipped electric pickup could indeed haul a lot of weight; to include a load of dirt.
I think you'll get power or range, but not both.

Mike

[Frank Hagan]

Electric cars suffer from the "energy density" of the batteries. The EV1, with all of its 2nd generation nickle metal hydride batteries, had as much energy at full charge as there is in 1/2 gallon of gasoline.

There's a lot of puffery in the stats on electric cars too. They will list "Top Speed: 95 MPH" and "Range: 65 miles". But the range is a maximum at some low speed (usually 15 or 25 MPH), not that top speed as you'd expect. The electric VW bug conversions will go up to 45 MPH, but you can only go about 12 miles at that speed. At 25 MPH, you can get up to about 25 miles range. Recharging takes 8 - 10 hours. These are home-built cars, using lead acid batteries, and I'm working from memory on the stats; check out the real world posts at diyelectriccar.com forums for specfics. Cold weather also affects the energy output of most batteries. The energy density problem gets worse and worse as you add batteries, then consume more power for the extra weight of the batteries. Lion batteries may help, but not at a magnitude high enough to make the vehicles acceptable to many of us.

But hybrids work well in small, light cars.

The mild hybrids like the Prius and the upcoming series hybrid Chevy Volt also recover energy when coasting and braking. Using the feedback from the guages, I increased my overall mileage in my Prius by 10% just by learning to use a light touch on the gas pedal while cruising. At 65 MPH, I can use "electric only mode" (the ICE shuts off) when cruising downhill or on level ground for quite a few miles. My average over the last 20 tankfuls is 50.1 MPG; my daily commute is 45 miles from Oxnard CA to Santa Barbara on the 101 Freeway, with 20% of the miles city driving. The Volt should beat that; I suspect someone would get about 75 MPG on the same route.

The one thing that always amuses me is the cost-calculation people do only with hybrids. I had a guy in a $38,000, tricked out Ford F150 ask me if I thought the "premium" for the Prius was worth the extra cost of the car. "We" don't buy cars using cost-calculations; "we" buy cars emotionally, with young guys buying big tricked out trucks that never see a load in the bed (except for those huge, $600 speakers) and my middle-aged buddies buying two seater cars that can't tow anything but will go 145 mph. And they cost $65,000 for power you can't (legally) use. People will buy the Volt if its fashionable to do so, even if it costs $40,000.

My Prius cost $21,000 after the tax credit, comparable to the other cars I was looking at (Camry, Corrolla, etc.) It was the most comfortable of the cars I tested for a "commuter car", so I went with it. I did buy after a cost-calcuation, but more than "cost" went into the decision.

[Pete Simmons]

Frank - Great post on why you bought a Prius.

Since all the energy used by the Prius comes from the fuel in the tank I am surprised that they seem to work so well. I have spoken with many Prius owners and all of them are very happy with the car.

I wonder what percentage of fuel savings come from:
1. easy engine shut off
2. Battery system including Regen braking
3. Just a better more efficient drive train

I would like to see a test drive over varied driving conditions of 3 Prius type cars but based on the following:

Car 1 - Standard Prius
Car 2 - Same but without the drive train battery. Just enough battery to handle the frequent stopping and starting of the engine.
Car 3 - Same as #2 above but without the quick engine shutoff when not needed.

I would expect Car 2&3 to weigh quite a bit less than a standard Prius.

I would be interested in the milage of the 3 cars. I think shutting the engine down when not needed for some length of time is a great idea.

Regen braking and batteries - a good idea but it makes me wonder if the benefits are overcome by the problem of carrying the extra weight of the batteries around. Now if it was a Plug-In Prius I would expect the regen braking to be worth it since you need the battery anyway.


Frank - BTW thanks for the link to your friend over in the other thread

"From his web page at http://evnut.com/ ... click on "Solar" in the left menu."

Very interesting stuff.

[Frank Hagan]

Frank - Great post on why you bought a Prius.

Since all the energy used by the Prius comes from the fuel in the tank I am surprised that they seem to work so well. I have spoken with many Prius owners and all of them are very happy with the car.

I wonder what percentage of fuel savings come from:
1. easy engine shut off
2. Battery system including Regen braking
3. Just a better more efficient drive train


I've wondered the same thing. The Prius also works well because the internal combustion engine (ICE) is an Atkinson cycle engine rather than an Otto cycle engine. The Atkinson cycle engine sacrifices power for efficiency ... see this Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle) for more info. Going from zero to 35 might be a huge chore for an Atkinson cycle car without the electric assist the Prius has. There's an efficiency gain there that would be unacceptable without the low end torque and accelleration you get from the electric motor assist. (One of the things that impressed me about the Prius was that it had the best accelleration from zero to 35 of any of the small cars, even though its zero to 60 number is not impressive at all ... but the extra oomph is improtant to me when entering freeway onramps).

Shutting off the ICE frequently ... I estimate its off about 30% of the time ... has to help also. Bosch has developed the components necessary to enable this in standard ICE powertrains, so you'll see it on more cars soon, adding about 10% to the mileage. At first it was disconcerting to have the engine shut off at every stop light, while in the drive-thru lane, etc. But now I wonder just how much fuel I'm wasting when I'm in my Sporttrac at a stop light.

I've read that only about 22% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline goes to rolling the tires. And then the forces all cars face ... wind resistance, friction of the tires on the pavement, etc., come into play. Wind resistance is a huge problem with cars. The Prius, like the EV1, has one of the lowest drag coefficients out there, so that helps with mileage a lot. The underside of the Prius has a sheild to avoid wind resistance against the engine. They could cut the resistance quite a bit more if they removed the outside mirrors and used cameras, but that's probably not possible in the near term. The Aptera, one of those concept cars you can only invest in right now, had to go back to outside mirrors even though they previously said doing so would DOUBLE the drag coefficient.

Those are probably the reasons larger cars don't do much better with the addition of an expensive hybrid system. A Toyota Highlander gets a bit better mileage, but its profile is still an energy-robbing upright SUV, so you only get marginal gains. Electric trucks, like the S-10 conversions out there, give you power, speed or towing capacity ... choose any one of those, and none of them can get you long range driving. If you add more batteries for more power, you add weight and get even less range. Reduce weight in batteries to get range and you sacrifice power and top speed.

[Darren Salyer]

My state has a 17 cent per gallon state tax and an 18 cent per gallon federal tax on gasoline. I can't begin to estimate the number of gallons of gas pumped per MINUTE in my state alone, much less the nation. I feel the powers that be can't comprehend how they would replace the BILLIONS of dollars of lost revenue an alternative fueled transportation system would cause. Change will come about at a snails pace at best.

[Mike Henderson]

My state has a 17 cent per gallon state tax and an 18 cent per gallon federal tax on gasoline. I can't begin to estimate the number of gallons of gas pumped per MINUTE in my state alone, much less the nation. I feel the powers that be can't comprehend how they would replace the BILLIONS of dollars of lost revenue an alternative fueled transportation system would cause. Change will come about at a snails pace at best.
The primary thing I've heard talked about is a mileage tax. Each year you would report your mileage and pay a tax on the amount of driving you do. There's problems with that, of course, since it doesn't discourage vehicles which use lots of fuel (a Prius would pay the same as a Hummer). So I suppose the final thing will be a combination of mileage tax and fuel tax.

Mike

[Jerome Hanby]

My state has a 17 cent per gallon state tax and an 18 cent per gallon federal tax on gasoline. I can't begin to estimate the number of gallons of gas pumped per MINUTE in my state alone, much less the nation. I feel the powers that be can't comprehend how they would replace the BILLIONS of dollars of lost revenue an alternative fueled transportation system would cause. Change will come about at a snails pace at best.

I may be off track here, but if the people that were dropping out of the fuel tax pool were driving smaller, lighter vehicles, wouldn't they be committing less wear and tear on the roadways and dropping the demand for roadway maintenance that those taxes pay for?

I think the right approach is to get put the squeeze on everyone driving big, "gas guzzling" vehicles by restricting access. Say by limiting them to the right lane only on interstates, restricting them to ten dollar purchases at gas stations, things like that. Nothing that would preclude you from driving what you want, no additional taxes, just inconveniences. It's goofy that I see dozens of huge trucks and SUVs on my daily trek to and from work with only one passenger. No way are all of those people going by Costco or the lumber yard on the way home from work. And after getting slammed into the wall on I-459 by some driver that didn't even bother to stop, I realized that I had to stop driving my 40+ MPG Honda CRX because it was going to get me killed. If most of the traffic were smaller, it would make it safer to drive a "smarter" vehicle.