Seriously thinking about picking up welding

[Scott Coffelt]

I have never done it and will be looking for some classes in town, but for a beginner what would be a good (not Minimax Caliper) set-up to begin with? I realize there is that same old questions of what you wanna do with it? I invision working with the lighter to mid-gauge steel, a little heavier then what you buy at HD. I would like to be able to weld up things for the shop, incorporate into some furniture (in the past I have sub out that portion) like bases and what not. I would like to keep at 110v as I do not have 220 in the garage and no space left to add in the panel anyways. What the difference between Tig and Mig? I assume I want to lean towards a wire feed system, also any good books or other resources online to look at? Thanks

[James Carmichael]

I'm anxious to see some replys as this is a skill I've always seen a lot of use for and would love to hear some advice on how to get started learning.

Fortunately, the previous owner of my house bequeathed me a 220 circuit in the garage.

[Dick Parr]

MIG would be the way to go for home. But welding and sawdust do NOT mix. :eek: It can cause a fire hours later from one spark. TIG is expensive and cumbersome unless you are doing small fine art work. Stick and MIG will handle medium to large jobs for the shop.

[Scott Coffelt]

I plan on having the welding in the garage and I have a dedicated shop in my basement. So that's why I have no 220 available. I was thinking the mig is what I was needing.

[Chris Padilla]

Welding is something I've also wanted to learn...there are too many times where I've thought, "Darn it, if I could just weld this sucker yadda, yadda, yadda..." and I'd be done a half-hour sooner or wouldn't need to go get a new one or something.

I think if you keep your shop CLEAN, welding and woodworking could work together. I'm working a DC system right now so perhaps one of these days.... :D Oh, I'll have PLENTY of 240 V when all is said and done.... :rolleyes:

[Allan Johanson]

I'm no welding expert, but have taken a couple classes here and there. After all my research, I ended up with a Millermatic 175A machine (240V). But the 130A Miller (120V) is a nice machine too. I'm not sure what the input current specifications are for the 120V machines, but they might want to live on a 20A circuit if you want to weld 1/8" material with gas.

So....if you only have #14 wires in the walls on a 15A circuit, you may as well toss in a 30A, 240V circuit with #10 wire for a basic 240V MIG. :D My welder can draw up to 20A @ 240V when welding the max 1/4" material.

TIG is great for aluminum and fancy stuff like the "art" the guys on American Chopper (and similar TV shows) create. But a nice TIG welder is quite expensive.

I think for a typical home shop hobbyist welder guy, a MIG is the way to go. I'm a fan of using gas and solid wire, instead of the flux-core wire. Flux-core has its uses though, like welding outside on a windy day when the wind would blow away any kind of regular shielding gas. On some machines flux-core wire can also allow you to weld thicker metals. But typically gas makes for a cleaner, nicer weld.

My uses for the MIG are misc shop items like my outfeed table, cyclone, mobile bases, storage racks, stainless steel workbench for automotive stuff and even for a circle jig for my router. The welder saved my bacon when I screwed up. :) I also have a project car I need to do some rust repair on and I'll be using the MIG a lot for that.

Once you have a welder you'll be finding more uses for it. I'll be making some of my own free-weight exercise stands/gear with the MIG too.

A couple more items to note:

- Buy a quality auto-darkening helmet. Mine darkens in 1/25000 of a second and I LOVE it. The pros are fine with the basic flip helmet, but I'm not a pro and I've done the head flip thing and never got completely comfortable with it. But I love the new helmet.

- Make a note of the THINNEST and THICKEST metal you'd like to weld. This will determine what machine you should buy. I know you said a 120V machine....but depending on what you'd like to do, you may be changing your mind. Don't quote me on this, but the 120V machines might be advertised as being able to weld 3/16" metal - but I think that's with flux-core wire. With solid wire and gas, the max capacity might be 1/8" metal at max current.

- Also be aware that some machines like the Miller can weld as thin as 24ga metal. But the cheaper Hobart line that Miller makes can only weld as thin as 22ga. The Miller is more flexible in this area.

- Where to buy one? This is one case where I'll suggest to go to your local welding store and talk to those guys and buy it from them. The local BORG staffer might be able to tell you if they have a MIG on the shelf, but typically not much beyond that. They probably don't even know what MIG stands for. Go to the local shop and buy from them. You can typically also take a welder for a "test-weld" at the store too. In my area they have a little booth of sorts and will show you what to do. You can also try out different auto-darkening helmets too. These guys are a great resource....build a nice relationship with them. When you are trying to weld thin, rusty metal and keep blowing holes through it, they can give you some ideas, not the BORG salesman!

Want to lurk on a welding forum and hear from the real pros? Try this:

http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/

Good luck!

Allan

[Chris Padilla]

Excellent, Allan...thanks so much...just what I (we?) was (were) looking for! :D

[Rob Russell]

I bought a welder a couple of years ago. It's a little bit of an odd duck - a Lincoln Electric SP135. It doesn't have the current capacity (and therefore can't weld as thick) as a 175 amp machine - but it is a 240v machine which is unusual for the 135 amp class. It is a MIG welder, capable of both solid-core wire with gas and flux-core wire.

I've taken no classes. The guy that I bought it from gave me a 1/2 hour lesson on welding. I found a local place that would let me dumpster dive for scrap metal, practice welding on it and toss it back in their dumpter.

I WILL be getting one of the auto-darkening helmets. As a welding newbie, it's tough to do the helmet flip when you're trying to coordinate a whole bunch of things at once - tip placement and angle, direction of travel, proximity to the weld puddle, etc. - right before you pull the trigger.

Duty cycle is something to look at. The lighter machines will only have a 20 or 30% duty cycle - which means weld 30 seconds, then wait a minute. If you have any sort of long weld, it's frustrating to finally get a good puddle going on thicker stock only to have the welder cycle on you.

I did some research and welding forum lurking before I bought. TIG looks like the overall most flexible, but hardest to learn. MIG is easiser to learn, but not quite as flexible ini terms of materials it'll weld. If you want to do aluminum on a MIG welder, you really need to look at something like a Miller 210 with the spool gun. Because aluminum conducts the heat away so quickly, you need to crank up the amperage and wire feed settings. Aluminum wire is softer and will "birds nest" on a typical MIG gun, so the spool guns pull the wire through rather than the typical push.

So far, I've been basically happy with the MIG setup. My skill is definitely newbie - I've made some pretty lousy looking welds and a few nice ones. I did repair my BIL's treadmill.

The advice of dealing with a welding shop is good. If you don't have 240v in the garage, either run it or fabricate a really heavy duty extension cord that you can plug into a 240v receptacle at the house.

Were I to buy again, I'd go with a Millermatic 210. Keep an eye out for clean used machines - you might find a nice one.

[James Carmichael]

Great stuff guys, thanks for taking the time to reply!

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks for the input, I hope there are more out there as this is really informative. As far as wiring, I have 12 gauge 20 amp wiring in the garage. I will look tonight and see if I can squeeze a couple of more tandem breakers in the panel to free up a 220 circuit.

I went to HD at lunch jsut to check things out and saw the Lincoln brand name. I think I would prefer to go with something like a Miller (price limiting). For what I am planning, 1/8 to 3/16 would most likely cover me, though the ability to handle 1/4" would be nice. No plans for Aluminum. I've also heard of ESEB (OK saw it on Monster House) and yes I saw Miller on American Chopper.

If I do decide to do something, I will look into the auto diming mask. I am not sure I want to do the whole mask flipping thing.

[Paul Downes]

First of all, MIG stands for Metal-Inert-Gas. It would be more accurate to call a wire welder a Gmaw, or gas-metal-arc-welder. TIG is tungsten-inert-gas, and also is better called a Gtaw process.

For a first time welder who wants to do light fabrication on thinner stock, such as is commonly found in an automobile, you can get by with a 110 volt welder most of the time. These small wire machines can weld 3/16" thick steel in ONE pass, generally. While they do lack sufficiant heat at their max setting to melt heavier stock effectively and get enough penetration, you can bevel grind thicker stock and do multiple passes. They are great for welding auto body sheet metal. Scott, If you plan on fabricating your own mobile bases and such, a 110v Miller or Lincoln wire machine will get the job done. They are rated at about 120-130 amps max output. I would highly recommend that you get instruction from either a knowledgable welder, or take a class. Wire welding may look easy, but I can testify that it is not. I teach repair welding @ work and we get all of our welds tested in our lab. Many people who learned to weld on the 'farm' are supprised at how easy I can break their 'welds'. It is important to learn what a good weld is. Looks can be decieving.
Flux core wire is more smokey and tends to spatter more. It is good for welding outdoors and also for certain processes. I've used it with shielding gas to weld boilers and you get a real smooth bead. Mostly we use gas shielding and solid wire. You can weld stainless steel with a wire machine.

If you can swing a 60a, 220v circuit you might consider a stick welder. You can match the stick size and type to the job which makes it flexible. I just welded a new stainless handle on my rototiller with a stainless rod and it looks real nice. Millers lightning buzz box is a nice unit. This would probably be the cheapest route to be able to weld most things for the shop. I have an old (69) Lincoln Idealarc 250 I picked up for $75 that gets it done at home. Used is good :D .

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks again, holy cow I just did some Internet searches, I can tell you the Miller and like are way outside my budget. So, I will preface the question to what is a good starting unit sub-$500. I am willing to look for something used if there is something that I should keep my eye on. Again, only a hobbiest here and I have no plans to go crazy welding just want to begin.

I knew this was a great place to ask these questions.

[Dick Parr]

Again I will make note that welding and sawdust do not mix. Having spent about 30 years welding everything, from rail cars to nuclear reactors with the exception of underwater, I have seen to many fires started from welders, including myself. Wood chips and sawdust settle into the smallest places and all it takes is one small piece of hot metal to fly and start to smolder and then there goes everything in the middle of the night. I have seen fires start hours after the last welding was completed.

If you have to weld in the same shop, please make sure you put some tarps around the area you are welding in to keep the sparks and hot metal from flying.

Oh ya, Rob and Paul gave some good information on what you need.

[Gary Whitt]

Scott,
Be sure to check out used equipment. Sometimes a person dies and their family sells stuff for pennies on the dollar because they don't know what the items are worth.
Also, check some of your local pawn shops.
Or a welder that wants to upgrade might sell you his used equipment.

[Keith Outten]

Scott,

I have an old Miller 225 amp Thunderbolt stick welder that has served me well for over ten years. My Dad bought the machine used for 50 bucks and I bought the welder from him when he upgraded. The real benefit to an older machine like mine is that it has a copper transformer and thus a much higher duty cycle. All of the newer machines in the homeowner line are built with aluminum transformers.

Months ago I purchased an old Crafsman MIG machine, at 90 amps it is only usefull for thin sheet metal. I use it for wrought iron work and it works fine for welding light flatbar and small rod.

No matter what machine you buy whether it be SMAW or MIG make sure you purchase quality electrodes or wire (I prefer Lincoln). You will need a good grinder, either air or electric and some kind of metal cutting band saw. A portaband will do nicely for starters.

Welding can be just as addictive as lathe work, I just though you might like to know :)

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks, I've yet to find a hobby that requires tools that is cheap. SWMBO and I got into glass fusing, $1,000 later we have the basics to get started. Of course, anything bigger then about 8x8" will require a much bigger and more expensive lathe. I figured I would need a grinder and a good metal chop saw. Hack sawing it OK to start with, but not my plan.

What are people's thoughts on the Lincoln SP135?

[Wes Bischel]

Scott,
I have a little Lincoln welder - the older version of the SP135 you noted. I started with the flux core, but bought a conversion kit to go to gas - yet to be installed. :rolleyes: It has served me well, though most of what I have used it for is small sheetmetal work. A friend uses his to "tack" together larger, thicker projects, then has a "real" welder friend of his do the actual structural welding. He calls it "piece of mind" since he only pulls out the welder a few times a year. Something to consider.

Wes

[Paul Downes]

Scott, the Lincoln SP135 is a nice little unit. I have 2 at work for welding thin stock. We have the industrial version which has reostats for both wire feed speed and for voltage control.
I misnamed Miller's buzz box as a lightning in the previous post, it is called a Thunderbolt as Kieth pointed out. I liked that machine more than the lincoln buzz boxes that every farm supply seems to sell. It has a reostat for voltage control that I found much more user friendly for out of position welding.(upside down and vertical) Check out farm auctions and the newspaper ads, I see used equipment quite often. E-bay can be a mixed bag. Some folks will bid items up to near new cost-for used equipment, go figure. The only good deals I've seen there was on 3-phase large power supplies and the like (600 amps etc.)

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Scott,

You have gotten a lot of good information. I will second the Miller 175 MIG if you can swing the 220. The 135 may work well for you you must stick to the 110. If you go lighter than this you will be limited to sheet metal. A friend of mine has a Campbell Hausfield machine that really suprised me. Take the class first if you can before you buy anything. Finding scrap steel at the moment to practice on may be a bit harder due to the cost of steel now.

Do you have a good welding store in your area? Some of the stores on Ebay sell stuff with free shipping for a fair price. I'm luck to have several stores in my area and I worked through college working for a steel storage tank company. It is the opinion of the people that I deal with that Miller's quality is surpassing Lincoln's for the moment. Also a welding supply will be much cheaper to buy supplies at than the borg in small guantities.

Have fun,

[Tyler Howell]

Busy taking notes here! Junk Yard Wars and Monster Garage here I come. My daughter's SO is a welder so I have been hitting him up for tips.;)

[Scott Coffelt]

I need to check around, I know there are some good metal supply places. I plan to do some yellow page surfing later this week.

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Scott,

As mentioned before, there are a few things you'll need in order to easily play with metal. As in woodworking, there are several ways to do something and therefore, several different kinds of tools you could use to get the job done. Think of all the ways you can make a mortise and tenon joint and you'll understand.

Here's what I reach for at various times when cutting, welding and cleaning up the metal:

Cutting/fitting options:

- Jigsaw with metal cutting blades
- Reciprocating saw with metal cutting blades
- Tin snips (left/right/straight) are handy for thin sheet stock
- Makita 12" dry cutter (funky carbide blade that can cut metal tubing like a CMS can cut a 2x4)
- air powered cut off wheel
- air nibbler
- 4.5" grinder with grinding wheels and cut off wheels
- Hand file for removing the burr from the metal after cutting (not always necessary, but good to do at times)
- Bench grinder (I have the Delta 8" VS grinder....slow speed for hollow grinding chisels, etc and high speed for hogging off metal)

Cleaning options:

- Lacquer thinner for cleaning factory oils off metal
- wire cup on above mentioned 4.5" grinder for cleaning area to be welded, and for post-weld cleaning too (if required). When I was making my cyclone I was constantly swapping the grinding wheel for the wire cup...I think I'll buy a second grinder for dedicated wire cup use.

Handling/safety options:

- Mechanix MPact gloves for handling metal (good for air tools too)
- Full face shield when using jigsaw because little bits of metal go flying. Also use a full shield when grinding and using a wire wheel. DON'T IGNORE THIS!
- Ear protection (grinding/cutting is loud)
- Low profile cartridge respirator that will fit under your welding helmet. Get cartridges for welding fumes. Also, please try to avoid welding galvanized metal (zinc) - it will release very toxic fumes.

Welding gear:

- MIG Welder with regulator and tank
- Home made 25 foot extension cord (10 gauge wire)
- Welding gloves
- Auto darkening helmet
- Anti-spatter goo
- A few dedicated welding clamps (funky vise-grips)
- A pair of diagonal side cutters that I use to cut the wire at the gun to the proper length prior to starting a weld (called "stickout")
- 90 deg welding clamp/vise thing (like a corner clamp for making picture frames)
- A welding cart to hold all this stuff! :)

I'm not trying to scare you, but your $500 budget can easily be blown depending on which route you want to go. I'm not sure if the $500 you mentioned was just for the welder or for everything included.

The above mentioned gear is my personal choice for various reasons. There are cheaper/better/easier things to do at times and when you are at a point where you can ask a more specific question, I'm sure you'll get plenty of great advice here from these fine folks. Cutting tubing is one area. I have a very expensive metal cutting miter saw that I love. But one of those 14" abrasive saws will work (with a massive amount of smoke and sparks), or a portable metal cutting bandsaw can work too. Or stick with the jigsaw/reciprocating saw. Or use a cut-off wheel on a grinder. You don't need all the tools, but some work better than others at times and I'm fortunate enough to have a choice. I used to have an oxy/acetylene torch too, but it died. That was great for cutting up thick chunks of steel.

As mentioned elsewhere, welding can produce numberous sparks....but grinding can produce an insane amount of sparks too! And a constant stream of them at times. You've got to watch that. Watch those fumes too. I wear the respirator all the time when welding/grinding now. One time I didn't bother to wear the respirator and my head was messed up for two days. I did a little welding of galvanized metal too. Never do that without a respirator. NEVER!!!

Good luck!

Allan

[Rob Russell]

Scott, the Lincoln SP135 is a nice little unit. I have 2 at work for welding thin stock. We have the industrial version which has reostats for both wire feed speed and for voltage control.

Sounds exactly like the machine I've got - adjustable speed and voltage.

[Chris Padilla]

Just like any new area you enter, there are always costs associated with it. Try taking on a new sport...Geeez! :)

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks again for the advice. Well I didn't have all the stuff to do WWing right up front, so I know there will be some basic things I can not live without (i.e., welder, mask, etc.) I do already have several of the items you mentioned, but others will need to be added. No, I didn't expect I could fully get into it for $500, but do want to get started for that. I will then treat like I do WWing and add tools over time.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Allen,

How did you kill the torch????

Do you still have it? Torches are pretty simple. It can probably be fixed fairly cheaply.

Let me know the particulars and I can probably help you out.

Later

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Charles,

Thanks for the offer of help, but I was, well, greatly over-simplifying the problem with the torch. I figured saying it was dead was good enough to explain it as an option for cutting steel and why I'm not using it anymore. :)

Here's the full story:

I lent my complete oxy/acetylene setup with old style flip helmet to a friend. He had it for a very long time (months and months). My brother needed it so I told him to grab it from my friend. I was a little shocked to see my setup at my brother's when he picked it up.

- Broken glass on the regulator gauges
- Broken glass on the helmet (held in place with tape and zip straps)
- Torches looking all beat up
- Cutting torch not working very well (clogged?)
- Missing gloves

Since I had no need for it at the time, my brother got to keep it.

As of today the tanks are too old to be refilled without recertification/replacement and the hoses look cracked with age and I wouldn't trust them. I don't even know if my brother has the setup anymore.

So....like I said, the torch died. And it can't be fixed. :(

But thanks again for the offer. If I get into oxy/acetylene again I'll keep you in mind if I have problems. But man....did I ever have some good times with that cutting torch! :D

Allan

[Mike Wilkins]

Hello Scott. Just read this thread since I don't visit this part of the Creek
very often. I got a 135A MIG welder several months ago since metal work
has always interested me. I took a welding class 20 years ago using a stick
welder and gas torch, but like anything else, if you don't use it you lose it.
The welder I got uses flux cored wire, but is capable of using solid wire with
a gas set-up, and runs on 115v. My shop has #12 wire on these circuits.

Around a woodworking shop, you will find all kinds of uses for a welder which
is why I wanted one for a long time. My most recent project was making a
mobile base for my Laguna bandsaw. There is a guy named Dizzy who has
made some nice mobile bases and a router table for his shop using welded
steel, with professional looking results.

As far as using it in your woodworking shop; as long as you keep the piles of
sawdust/chips cleaned off the floor, fire should not be a concern. But if you
have a seperate work area for the metal stuff, great.
Good luck and watch those fingers.

[Scott Coffelt]

So Mike, how has that unit faired for you? I plan on using it in the garage and I have a dedicated shop in my basement. My biggest concern in the garage will be dealing with the typical lawn stuff like lawn mowers and gas can. I will move the gas can outside when welding to be extra cautious.

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Scott. I received an Email sales flier from Northern Tools. In it, they are offering free shipping on Hobart "select models" welders. The offer is valid through July 8, 2004.

Check it out at NTC free shipping (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?storeId=6970&catalogId=4006970&langId=-1&PHOTOS=on&KEYWORDS=free+shipping+hobart&kw_fmt=free+shipping+hobart&cm_ven=YM&cm_ven=YM&cm_cat=Weld&cm_pla=70104&cm_ite=Copy)

[Don Abele]

Sorry I'm late replying to this thread. I was away for the weekend. I have been welding for the past 10+ years, but am by no means an expert. I am a weekend welder, as it were. I was taught by the Navy welders I work with and would highly recommend at least some sort of practical education prior to buying anything.

I currently have a Lincoln stick welder and a Hobart MIG welder. I rarely use the stick welder because the MIG can do almost everything the stick can, but do it easier and cleaner. I have also welded with a TIG unit and while it handles aluminum and stainless much better, the versitility of the MIG still wins out (and you can use a MIG for aluminum/stainless, just use a different gas and wire).

The unit I have is the Hobart 125 handler. It's a very light-duty unit and runs just over $400. It's 120v and 30 amps. It will work with pretty much anything you throw at it. If you need to do thick stuff, you can do it in multiple passes. Being light duty it does have a low duty cycle rating. But, the longer you weld for, the more you heat the metal and distort it. So stopping every minute or so is better. I purchased my unit from Bob over at BRWelder (http://www.brwelder.com/indextemplate.cfm?file=shop/detail.cfm&ID=636&SubCategory=10) (no affiliation, just a VERY happy customer). Great prices and free shipping.

Others have done a great job at posting the miscellaneous equipment you will need to get started. All in all, plan on dropping close to $1000 to start. It's not a cheap addition to the shop. But, I promise you, it's one that will pay for itself very quickly. And, you'll be amazed at the "opportunities" that arise for you to use it.

The auto-darkening hood is a highly recommended "must have". The respirator is a no questions asked requirement. Welding fumes are highly toxic. Don't weld indoors unless you have positive ventillation. You can buy "spark-proof" sheets for surrounding your welding area for protection. But, as has been pointed out, you want to make sure that sawdust and sparks don't mix.

If you'd like more specific information, please ask.