Soliciting comments re Festool Systainers

[Frank Pellow]

In the tread entitled “Tool Cases –what do you do with them”, several people commented on Festool systainers. In particular, there were several comments about the fact that the inserts that Festool puts within their systainers are away below the quality of the systainers themselves and of their tools.

I am, starting this new thread to solicit additional comments about the systainer inserts. My intention is to collate the responses then send them to Festool in an attempt to get them to bring the quality of their inserts up to the quality of the rest of their products.

Below are a set of comments re systainers that I extracted from the original thread:

Chris Padila:
All my Festool stuff stays in the systainers. I like cases...they work well for me and it makes storage and safe-keeping of the tool easier.
I'll chime in that I also agree the Festool liners are on the cheap, flimsy side and won't last. That said, I'm pretty careful with it. The one holding my CDD-12 drill is doing fine and the 150/5 is holding up well but if I used them daily for my job, I can't see how they would last very long.

Jim Becker:
Like some others, I toss them...EXCEPT for the Systainers that come with Festool and the metal box that my Sawsall lives in. It's not that I don't like the boxes, but for the most part, they take up a lot more space and don't "live together" very well, being different sizes and configurations. Systainers fix that...not that I'd trot out and buy "empty" ones for tools.

Frank Pellow:
In particular, I use the Festool systainers and have even purchased 2 extra systainrs and fitted them out for non-Festool tools.
I agree that the inserts for the Festool systainers are not of the same quality as the rest of their products. So far, mine are lasting OK, but I admit that I am being particularly careful with them. However Jason, I do not understand your comment about limited room for the cords. This is certainly not a problem with the tools that I have.

Jason Roehl
I like having "cased" tools for the various reasons already given--protected from dust and debris, easy transport to jobsite, etc. As for the Festool Systainers, I think they are a great idea, but poor execution. The case itself is fine, but I think the molded plastic insert is flimsy and I can't see it lasting very long, plus the way that insert rides in the case leaves little room for the cord--which to make fit you have to coil up fairly tight.

Greg Mann:
Frank, you and Jason are correct about the Systainer inserts. I believe I will wind up making replacement inserts for my AT55 and my planer. The Rotex insert, while made of the same thin material, seems a little more acceptable but not much. Just enough I probably won't replace it. I could overlook it more easily but Festool touts the Systainer as a significant advantage to their line. Perhaps we need to lobby them to improve these liners. Having said all that, I still love their tools. After using them for some time I guess I would buy them even if they came without the best boxes in the industry, liners notwithstanding.

John Miliunas:
Systainers for all my Festool and, when not in use (seldom!), they're in the systainers. The only other one I'm religious on, is indeed the Sawzall, as it also has room for extra blades. The blow-molded cases, IMHO, are pretty useless and eventually end up in the landfill.
Frank, I concur with your general observations. I too, do NOT have a problem with finding room for the cords on any of my Festool equipment, but the inserts do appear to be on the "delicate" side. For me, I'm both, very careful with them and don't have a need to lug the equipment from job site to job site. That said, others find the Festools GREAT for job site work and this would undoubtedly become an issue for them. I think Festool *should* be made aware of this.

Jay StPeter:
I agree that the systainer liners are flimsy.
After some digging on the Festool site, I see that tools are available without systainers in some other countries. I would gladly pay a little less and forego the systainer totally. Although I like the one for my circular saw, I can't imagine drills or sanders would ever find their way back into the sysainer in my shop. I might prove myself wrong here, but I doubt it

Peter Kuhlman:
I discard all of the cases my tools come in. The Festool Systainers I have stacked in my attic but the blow molded cases that so many portable tools are sold with just get junked.

Mark Valsi:
I have stored the Festool boxes under the house, hate to throw them out ,but they take up too much space in the shop !

[Chris Padilla]

Frank and others,

Could you comment on the case you built to house your Festool plunge saw and guides? Some other gentleman also used a gun case from WalMart that he claimed seemed to be made for the very application!

[Jamie Buxton]

Frank --

Unlike you, I'd avoid doing anything that drives Festool prices even higher. Me, I'd prefer them to lose the fancy boxes, and drop their prices accordingly.

Jamie

[Chris Padilla]

How much do you really think they would drop, Jamie? I doubt it would be significant but then again, significant is a subjective quality.... :)

[Bob Marino]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay in responding to this post (on vacation, sort of). Sometimes being a sales rep for Festool precludes me from jumping into a particular thread, but I sure will pass these comments on to Christian Oltszcher, Festool's CEO.
Not to directly comment on the opinions, I think all good companies welcome the advice/suggestions/comments of thoughtful customers. Festool sure does. That's how products improve. Keep the comments coming.

Regards,

Bob

[Scott Coffelt]

I do not know either, but it would be nice to see options available for cases. Problem is, what they charge to buy a case seperately (not just Festool) is in no relation to what they may drop the price of the tool. I personally like getting the cases with my tools. You then have the old problem with stoking the wrong item case or no case, and the suppliers for sure are not going to carry double inventory, its hard enough to move units let alone try to guess how many folks want cases and don't. Now, a place that does primarily phone and internet and no real retail, should be able to handle that option. You'd find out the real cost of case this way.... problem for the marketing guys though.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank and others,

Could you comment on the case you built to house your Festool plunge saw and guides? Some other gentleman also used a gun case from WalMart that he claimed seemed to be made for the very application!

I will do so.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank --

Unlike you, I'd avoid doing anything that drives Festool prices even higher. Me, I'd prefer them to lose the fancy boxes, and drop their prices accordingly.

Jamie

I will say that some folks prefer the option of not having boxes at all (and, will note that we know that this option is available in some countries).

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay in responding to this post (on vacation, sort of). Sometimes being a sales rep for Festool precludes me from jumping into a particular thread, but I sure will pass these comments on to Christian Oltszcher, Festool's CEO.
Not to directly comment on the opinions, I think all good companies welcome the advice/suggestions/comments of thoughtful customers. Festool sure does. That's how products improve. Keep the comments coming.

Regards,

Bob
Thanks Bob, that is a very fair position for you to take.

Once I have consolidated the responses, I am planning to send them to Festool directly as well as to you with the request to present them to Festool. Do you have any advice re procedure?

[Jim Taylor]

I have about 4 systainers locked together. I really like the common footprint/locking mechanism. However, one more voice to the song... the inserts are no good. There are one or two of them that I have to sit and think about how I just removed the tool in order to figure out how it sits back in.

I remember my surprize on my first Festool purchase, everything was great, but what is this silly little plastic insert...

-Jim

[Jason Thaxton]

I have the festool Planer, Jigsaw and plunge saw. I love the tools and the cases are nice for onsite work but I have to agree the inserts are not the best. I really dislike the jigsaw insert. Every time I take the saw out of the case the flimsy insert feels like it is going to snap most of the time it comes out with the saw spilling all my blades on the floor. I also have all the optional hubs and blades for the planer and they come in styrofome containers it would be nice if the insert had some type of storage or a better case (not styrafome)for the extra hubs and blades on the planer. This is really a small complaint because the tools are awesome but I'm sure festool would like and apreciate any feedback we could give them to make their tools better.

[Chris Padilla]

On that note, Jason, for the two attachments for the drills (or at least for my CDD-12), there are spots for the eccentric and the right-angle chucks and there is room for some loose drill and screwdriver bits.

[Bob Marino]

Thanks Bob, that is a very fair position for you to take.

Once I have consolidated the responses, I am planning to send them to Festool directly as weel as to you with the request to present them to Festool. Do you have any advice re procedure?

Frank,

Christian O does read the forums on a somewhat regular basis, but his email address is ols@festool-usa.com.

Bob

[JayStPeter]

How much do you really think they would drop, Jamie? I doubt it would be significant but then again, significant is a subjective quality.... :)

Chris,

In Australia, the prices listed for the OF1010 router
in box 566,50
in systainer 595,00

You're correct, not super significant. But, then again, if you won't use it why pay the extra 30,00. Hey, it's probably a few vegimite sandwiches.

They offer 4 packages that include rails and rail adapters. In this case, the 2nd most expensive kit is the one offered in the US.
For a router, I don't think I would use the systainer. But, I would want the rail adapter, so the price would probably be a wash to get it.

I'm guessing the longer festool is in the US, the more of these kind of things will make it here. Gotta start with a limited SKU, then move up. Standard business practice.

Jay

[Greg Mann]

Boy, us Festool owners are a sophisticated bunch. But that's okay, most of the other guys think we're nuts anyway. For the most part, it seems from this thread and the one that spawned it, that systainers are generally appreciated and used more than almost all other tool cases (+1), are higher quality and reflect the system philosophy that Festool promotes (+2), and have flimsy liners (-1).

My guess is that this issue of liner quality may be something already under consideration at Festool. They seem to be very interested and committed to continuous improvement of their products. Since the systainers are an integral part of their corporate product line and not something they 'job out' to the lowest bidder, I believe our observations will be given due consideration. If you check out the parent company website www.tooltechnicsystems.com (http://www.tooltechnicsystems.com) , and can get past the language limitations, under the Tanos wing you will find many scenarios using the systainer concept, from picnic baskets to emergency medical kits and beyond. This platform is clearly a money maker in its own right. I would suspect that here in the US they are part of the tool purchase because Festool thinks that is the most effective way to market their product here. MAYBE they should be an option, apparently with better liners, and those of us who want the systainers and would use them would be willing to pay for them and those who don't want them would benefit from a slightly lower price. I doubt Festool wants to foist them on us if we don't want them since the added cost might be enough to keep a percentage of folks from buying the tools in the first place. The real benefit is in starting a dialogue with Festool so that they can receive feedback from the American market and tailor their strategy accordingly. Frank took my remark about lobbying them and ran with it, good work Frank. Let's see how they respond. If this is fruitful maybe we should expand on this as time goes by and use these threads to present ourselves as a loosely knit and informal user's group, an advisory committee on the American market if you will. This would probably not work for DeWalt or PC as the purchasers of their products run across an awfully wide spectrum with different aspirations and expectations. Festool users, I'm guessing, have some pretty specific expectations about performance and it makes sense to let Festool know how they are doing. Nothing real formal, mind you, but maybe we should look at this thread as a model of what we can do in the future. This would also give Festool a nice opportunity to show what they can do and with other WWs peeking in from time to time their performance could win (or lose) some converts. If you think I'm all wet here please feel free to say so.

Greg

[Frank Pellow]

Good analysis of the situation Greg. I will include a lot (maybe even all) of what you have said in my summary.

I really like your suggestion about a Festool Users Group. What do others think about this?

[Manny Hernandez]

I'm extremely disappointed in the new Sys-port 1000 design. I have two of the older ones that have a latch for each drawer. I was very disappointed when I recieved another sometime late last year. No more latches for each drawer and it looks like it was cost reduced all the way around. Without the latches, I have to make sure I lock the cabinet with the key so the the drawers don't come out when I move the unit. It still has the safety feature where if you pull out one drawer the others will lock. However, if you don't lock it with key, then move it and two or more drawers fall open at the same time, they will come all the way out and you must push them all back in unison. If you don't then the first one closed goes back to it's home position but the remaining ones get left out and you can't push them back in unless you pull all out again and try again. They all have to go in at the same time. What a PIA!!
I called Festool to see if they had any old stock, but they didn't. Even spoke to a tech support person named David McGibbon during the Japan Woodworker sale a few weeks ago. Shoulda bought an extra one on my first order a couple years ago. Now I'm willing to pay a premium to get an new old stock. I'm very close to chucking this one in the trash bin.

[Frank Pellow]

Sorry to hear about the flaws in the Sys-port Manny. One of those was high on the list of things that I wanted to acquire for my new workshop. Now, I will have to reconsider.

[Jason Roehl]

I know this isn't about the Systainer, but I have other issues with Festool products that they should hear about. The proprietary dust collection port (oval, for heaven's sakes) was a bad move in my opinion. I'm sure it works great with their vacuums, but that's a significant extra cost. Sure, they do sell an "adapter," but it doesnt' stay on the tool well, or a standard 1.25" hose (if you're gonna sell tools to the American market, metric doesn't cut it). I won't even go into trying to get it to work with a 2.5" hose. Don't get me wrong, I think the dust collection within the 2 Festools I have is great (Rotex and Deltex), but the weak point is getting it hooked to a shopvac, and their vacs are just too darn expensive to justify. My $100 Shopvac easily moves as much air as theirs, and is only a little louder (and doesn't have the classic high-pitched whine). Besides, the Rotex make more annoying sound than the Shopvac. For $20-$30, I can have a HEPA filter on mine, too, which is WAY less than the $450 theirs run (which probably still has a universal motor, for that price, I'd want an induction...), including the HEPA filter.

Again, don't get me wrong, I like the tools, these are just their weak points in my opinion, so don't take this as a rageful rant against Festool.

[Bob Marino]

[QUOTE=Jason Roehl]I know this isn't about the Systainer, but I have other issues with Festool products that they should hear about. The proprietary dust collection port (oval, for heaven's sakes) was a bad move in my opinion. I'm sure it works great with their vacuums, but that's a significant extra cost.

Jason,

I believe the dc ports are shaped according to the design of the tool. Most have a round dc port, a few an oval and the ATF saw, more of a rounded, rectangular shape where the hose adapter fits inside the port. Again, just wanted to offer an explanation.

Bob

[Ed Falis]

Hi Jason,

What I did when I got the plunge saw was to pick up one of their (Festool) hoses, that fits the standard port on other vacs (in my case I have a couple of Waps that it fits). Works fine, and I can use the end that goes into the saw on my orbital sander and some other tools because it's flexible.

- Ed

[Frank Pellow]

Jason, I am not quite sure what to do with your comment nre the dust collection port. I want to send Festool a specific note about their systainers. Maybe I will also send a "miscellaneous other suggestions" note.

I also want to ask you about your comment: "(if you're gonna sell tools to the American market, metric doesn't cut it)". Did you mean that in general, or specifically as concerns the hose? One of the big advantages about the Festool line, in my opinion, is that the tools are metric, so your comment certainly does not apply to everyone.

[Jason Roehl]

Maybe I will also send a "miscellaneous other suggestions" note.
Entirely up to you. I'm just glad to see someone taking a small bull by the horns here.


I also want to ask you about your comment: "(if you're gonna sell tools to the American market, metric doesn't cut it)". Did you mean that in general, or specifically as concerns the hose? One of the big advantages about the Festool line, in my opinion, is that the tools are metric, so your comment certainly does not apply to everyone.
My bad. I should have said, "U.S. market." Standard shopvac hose sizes here in the U.S. are 1.25" and 2.5", but the Festool standard hose is 22mm. The adapter/grommet they sell will accept a 1.25" hose end, but it fits too loosely and frequently falls out (I hate having to gum everything up with tape).

[Dennis Peacock]

OK Frank...Here goes...

I personally like the Systainers. I use them and like the way they store and interlock for easy portability. I like them.

What I don't like about them? The flimsy inserts that come in such a nice case. As much as these tools cost? I'm was surprised to see that the inserts in which to house and protect these expensive tools has a lot to be desired. IMHO, if Festool put in a nice insert in these babies? They would be killer boxes to store their super nice line of tools.

[Frank Pellow]

In a note that Jim Backer sent to me, he offered this comment:

I only have one Festool (so far!), the Triton PS300 EQ jigsaw and have not had an issue with the container. While the insides are not overly robust, they could be more sturdy to be better in line with the quality of the tools. For an occasional user like me, it's really not a problem, but I can see where someone who works with the tools a lot could possibly trash the internals quite easily. Some kind of foam with a separate small internal container for accessories would be nice!

[Frank Pellow]

Gene Collison sent the following to me in a note:

Hi Frank,

I would be inclined to agree with you that the inserts in the systainers seem flimsy. None of mine have cracked so far but the potential is there for sure. It would be nice to see an improvement in this area, a bit more rigidity, foam or something more substantial.
Good luck in your endeavor.

Gene

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi Frank,

I really appreciate your input regarding the Systainer inserts. As you know I'm a Festool fan and really like the Systainers. I've been fascinated by those "boxes" even when I didn't own Festool's. In Europe more and more companies offer their tools in Systainers - at least additionally, for example, Mafell, Protool, Lamello, Metabo, Makita, Scheer, ... I think that customers can benefit from this development.
As for the inserts, I have to agree. I haven't had a single issue with them (I'm only a hobby woodworker and don't use my tools daily) but the quality of those inserts could definitely be improved. It might be helpful if the empty room between the insert and the bottom of the Systainer were stuffed with styropor or something like this.


Unfortunatly, all companies seem to go a different route when it comes to dust ports and suction hoses. This is not a Festool issue IMO. I've noticed that some companies even require adapters within their own tool line (sander and vac from the same company).


The Sys Port's look VERY nice but I would certainly not spend such an enormous amount of money for a simple cabinet. Get yourself a bunch of full extension slides, a sheet of plywood and you can build your own Sys Port. I love the Festool line but I really can't justify these costs.

I also thought about founding a Festool Users Group and even discussed this idea with Bob Marino who informed Christian O. Anyway, this would mean lots of work (moderator, ...) and I wonder who would jump in and help.

Regards,

Christian

[Halsey MCCombs]

Frank I would tend to agree with Jim Becker as I only have the 125 and use in hobby woodworking>Halsey

[Dave Hammelef]

HI, all
Haven't posted much, been spending most of my time working on landscaping and my Corvair.

On the systainer, every time I pop out my Circ saw, or put it back in I expect that flimsy liner to break. Its great that it snap fits to hold the saw but it sure seems flimsy. On the sandpaper holder it would be nice if the paper came with stickers to place next to the space in the systainer thats holding it so you can see what grit is where in a quick glance. still have not used the router so I cant say much about that systainer.

I love the stackability, and connections. More than once I have lifted my circ saw, and vac by the saw's systainer handle, seems fine so far.

Dave

[Dave Avery]

OK Frank, he goes......

Systainers generally.... I love them, but I can't explain why. The fact that they stack together in neat, but highly impractical at the same time. I curse every time I need the systainer that's on the bottom and all the ones above are locked together.

As far as inserts...... I have 3 systainers, Rotex, sandpaper, and vac accessories. I hate to Rotex insert for all the reasons already mentioned. I really like the sandpaper insert - a case where flimsy (read flexible) is a good thing and life won't be significantly impacted in a negative way. The vac systainer has no insert.

Best regards, Dave.

[Frank Pellow]

Christian, your comment that:

In Europe more and more companies offer their tools in Systainers - at least additionally, for example, Mafell, Protool, Lamello, Metabo, Makita, Scheer, ... I think that customers can benefit from this development.

leads to a question. Do any of these companies provide better quality inserts than the ones provided by Festool?

[Kurt Loup]

Frank,

I have the jigsaw and the small sander. Since I am not a commercial user, the inserts have held up for me during occasional use. I agree that the inserts are the weak link as far as the systainers go and are my only complaint. Going on memory, the clear plastic covered section in the jigsaw case is too small to store my blades and the section to store sandpaper in the sander case won't hold the paper securely. As a result, I just throw my blades and sandpaper in the case. I really like the compatible sizes though. I'd like to have other like sized cases for my non Festool tools like my PC belt sander and my Rigid/Metabo 6" sander. If anyone is planning to trash their systainers, send them my way. I'll take them off your hands.

Kurt

[John Renzetti]

Right now I have 4 Festool products. All of them stay in their respective containers. Can't say I have an issue with the inserts. I guess if I really tried I could say that the cord doesn't re wrap and sit well, but that is the same with other cases of different brands I have. As far as the shape of the dust port being oval on some models, not a big deal. The dust port on my Lamello is also oval and I made up a flexible adapter that works well.
In short, no real complaints about the inserts or the systainers themselves. They stack nicely out of the way.
As an aside, in Europe on construction sites you see a lot of Festool and Metabo brand tools. I wonder if Festool has received any feedback on the inserts from the guys who use this stuff on a daily basis.
take care
John

[Christian Aufreiter]

Frank wrote:

Your comment leads to a question. Do any of these companies provide better quality inserts than the ones provided by Festool?

I'm not sure but I don't think that other inserts provide better quality. I can only remember the Mafell inserts and those were comparable to Festool. I guess that Tanos makes all inserts equally.

Regards,

Christian

[Chris Padilla]

Who is Tanos, Christian? Do they handle the inserts for most European tool manufacturers? Perhaps they give good prices and so everyone uses them!?

[Bob Marino]

Who is Tanos, Christian? Do they handle the inserts for most European tool manufacturers? Perhaps they give good prices and so everyone uses them!?

Chris,

Tanos is a "sister company" to Festool, the parent company being Tooltechnics Systems. Sort of like GM to Buick and Cadillac. Tanos is responsible for manufacturing the systainers for Festool, as well as other tool manufactures in Europe.

Bob

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi Chris,

Bob already answered your question. Tooltechnicsystems http://www.tooltechnicsystems.com/ is the name of an organization which consists of three companies:
- Festool http://www.festool.com/
- Protool (A company which produces power tools primarily for construction and carpentry) http://www.protool.de/
- Tanos (the company which makes Systainers) http://www.tanos.de/

As far as I know, the "Systainer®" is a patented invention and Tanos is the only company which is allowed to produce it.

Regards,

Christian

[Frank Pellow]

In a seperate exchange of mail, Jim DeLaney informed me that:

I don't have any comments to make, because I threw the systainer away. I never keep any of the plastic boxes that the tools come in. They take up too much storage space, and unless individually labeled, are a pain to sort through. If I'd kept them, I'd probably have about six or eight gray Porter-Cable boxes, and about that many more black WeWalt cases, in addition to the Festool...

I told him that I, among others, would have paid him for the systainer.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank wrote:

I'm not sure but I don't think that other inserts provide better quality. I can only remember the Mafell inserts and those were comparable to Festool. I guess that Tanos makes all inserts equally.

Regards,

Christian

I guess getting Festool to do anything about the flimsey inserts is going to be a much bigger effort than I thought. Oh well: "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

[Lloyd Robins]

As I have stated before, I really, really like my Festools (there are not enough of them in the shop up to now.) I do use the sustainers for protection of the tool, but I do agree that the liners do not seem to be up to the quality of the sustainer

[Frank Pellow]

In a note to me, Bob said "My own opinion on the inserts is that I wish they were made of a more rubbery type material and/or as Christian A mentioned (good idea) filled with foam. However, none of mine have ripped and they do what they are intended to do - hold the tools securely and precisely, but room for improvemnt certainly exists here" and he gave me permission to quote him.

Thanks Bob.

[Frank Pellow]

I am going to ask to have this thread closed. Until Tuesday, any additional commnets should be made in the thread entitled "Draft of note to be sent to Festool re Systainers".