Router Table vs Shaper

[Brian W Evans]

I've been getting barraged by catalogs with really nice router tables in them and it's got me thinking. I have a small Delta Shopmaster router table with a built-in motor. It works nicely, the price was right ($200 new, IIRC), but it is a little underpowered and the table is quite small. I'd like to upgrade to a bigger table and motor but I don't know if I should:

1) Spend a large amount of money on a router table and a big router (and probably an Incra system), or

2) Buy a decent shaper off of CL. They're always available around here and would give me a cast iron top and plenty of power.

I guess my question is this: can I run router bits in a shaper with an adapter or would I always have to run shaper cutters? I think being limited to shaper cutters would eliminate the shaper as an option.

Thanks.

[pat warner]

Router or shaper (http://patwarner.com/router_or_shaper.html), they each have their merits.

[Paul Steiner]

I would go with the shaper, if you have the space and you will be keeping your router table for the light work. You have a standard duty router and table, if you went with a larger router you would it for moulding, panels, etc. Why not get the machine dedicated to mainly doing the larger heavier work?
Lastly before buying I would recommend using a shaper if you have never used one before. Many people do not like using shapers, they are not comfortable with the power and large cut. Get what you have room for and what you feel comfortable with.

[Jim Kountz]

Oh no here we go again........this one is going to get heated folks so get your flame retardant gear on!!

[Rick Lucrezi]

I went through this last summer. I needed to build some cabnite doors so I wanted to try the T&G with a cutter head instead of the dado on a table saw.

As I started researching I ran into a wall. My best option for my price range was a fox 1 hp shaper. It was a close out model for 300 bucks, and a 3 1/4 hp freud plunge router all ready for table mount. That unit was 350 bucks. I asked around about comparring and the gener consensus was its like apples and oranges. The Freud even though it has a higher hp rating, isnt as powerfull as a one hp motor in the Fox unit. The fox unit did not have variable speed which Freud did. FOx unit is a dedicated machine which needed its own space, the router took up no space, and could be quikly removed and used as a plunge router. I opted for the router mainly because of space, and second because I have a portable saw for jobsite finish work, and I will set it up for the router as well. That has been my bigest problem, and the topic for another thread, but doing most of my work at the job site means I have to load and unload all my tools often, some times I get to the site and realize I for got to grab something I really need. Hope this helped. I am getting a bit long winded this morning. Sorry

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks for the good advice. After I asked this question I found two shapers locally - a Delta for $1250 and a PM for $650 (no motor). Given the option to use a handheld router with jigs/bearing guided bits and the fact that I already have a mediocre router table, I think I'll be acquiring a shaper.

No need to start any flaming - the obvious solution for any true tool junkie faced with a choice like this: have both! :D

[David DeCristoforo]

"...the obvious solution for any true tool junkie faced with a choice like this: have both!"

At least one of each...

Actually, this topic has been beaten to death. There should be a special category for this discussion. Or better yet a "pop-up" list of all the other threads on this subject that appears automatically whenever a post subject containing the words "router" and "shaper" is detected.

[Joe Chritz]

We should lobby for stickies with all the common threads.

I am in the opinion that you should have both or at least a servicable router top of some kind.

Often you need to break a set up to do something and it would be nice to have an alternative to use.

Now that I have a shaper I reallly like the properties of it but still run a lot of router bits in it since shaper cutters can add up to serious dollars in short order.

Joe

[Peter Quinn]

Good deal. I like shapers. I like my router tables too. I made a few mistakes when I first started using a shaper, and I had been trained in a commercial shop, but I still did a few stupid things in the home shop that didn't cost me any fingers but scared the heck out of me. Get some good education and start slowly. When in doubt, ask. There are a hoard of very qualified shaper uses here on the creek to steer you straight and give you advise on different set up options. Its a big versatile machine, but a lot less forgiving of your mistakes than a router in a table.

There are a few odd ducks that have sold a shaper and gone back to router tables only, but mostly people will tell you keep your router table for certain things a shaper can't do, but use the shaper for the heavy lifting and never look back. Oh, did you get a power feeder yet?:D

[Keith Outten]

You can count me as one of the odd ducks. I had a big shaper for years and a very large assortment of shaper bits, never liked the machine or felt comfortable using it...just not my cup of tea :)

Personally I think shapers definately have their place but my gut feeling told me it wasn't the machine for me.

.

[Charlie Plesums]

I belong to the school of shaper lovers, including the big cutters and a 5 hp motor. But I no longer have room in my shop for a router table, so I use the shaper with my router bits, too.

Our woodworking club had a debate, with some of the members arguing for a shaper with router spindles as a better choice than a router table. Those folks were happy with a 1-2 hp induction motor drive and a 1/2 inch spindle. Not a shaper in my book, but to those folks, a really great router table, at a price less than a comparable router table and router.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
My $.02.
The answer is both - either - or neither - as I found out a little while back.

The shaper is just one part of the sum of the total.

My analogy would be:
"Should I get a screw gun for hanging drywall or get a good cordless drill/driver"?
There, as with a shaper, the screw gun or drill is just used for one part of the whole project. It's overkill to go with an expensive screw gun just to hang one wall in the garage or even finish off all the walls in a simple room.
It also excludes all the other tools needed.
Assuming a screw gun will be geared towards "production", in order to really run production, you'll need all the other tools - and more importantly - the skill set with all the other tools, banjo taper, stilts, dead man lift for ceilings, etc, etc.

IMHO - what sparks a thread like this is a sort of crossroads decision based on a specific project which the OP has in mind.

In my case, it was interior doors. (Oak).
The deeper I got into it, the more I realized that, even though a shaper was the proper tool for the project, I had other considerations:

My Ridgid TS3660 110V contractor saw for one. Sad fact is that the saw simply isn't up to the task of ripping that much heavy Oak.

The other major consideration was a jointer. For that type of production, I really needed more than a 110V 8" jointer.

The third major consideration was a surface planer. While my DeWalt lunchbox is a good hobby planer, it's not a production machine.

Lastly - and really most important - was a lack of space. In order to really do the production type work properly, I needed to fabricate a very large, very flat, assembly table.

My bottom line was/is - I'm not equipped with the proper other tools to support the shaper. All things considered - at the present - I'm better off with a router.

HOWEVER - since that may change, my best course - at this time - is to buy tools which, if need be, can be sold for minimal loss in order to fund any future needs.

(sorry to be so long winded - it's really not the simple this or that it may seem to be)

[John Carlo]

I have three shapers, two Deltas and a Steel City. I wanted to have the convenience of having them set up for all three cabinet door operations without changing elevation or distance to the fence. Once set up you can run rails, stiles, and raised panels all day long with ease. I'm hoping to be retired at the end of this school year and want to build an occasional kitchen while working at a viable commercial pace.

Now, here's the rub! Well, not the rub as in rub collars that is.

Cabinet door sets for router tables have a built in bearing surface limiting the depth of the tenon and the mating "groove" if you will. You would still want to use the fence but it can be quickly aligned to the bearing so all you really have to worry about is the elevation of the cutters.

With the shapers, you have a certain trial and error vagueness which requires a few more minutes to get it right. That is unless you add a rub collar to define the depth or maybe your cutter set has one included. This works for me but hey, whatever works for you. Just get good stuff and make sure the router or lift you select will can sit perfectly flush with the table if you go that "route".

[Daniel Thompson]

One problem with running router bits in a shaper using an adaptor is that typically the highest speed for a shaper is around 10,000 rpm which is to slow for std. size router bits like round overs etc.

[John Carlo]

I was not suggesting running router bits on the shaper. I have adapters for two of my shapers but I have a 220 V 3 3/4 hp router in a table of its own. I have tried using some of the largest it bits in the adapters and it does work pretty well there but why go through the work involved in changing spindles with the router available.

[Neal Clayton]

You can count me as one of the odd ducks. I had a big shaper for years and a very large assortment of shaper bits, never liked the machine or felt comfortable using it...just not my cup of tea :)

Personally I think shapers definately have their place but my gut feeling told me it wasn't the machine for me.

.

same here.

space consideration was a big thing, but for my purposes, i just didn't want one after having used both for a year or so. my stepbrother has grizzly's 3hp shaper for making picture frame stock and having used it, it's a great machine for the price, but i think that kind of thing is better done on a molder than a shaper anyway, so i have a molder for moldings and a router table for windows and doors.

is a router table a good value compared to a used shaper? no, i think everyone would agree on that. so if that's your primary consideration the used shaper is the way to go.

[Steve Clardy]

Best to have both.

But that really depends on the work that you want to turn out.

[David DeCristoforo]

OK, here it is. The final word on this. (Oh yeah? Sez who?) If you could only have one but could pick from either, you would be foolish not to go with the shaper. MYTH: You can't run router bits on a shaper because it doesn't spin fast enough. WRONG. You can run any router bit on a shaper (assuming that you have a router collet for your shaper) with no loss in cut quality. You just have to adjust the feed rate. The issue is not RPM, it's CPM (Cuts Per Minute). So there is nothing you can do on a router table that you cannot do on a shaper. But there are many things you can do on a shaper that you cannot do on a router table. You can mount any router bit on a shaper but you cannot mount shaper cutters on a router. Before anyone gets out their whip, let me qualify by saying that the shaper better be a decent shaper with at least a 3HP motor, interchangeable spindles (offering at least 3/4", 1 1/4", 30mm and 40mm options plus the afore mentioned router collet), preferably with an integral sliding table and, ideally a tilting spindle. Granted you are not going to get all of that for the same money you would spend on a decent router table setup but that's another question. The only possible advantage a router table would have would be that you could take the router out and use it freehand.

[Mike Heidrick]

David, Do you think the router bit manufacturers design the router bit cutter design/layout with a minimum rotation speed in mind? 7,000rpm or 10,000 rpm is what my 5hp Delta shaper will do. 10,000-22,000rpm is a typical multi speed shaper range. When running small router bits on the slow speed setting on a router you can get chatter. That happens even with a slow feed rate. Is this corrected on a shaper for some reason? I think it comes down to router bit selection and its cutter layout correct?
I have not run router bits on my shaper so I am asking these questions with interest.

Hmm - makes a good argument to try the quadra cutters from Freud.

[Mike Heidrick]

Absolutely true if you're willing to push the work piece through quickly enough. Personally, I prefer to use small diameter straight bits and such with a router.

Push them more slowly through correct?

[Brian W Evans]

Sorry to dredge up a beat-to-death issue but, as usual, the advice is top notch.

I don't have a specific project in mind but have just been less than pleased with my current setup. I am looking at 30+ more years to enjoy my shop (hobbiest/occasional custom work) and am enjoying the process of acquiring tools and learning how to use them. SWMBO lets me keep acquiring as long as I keep fixing up the house. I could see a shaper coming in very handy with this, so a shaper seems likely.

Thanks again for all the input.

[Ken Milhinch]

One problem with running router bits in a shaper using an adaptor is that typically the highest speed for a shaper is around 10,000 rpm which is to slow for std. size router bits like round overs etc.

Daniel,

That simply is not the case. I run router bits in my shaper all the time and speed (quality of cut) is never an issue.

The answer to the OP is this ; You can run router bits in a shaper, but you can't run shaper cutters in a router. That makes it a simple choice, I think.

[David DeCristoforo]

"When running small router bits on the slow speed setting on a router you can get chatter."

I run small bits on my shaper all the time. By "all the time" I mean daily and for runs of anywhere from a few feet to several hundred feet. And yes, sometimes I get chatter. But if I slow the feed down or set up for climb cuts or both I can always get clean cuts. I do use a feeder but I do a lot of small runs of curved pieces "by hand" and I get good results. Today, for example. I had to cut rabbets in the back sides of several "S" curved bolection mouldings for a pair of entry doors we are making and I used a router bit with a larger than normal bearing because I only wanted a 1/4" deep rabbet (7/8" "tall"). I ran the bit on my Delta shaper with the belt on the high speed and had no issues with chattering. I just used a slow steady feed rate. I'm sure that by feeding a bit faster I could have ripped those mouldings up pretty good. I'm not saying that this is "the best" way to do this. Just that If I had to pick between a router table and a shaper, it would be a "no brainer". And I do have a router table that I built years ago. It still has one of those big old 3hp PC routers in it (the "original" one) but it has not been used in many years. Come to think of it, I might as well pull that mongo router out of the table and put it back to work. But it's so big and heavy that it's awkward to use as a "hand held".

[Chip Lindley]

Brian, during 30+ years that you enjoy your woodworking interests, you will find the need for a router table AND a shaper. The two are not interchangeable, and there is a line that neither can obstensibly cross. A shaper is a router table on steroids! Large (and expensive) cutters can be swung for large profiles which could not be cut on a *3 hp* router. Router bits are not at their best run on a shaper. And, large shaper cutters cannot be run in a router!

As your interest in woodworking progresses, you will understand the need and purpose for both machines. Go for the router now! It's versitility abounds. Bits are inexpensive! Later when you discover raised panel door-making and a need for larger moulding profiles, the shaper's virtues will stand out plainly!

[Mike Heidrick]

David, thankyou. You are inspiring me to try out using router bits in my shaper. Thanks again. I appreciate yoru experience. Chip also has a great point - when acquiring tools you will find the need and a deal on both.

[Allan Froehlich]

I stumbled across this thread out of curiosity and proper utilization of the search button.

My Situation:
I already have a Rout-r-lift with my Bosch router in it. I was thinking about getting a more powerful router/router lift, but then contemplated on a small shaper.

The shaper would cost less and be a dedicated machine. I like the idea that it works at lower speeds and makes more torque.

So, can I really just put an adapter on the sharper shaft and install my 3 1/2 inch Freud bits on it and edge some panels!?!

The bit I want more than any other is one of those carbide insert bits with the rub collar. I love using patterns!!!

[Jim Kountz]

The answer to the OP is this ; You can run router bits in a shaper, but you can't run shaper cutters in a router. That makes it a simple choice, I think.

Nope wrong again:


http://grizzly.com/products/1-2-Shaper-Cutter-Arbor/G4820

You guys need to research these things. :-)

[Rod Sheridan]

I occasionally run router bits in my shaper.

Last weekend I helped a friend make two raised panel doors.

I didn't have a cope/stick cutter set in the profile he wanted so I borrowed a router bit set from my brother.

My friend made the rails and stiles using a coping sled, then power feeder set at 2.9 m/minute for the sticking profile.

My brother commented on the fit and finish of the cope and stick profiles, better than he obtains on his router table. It's probably due to lack of vibration and consistent pressure/feed speed.

To raise the panels, we used a shaper cutter and the power feeder. My friend wondered what the noise was all of a sudden.

A shaper sure is quiet spinning a little router bit!

So yes you can run router bits very sucessfully in a shaper, you just have to feed the material very slowly in comparison to a shaper cutter.

Regards, Rod.

[Allan Froehlich]

You just have to adjust the feed rate. The issue is not RPM, it's CPM (Cuts Per Minute). So there is nothing you can do on a router table that you cannot do on a shaper. But there are many things you can do on a shaper that you cannot do on a router table.

When I use my router table, I sometimes wish my router made more torque at low revs. I prefer wood shaving and not wood dust coming off of my cutter.

Shapers are much quieter too...right?

[Rick Fisher]

I have both.. Just bear in mind that a shaper is like a car.

The cheap part is buying the shaper...

A cheap router bit is $5.00

A cheap shaper bit is $50.00

I would not run a shaper without a feeder. I did it that way for a few years and decided that I was not a shaper guy.. I have the attention span of a fruit fly...

When I learned (here) about feeders .. I got another shaper (bigger) and a feeder (1hp) and love it.

I now have more money invested in cutters than the shaper and feeder together, and I never have the right cutter ..

[Rick Fisher]

Shapers are quieter but you should be wearing a full arsenal of hearing and eye protection when running either.

I cant stress it enough.. I wear a face shield, not just goggles, for both.