Saw Choice tenon/carcass

[Erwin Graween]

Hi All.
Happy new year and all the best to you !

I'm writing this topic, because Santa has brought me some financial budget to buy some tools. Yes even if it's the crisis :D

I think I'll go for 2 saws. A carcass saw and a tenon saw. But I hesitate between the different models.

First for the tenon saw. I'm interested in the western type, like the Lie-Nielsen tenon saw (or Adria, etc). But it exists in 2 sizes 12" and 14". . My problem is that the 12 has a cut depht of 3 and the 14 a depth of 3 and 5/8.
I do hesitate between the two depth and lenght. I'm afraid the 14 would be too big, and then difficult for me to manipulate. Some people says the bigger, the easier to user (Chris Shwartz), but I'm not convinced. But you can do bigger tenons so it could do more stuff than the smaller one. Also the 12 one, is only a little bigger than my dovetail saw (just under 2"), so would it be useful ? Also does the 10 tpi leave an acceptable surface ?
I don't really know which size is right. I do all kind of stuff, not specifically small furniture or only big ones.

Second for the carcass saw. I'm wondering a little like for the tenon saw and for the same reasons, if it is better to get like the carcass saw 11" long and 2 1/4 depth with 15 tpi or would it be a better choice to get the small tenon saw crosscut 13 tpi and 12" long with 3" depth cut. I think you don't need a really deep saw for crosscut. But a longer one could be better ? Also would the 13 tpi be enough to leave a fine results or is it better to get 15tpi ?

Finally two last thoughts. Theses saws are well rated in hardwoods, but are they working fine in soft woods ? Also does some one own the pax tenon saws ? The 1776 models look fine, but they don't precise the depth of cut on the web site. So I'dont know. However they're not avaliable in 14" length, but they cost less.

Please help me I'm kind of lost here and really don't know what to pick. Also, I tend to choose fewer tools but of good quality and do all with them.

Thanks a lot fo your help, especially since these question come up very often.
Graween.

[David Keller NC]

I have a lot of saws. The L-N backsaws currently in use in the shop are the 12" L-N carcass and tenon saws, the small carcass saw, and the dovetail saw. I have an antique 10" British carcass saw, a 14" British tenon saw (filed rip, of course), and a monster 24" long, 6" depth of cut backsaw that weighs in at about 5 pounds. In addition, I've a number of Disston rip and crosscut models (panel saws, not back saws) that vary from 17" long (diminutive for a panel saw) to 26" long.

So...Here's my impression on your decision. I find, after a dovetail saw, that the small carcass saws get used most, then the L-N 12" tenon saw. Any bigger job of cross-cutting isn't typically done at a bench hook, it's moved to a saw bench and is done with one of the cross-cut panel saws, so the L-N 12" cross-cut back saw doesn't get much use. In general, I rarely encounter the need for sawing a tenon that the L-N 12" rip backsaw has too shallow a depth of cut to handle. When I do, either the monster British antique gets used, or more often, a 17" Disston #12 filed 8 tpi rip.

One of the reasons is that when I have a big tenon to saw, it's typically going on something that is less than furniture grade, such as a workbench, saw bench, machine base, etc..., and the 8 tpi rip is more than clean enough for the task.

From the standpoint of softwood, I find the L-N standard filing works very, very well in southern yellow pine, eastern white pine, cypress, and poplar, all of which are relatively soft. It also works well in mahogany. Cherry, walnut and maple can be a little hard to start because the L-N has near zero rake angle (at least the saws I have), but I've gotten used to that in several years of working them. If you plan on working a lot of exotics that are very hard, you might choose a Wnezloff and ask him to file it with a bit of rake to make it easier to start, or choose the L-N with a progressive saw tooth filing.

[Robert Rozaieski]

The depth of the LN 12" tenon saw is not likely to be the saw's downfall rather the length will likely be the culprit. It's a rare day that I need to cut a tenon deeper than 2-3". However, tenons wider than 3" are common.

I have a 12" tenon saw with 14 PPI and I don't like it. I was sawing some 4" wide tenons last weekend and it was clogging constantly, binding in the cut and just really slow to saw the tenon cheek. The PPI isn't just important for the finish of the saw cut but it's more important for holding and clearing the swarf from the kerf. If the gullets are too small because of a high PPI, the gullets clog with sawdust faster than they can clear the kerf and dump the sawdust. This leads to binding in the cut, slow cutting and often times a saw that will not track straight. The LN's 10 PPI will be much better than my 14 PPI for cutting tenon cheeks. For small tenons like 2" or so my saw with 14 PPI works very well. As I get up around 3" wide, it starts to lose performance. Much wider than 3" and it just bogs down.

Again, most of the problems I have with MY tenon saw are due to the PPI, not the length, but there are times when I wish I had a longer saw as well. As your tenons get wider, your stroke with a shorter saw becomes shorter and when your stroke is shorter, some of the teeth may not clear the kerf to dump the swarf, resulting in clogging gullets and slower cutting. The answer here is less PPI or a longer saw. Less PPI means a rougher finish. A longer saw plate gives you a longer stroke which ensures the teeth exit the kerf.

If you work mostly with narrower tenons, a 12" saw will do you fine. However, if you often work with wider tenons, like over 3-4" wide, you may benefit by a little more length in the saw plate (like 14-16"). The extra length will help to give you a longer saw stroke which will aid in a faster, straighter and cleaner cut by letting more dust clear the deeper saw kerf.

Like most things, there is really no one saw that is best for every tenon. I'm planning to make a 16" tenon saw with a coarser pitch for my own use in cutting tenon cheeks as I feel it will suit my work better than my current 12" saw. If you do mostly furniture sized projects, I'd say go with the 14" LN tenon saw since the pitch of both the 12" and 14" are the same at 10 PPI. I think you will appreciate the extra 2" of length in the long run.

For a crosscut backsaw I use a 14" model similar in size to a tenon saw but filed crosscut. However, for most crosscutting joinery tasks (dovetail shoulders, tenon shoulders, etc.) the 11" carcass saw should work just fine.

[Joe Close]

You mentioned Schwarz's name, so maybe you've already read this:
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,Saws.aspx

There is a lot of good info to glean from this series of blogs.

I was in the same position you are in a few months back. I ended up with the following 3 saws:
LN Dovetail - filed rip. (which is standard for LN dovetail)
LN Large Tenon (14") - filed crosscut
LN Large Tenon (14") - filed rip, progressive pitch

LN does not list progressive pitch as a selectable saw on their website, but they do offer it. Just call them. I think I just had to add the request in the comments section of the order.

All that said, I'm new to this stuff, and have limited experience. But, in playing with the saw's, cutting tenons and dovetails, the saws work as advertised. They kerfs are straight, and the saws are easy on the eyes.

[Erwin Graween]

Thanks for the info.
Joe .... :o I read Chris blog almost every day. As well as this forum and some other for a long time now. Even if due to my beginner knowledge and my poor englishn i don't contribute very often (especially since there are so many guys here and there that know so much ;)).
Do you find that the crosscut 14" tenon saw does a nice job ? I mean compared to what could do a carcass saw at 15 tpi crosscut ?

David. thanks for you reply. About the progressive teeth. As I live in France and will do the filing myself I might stay with conventional teeth pattern. We don't have easy access here to saw doctor or wizards. I'm fine with coarse teeth on an old saw I have (kind of panel saw). I'll train myself. Sending it back and forth to usa or uk would be almost as expensive as buying a new saw .... :D So it's really worth giving it a try. You gave a sound advice on using a backless saw witth 8tpi rip. I only have one with about 5 tpi. Maybe will have to get one ...

Robert. Thanks I did not think about the lenght of saw would be a problem. But that's right. If it's really helpfull then I think i will cope with the extra height even if not often needed. Also the note about the gullet is helpfull.

Thanks. Let's see what other will says. I'm glad I asked the question because the answers will help me make the good choice (untill I discover I need other saws :) )

[lowell holmes]

I have both carcass saws and the dovetail saw. I find the saws do a fine cut. I had to file the crosscut carcass saw before it cut the way I wanted it to. It is 14tti.

I also have an old 14" Disston crosscut saw that is 12 tpi (?) and it does a faster cut, but the cut is not as smooth.

Swarz's article on using handsaw's has hepled me a lot. If you lift the saw on the back saw a bit, it haelps clear sawdust out of the kerf and speeds the process.

I also have a 19th century disston that I have resurrected that approaches the LN saws in performance.

I find that sawing technique affects all of these saws.

[Joe Close]

Do you find that the crosscut 14" tenon saw does a nice job ? I mean compared to what could do a carcass saw at 15 tpi crosscut ?


If feel that it cuts nicely, however, I don't have much to compare to. I'm sure ther are others on this site that have more diverse saw experience to answer that question.
I would say, don't get caught up in the names of the saws to define what the saw does, Tenon vs Carcass. To me, a "Tenon" saw filed crosscut works as a carcass saw. IMHO, In short, the tooth cut defines the saw's use, then the tooth set and tpi/ppi contributes to that use. Not the name.

Do you have MS Excel? I can send you a spreadsheet I put together showing alot of the saws I was interested in, and the details of each. It makes for a useful tool to compare the different saws.

[Alan DuBoff]

Lots of replies, but nobody really asked you what you'll be doing with the saws...hmmm...that would be key in helping you decide.

With that said, names are just that...names.

If you want 2 saws, get a rip and a crosscut. The carcass/sash/tenon can fit that bill.

In terms of depth, do you anticipate working timber that is larger than 3"???? Joinery is dependent on the size you work with, and most craftsman will typically work with 4/4, 8/4, and sometimes 12/4, but even so 12/4 will be able to be worked with a 3" saw.

IMO, having a rip saw is important to cut joinery, but so is a crosscut. A pair of saws, one rip and one crosscut will go a long way to cutting joinery.

I personally would not recommend a small dovetail saw as the first saw, I would recommend a slightly larger small carcass/sash/tenon saw filed rip, along with a small carcass/sash/tenon filed crosscut. That size of saw is much more practical and can be used for much more than a dovetail saw can, as well as being able to cut dovetails as well...my $0.02, but would like to hear what you plan to do with the saws, what type of work you want to do, and what saws you have already, if any. For me, it is not just about having a lot of saws, it's about having usable ones. Buy the saws that you need for the work you want to do, and don't just go out and start buying a bunch of saws. I would also stay away from progressive teeth if you plan to file yourself, and don't worry about rake and all those details, you'll only confuse yourself.

[Erwin Graween]

Hi All.
Thanks again for all the replies. Sorry did not have time to answer since Thursday. Work, family, :rolleyes:

Alan, I do al sort of things. Mostly mid sized projets, like bed night side tables, my daughter bed, some cabinet for the bathroom, chairs (only 1 for the moment). But I also do some bigger stuff like a "strand" (not sure you call it like this, but it closes and protects the windows at night, not common in usa,but 99.999999% common in europe).
I'm also willing to build some doors.
I don't doo too much small stuff like jewelry box or this kind of thing, mostly "Menuiserie" and some light "Ebenisterie" :)
I don't really understand the sizes of 4/4 8/4 or 12/4, are thess square stocks of 1x1" and then 2x1" and 3x1" ?. If this is the case then yes that's mostly the kind of sizes I would work. Most often stocks squares about 1.5" , 2x2" or 2x3. I think I'll merely do timber wider than 3" or 3.5" maximum (for building doors).
And I already have a dovetail saw (the Veritas one - gift).
Thanks for the infos.

[Mark Singer]

The saw. Size depends on the scale of the work and also your preferene. You need to try a few saws and see how your stroke and the saw work. I switch off because I have several good western saws. My longer tenons are filed rip and the shorter are mostly crosscut .the long saws allow a longer rather than choppy stroke. It is like a pool Q. the Japanese saws are good joinery saws especially in softer wood. I would try to get 3 saws , dovetail,tenon and carcass...try a demo somewhere if possible

[Erwin Graween]

Hi all.
thanks for all the answers.
Since I have a dovetail saw already. I finally ordered the LN carcass saw and the bigger tenon saw (14"). I hope they'll cross the ocean and arrive fine.
I'll let you know how I like them when I get them.

Living in France it is difficult to find people near my place or even shops where I could try these saw before buying them. So I'm giving it a try. I know they have good values on the second hand market if ever I was not pleased and need to sell them back, which I doubt.
I'm pretty sure they'll be fine, and I'll try them a least a 6-12 monthes to find out.

Thanks.

[Hank Knight]

[QUOTE=Erwin Graween;1016831]Hi All.
Thanks again for all the replies. Sorry did not have time to answer since Thursday. Work, family, :rolleyes:
I don't really understand the sizes of 4/4 8/4 or 12/4, are thess square stocks of 1x1" and then 2x1" and 3x1" ?. If this is the case then yes that's mostly the kind of sizes I would work. Most often stocks squares about 1.5" , 2x2" or 2x3. I think I'll merely do timber wider than 3" or 3.5" maximum (for building doors).

Erwin,

Here in the US, lumber is commonly described by it's rough-cut thickness, measured in 1/4 inch increments. A rough-cut 4/4 board is 1 inch thick and can be of any width. One can expect to lose anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 inch in thickness when the board is planed to it finished dimension. So a 4/4 board will finish at 3/4 inches to as much as 7/8 inches thick. Broadly speaking, a 4/4 rough cut board is 3/4 inches thick at it's finished dimension. It can be any width. A 4/4 X 6 board is commonly thought of as 3/4" thick by 6" wide.

The same goes for 8/4 (2" thick at it's rough dimension and approximately 1 3/4" thick at it's finished dimension), 12/4 (3" thick rough dimension and 2 3/4" thick finished), 16/4 - etc. etc.

I hope my explanation helps.

Hank

[Alan DuBoff]

Hank gave a good explanation of the way timber is measured, but to tie that back to what I had pointed out before, a piece of 12/4 material is approx. 2 3/4" thick in it's finished state. You can still cut that type stock with a 3" deep blade. There might be rare times where you might want to cut 4" stock, say a 4x4 (3 3/4" finished) but can deal with it. Chances are you might be doing a mortise/tenon joint with a 4x4, so that would work with a 3" saw in most cases.

Most cabinet and furniture work is done mostly with 4/4 and 8/4, but not all, just that most folks will use that...myself included.

Because you can only cut as deep as the blade depth is, one needs a saw that will handle the stock you want to work. This is why I said to forget about the names, think about the size. Dovetail, tenon, carcass, sash, it's all the same at the end of the day, it's the size of the saw that matters most. Hope that makes sense.

A dovetail is a kinda specialty saw, typically it will not have the depth of blade that a carcass/tenon/sash will. This is why I suggested you consider a pair of saws with a deeper blade, it is more practical for more work in general. That said, most folks will want a dovetail saw in their quiver (of saws). I just wouldn't put one at the top of the list, unless you really plan to focus on dovetails. Still, you can cut dovetails with a larger saw with no problem.

[Erwin Graween]

Thanks for the infos on the sizes of wood. I got it.
In France it's about the same idea, but expressed in metrics millimeters.

Alan yes I was thinking more in terms of sizes than names. Because names don't mean too much.
I think the 14"x 3 5/8 rip 10 ppi will do the trick for most jobs I'm doing. So will the name carcass saw with 11" and 2 1/4 crosscut 14 ppi.

The thing is that for tenons for the rip operation cutting (cheeks if I translate fine) as you often want to get the longest tenon wide blades are nice.

Thanks.
Now I hope USPS doesn't loose my pack :p

[Alan DuBoff]

Erwin,

Yep, those will work fine for most work. Yes, you will use a rip saw for cutting the cheeks, but will need the crosscut for the shoulders. You can get away with cutting the shoulders with a rip, but it will tear the grain and leave it all fluffy. In that case you would need to clean it up with a shoulder plane most likely. Maybe so anyway, but...I like to aim for a fit with the saw if possible.

I am planning out the saws I want to build for myself. I currently have a small joiners saw, rip, and I just stamped and cleaned a blade that will be the same saw in crosscut. These are about 13" long with a 2" plate, so about 1 3/4" of usable blade, approx.

I have a 36" section of 4" plate, might make a pair of 18" tenon saws.

I also have a pair of 12" plates that are 3" deep. That will be a pair of carcass saws. Between those 6 jaws I should be able to cut most all joinery, from dovetails up to large tenons.

In general as I pointed out before, if you have a rip and a crosscut, you can cut most joinery, but having the various sizes is helpful for the different stock one works.

Now I hope USPS doesn't loose my pack :p
Well, one good thing is they don't loose stuff very often, but sometimes it's delayed...:rolleyes: What type of saws did you order?

[Erwin Graween]

Alan just got them yesterday !
It went quite fast. Arrived well packed. But I was not lucky and had to pay for custom fees (5.5%) as well a French VAT taxes (19.6% in our country !:eek:). But well at least I have two nice saws !
I got both LN saws the carcass crosscut one, and the 14" rip tenon saw. They look great. I'll try them this weekend as I won't have time before and also only have natural light in my small workshop for the moment.
I could burn candles though to feel really like woodworkers of the past centuries, but this is dangerous (use to say that to my wife to tease her :D)

I'm also highly interested in making myself saws. I'm planning on making 2 small panel saw, one rip cut and an other one crosscut. Will see how it goes. My second hand tool projets is to make some wooden molding planes. I have Wheelan book and plan to get the Clarks&Williams videos. For the moment I'm drying some beech for them. Will start with hollow and round.
But this is another subject. My real problem for this one is making the blade.

Thanks.

[Alan DuBoff]

I got both LN saws the carcass crosscut one, and the 14" rip tenon saw. They look great. I'll try them this weekend as I won't have time before and also only have natural light in my small workshop for the moment.
LN makes great saws. It is those designs that have changed the way modern saws are made by most makers, but not all. Those are great tools. The tenon saw plate is fairly thick, at .032", but it's a solid saw.

I'm also highly interested in making myself saws. I'm planning on making 2 small panel saw, one rip cut and an other one crosscut. Will see how it goes. My second hand tool projets is to make some wooden molding planes. I have Wheelan book and plan to get the Clarks&Williams videos. For the moment I'm drying some beech for them. Will start with hollow and round.
But this is another subject. My real problem for this one is making the blade.
Making tools is fun. I especially like making saws, but there are some fine ones available, the LNs, Wenzloffs, Adrias, Medallian, Eccentric, Veritas, there's a lot of great saws available these days.