Glazing vs Toning for Cherry Kitchen Cabinets?

[Roger Jensen]

Hi All,

Looking for some advice on finishing some cherry kitchen cabinets (faceframe with inset doors).

Tons of methods out there, but I have narrowed it down to two:

1. (from Jeff Jewitt): Honey Amber stain, followed by shellac wash coat, followed by gel stain, then clear top coats (perhaps a shellac washcoat between gel stain and top coat)

-or-

2. Honey Amber stain, followed by shellac wash coat, followed by sprayed toner (TransTint dye and Target Ultima), followed by clear topcoats.

The first method would be easier for a small area, but I'm wondering if the larger volume of work justifies learning to spray a toner (I have only spayed paint with my HVLP till now). There appears more "art" to the toner spray, whereas the gel stain would be more "mechanical" if that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any tips or recommendations!

Roger

[Casey Gooding]

How about none of the above :)
All of that finish is just going to obscure the beautiful life in cherry. My favorite is Boiled Linseed Oil followed by Shellac then Lacquer.
This will age beautifully with time to a color that would be completely hidden by stains and toners.

[Jay Brewer]

I have to agree with Casey. I spend alot of time glazing and toning other woods to look like Cherry. If you have never sprayed toners before,dont start on a project you want to keep. It takes alot of pratice mixing the right amount of dyes and spraying. There is an art to it.

The only time I would tone Cherry would be to blend in the sapwood. JMO

[Roger Jensen]

Casey and Jay,

Thanks for your advice. I'm basing this on things I have read, and the common complaint about BLO on Cherry is that it accentuates the blotchiness. Do you not find this to be true, or do you consider the blotchiness an attractive feature of cherry?

Roger

[Joe Chritz]

BLO enhances the grain. Blotch is caused by uneven absorbtion, usually do to grain so it could. I don't notice much without some pigment present, as in stain.

To answer your question I would always go for stain over toner. By the nature toner will cover some of the features since it is simply a "toned" topcoat. Toners are often used in commercial settings to even out colors from board to board. Toners are faster and allow a lot of fudge factor in the overall color.

For my opinion... I would go with the no stain crowd. Whatever color the cherry turns out now isn't likely to be the same in a couple years anyway. Since you can't fight it you may as well embrace it.

Joe

[Scott Holmes]

Chaulk up another vote for the BLO and the varnish or clear coat of your choice.

Toning cherry to match now, will really show up later when the cherry darkens.

Trying to guess the toner color now for a future match is really tough.

Let the wood "suntan" for awhile after you apply the BLO.

One man's blotchiness is another man's character.

[Jeff Wright]

Do you apply the BLO full strength, or do you cut it with mineral spirits (and by how much, if so)?

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, I use the BLO full strength, but sometimes warm it to 135º in a water bath as Thos Moser does. I never use coloration on cherry...just BLO, shellac and whatever top coat I choose to use; generally Target USL but sometimes their Hybrivar.

BTW, "botch" is just the figure of the wood absorbing the oil at different rates. It doesn't bother me in the least.

[Rob Cunningham]

I'll cast another vote for BLO, de-waxed shellac, and a top coat. Let mother nature do her thing with cherry.

[Larry Fox]

Another vote for no stain / toner and letting nature take it's course. That said, I don't use BLO on cherry much because I am not a fan at all of the blotching.

I built a vanity for my sister-in-law who insisted (and I mean insisted) that it be cherry and start out that deep maroon color that you typically see in stores. I told her (several times) that it would darken with age and to not do it. She went back to insisting.

I disliked it from the moment I sprayed on the first toner coat and every time I go over their house I see it and it gets closer to black every time I see it. She likes it though. :-/

[Jeff Wright]

Jeff, I use the BLO full strength, but sometimes warm it to 135º in a water bath as Thos Moser does. I never use coloration on cherry...just BLO, shellac and whatever top coat I choose to use; generally Target USL but sometimes their Hybrivar.

BTW, "botch" is just the figure of the wood absorbing the oil at different rates. It doesn't bother me in the least.

Thanks Jim.

1] What shellac do you use (dewaxed?, flakes vs Sealcoat or a premixed?, color such as burnt/button/etc.?)?
2] How long do you allow the BLO to dry?
3] What cut shellac do you use?
4] How do you apply the shellac (brush, pad, spray)?

[Roger Jensen]

Thanks for everyone's input. Finishing is a mystery to me, but I want to learn as much as I can before I trash my cabinets.

A few additional questions:

Larry - you said you don't use BLO on Cherry due to the blotching. What do you use instead? Just topcoats?

I have seen a number of posts on WoodWeb about using Waterlox instead of BLO. Other than the curing time differences, why use one over the other?

This may be a silly question, but would you ever put on a wash coat of 1 lb shellac before the BLO to reduce blotching? Would this reduce the grain enhancing effect of the BLO?

If I want to see how dark the cherry will eventually get, how long do I need to leave it in the sun after I have finished my test piece? It would be good to know how dark it will get. If it gets too dark I guess I could follow the advice on this board and use alder and stain it to the color we want.

Thanks again for your help.

Roger

[Jim Becker]

1] What shellac do you use (dewaxed?, flakes vs Sealcoat or a premixed?, color such as burnt/button/etc.?)?
Mostly SealCoat for convenience. But I also mix from flakes if I want something darker, etc. I only use de-waxed shellac.



2] How long do you allow the BLO to dry?Anywhere between an hour and several days...'depends upon if I'm in a hurry. Interestingly, with a very light application of the oil, you can safely coat with the shellac the same day. (reference Jeff Jewitt's FW article a year or two ago) I've done "complete finishing" in one day using that method for face frames for built-ins and some other things with great success.



3] What cut shellac do you use?2lb...which is what comes out of the SealCoat can.


4] How do you apply the shellac (brush, pad, spray)?Brush or spray, depending on the size of the job. Sometimes, I'll just use the spray bombs from Zinsser for convenience if it's a small job that I don't want to brush. I keep some dedicated brushes for that purpose and use my HVLP conversion gun for spraying larger projects, etc. I prefer spraying as it's faster to re-coat. Personal preference. But I've also developed comfort with brushing shellac...which is very different than brushing varnishes.

[Larry Fox]

This link is pretty helpful for info on finishing cherry.

http://www.finishwiz.com/cherry.htm

I typically go with a coat of blonde shellac to get the party started. If I do use BLO, it is an extremely light application. Just my taste though

[Dave Novak]

I just finished a chest of drawers made from very figured cherry. I cut the BLO about 50%, and it did a magnificent job of popping that figure with little or no blotching. I sprayed Amber de-waxed shellac from flakes after that. A little Behlens Rock Hard on the top surface only, and it turned out beautiful. I don't have a ton of experience with shellac, but I'd be tempted to quit after the BLO and Shellac on Kitchen cabinets. My research indicates it would be adequate protection.

[Casey Gooding]

Generally, I do the same as Jim. I do, however, like to sit the project out in the sun for an afternoon or two, if weather and time permit. This allows the cherry to darken a bit and gives it a nice "tan". I use my BLO full strength.

[Scott Holmes]

You will see dramatic change within an 8 hour "tanning" session. Less after that, but still darkening for a couple of days...

I'm in Houston; your "sun" may vary. (every board is different, try to get all your lumber from the same tree)

Best proof of darkening; use a piece of black electrical tape to cover a small section on a scrap piece.

[Roger Jensen]

Does anyone do a shellac washcoat before the BLO? A recent issue of FWW indicated this could reduce blotching, even with oils.

I'm in the process of comparing Waterlox and BLO, both with and without a shellac washcoat.

At the rate I'm going I'll use more cherry on test pieces than the actual cabinet...

[Jim Becker]

Roger, since you want the oil to soak in, it would seem counter productive to seal the wood with a wash coat of shellac or any other sealer. There's no point on using the oil otherwise...go right to the clear coats.

Waterlox is not oil. It's a varnish. BLO is pure oil. So the comparison is between two entirely different product types.

[Jesse Cloud]

There's an interesting article in the current issue of Popular Woodworking. Bob Flexner writes "Cherry Blotches - Get Over It". He points out that any finish, even shellac, will blotch somewhat.

He says a wash coat of thinned shellac or lacquer will reduce blotching, but its still there, and there's no way to know how your particular batch of cherry is going to blotch without testing your finish on some scrap.

He does point out, however, that as cherry darkens with age, the difference in darkness between the blotches and the rest lessens a lot.

For what its worth, unless the piece is going to take a lot of wear and tear, I just use shellac and wax for a natural look.