Workbench Top Questions with pics

[Carlos Cabrera]

I was hoping you guys could give me an idea as how to proceed. I built my workbench from quartersawn white oak but the top I initially made by stacking some MDF and covered it with a sheet of 1/4 oak plywood. I built the bench a few years ago and i am wanting now to replace the top with solid Walnut.

My dilemma is that I have 3 boards on top of the bench right now and they of course are bowed and have some twist and basically not flat. I have not joined them yet all i did was cut them to a 7 foot length, plane them and lay them flat on the bench. I calculate that there is about a 1/4" bow along the length of the boards. If you look in the pictures i have clamped them down to the workbench with 2 cowls.

I need some suggestions as to what to do next ?? Obviously I would like to have a flat workbench top so do I bolt the boards down onto the existing workbench top ? Do I try to join the 3 boards together and flatten the top with hand planes and remove the old workbench top ?? Please any help would be appreciated.

Thanks, Carlos

[Jim Koepke]

My thoughts would be to build something else out of the walnut and find a different wood for the top.

I think laminating a lot of thin strips (1X3 or 2X3) would be less likely to cause humidity changes than three big hunks joined together.

jim

[Steve Pirrelli]

I was thinking the same. Better of with harder and cheaper top like Ash. Or rip those boards into thinner strips and laminate.

[whit richardson]

I'd vote for the same answer ... Ash would be a good alternative and cheaper than maple.

[Jim Becker]

Count me in with the other comments. You'll not likely be happy with a bench top made that way over time and it will need more maintenance to keep it flat. Narrow, vertical laminations tend to be the way folks build these things and for good reason. If you need to do this project "now" and don't have the funds for additional hardwood, do a multi-layer bench top by laminating 3 3/4" MDF pieces (inserting hardwood where vices mount), edge it with hardwood 1/4" proud and slip in a 1/4" hard board replaceable topper. It will be flat, heavy & dense, inexpensive and get you through a lot of work until you can do a more traditional benchtop. I do agree that ash is a very nice alternative hardwood, as is "soft" maple. (which is not soft at all...)

[David Keller NC]

Carlos - I too, think you should choose a different wood and a different orientation for your workbench top, but for a slightly different reason. I took a close look at the grain on those walnut boards. While they are quite nice from the standpoint of interesting grain, they're a nightmare from the standpoint of a workbench top that you want to keep flat.

The grain is all over the place in those boards, from flat-sawn to quartersawn, and that means that they will likely never stop twisting and bowing. That won't matter if you use them as a panel captured in a frame on the side of a piece of furniture, but a workbench top has no such provisions. If you bolt them down to try to keep them flat, they will likely crack.

Given that you're in Texas, I would suggest oak (red) for an inexpensive workbench top material that will be durable, strong, and stable. You should be able to purchase straight-grain oak boards 2" thick from a local hardwood supplier for about $2 a b.f., which you can them rip into 3" wide strips that will be quarter-sawn when stood on their edges and their faces glued together to make a laminated top. I suspect maple and (particularly) ash will be very pricey in Texas because they don't grow there in quantity. By the way - you may already know this, but the big-box home improvement stores are the wrong place to buy hardwood lumber - you'll pay a mint for it.

[Carlos Cabrera]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply and help me !! If you look at my workbench it is already complete with a top and a vise I just layed out the walnut boards on top of the workbench to show what i wanted to do.

The existing workbench top is made with MDF laminations and a 1/4 plywood top it has been that way for years and I want to change it to a solid wood top which has been my plan since the start but I left it for last since it seems to be a lot of work.

I will take your advice and use the Walnut boards for something else but now my question is do I use the southern yellow pine that is easily accessible at my local home depot or should I use ash which I can get at my local lumber yard ?

Thanks again, Carlos

[Randy Klein]

It's hard to see in the pics, but the board on the right looks it contains the pith. You're going to want to rip that out before you do anything.

[Ben Davis]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply and help me !! If you look at my workbench it is already complete with a top and a vise I just layed out the walnut boards on top of the workbench to show what i wanted to do.

The existing workbench top is made with MDF laminations and a 1/4 plywood top it has been that way for years and I want to change it to a solid wood top which has been my plan since the start but I left it for last since it seems to be a lot of work.

I will take your advice and use the Walnut boards for something else but now my question is do I use the southern yellow pine that is easily accessible at my local home depot or should I use ash which I can get at my local lumber yard ?

Thanks again, Carlos
Carlos,

You'll be just fine with the SYP from the local borg. Your only real investment in that top will be the time it takes to get clear and straight boards. Look for the 2x12's at 12' and 16' lengths to get the clearest material. Don't go for 2x4's as there is too much twist and wind.

A second thing to keep in mind is actually quite obvious, but still needs to be said. You do not need to purchase all of the needed wood on the same day or even at the same store. Take plenty of time (and maybe a helper!) to go through the bunks of SYP to get the good stuff. Often times the staff will pull down and open a second bunk for you if you ask. However, sometimes they won't do so if all of the lower bunks are filled. You might need to go do a different store or their competator to get those last 2 or 3 boards!

I would plan on making a 4" thick top and purchase the wood accordingly. That means you can get 2 8' laminates from each 2x12. If you cut the desired thickness of the workbench top down, you can squeeze 3 laminates from each 2x12.

I found that going for the 4" thick top was actually a benefit when selecting the wood, though at first I though I would be wasting too much of the stock. With such a large margin for waste, I can select the clearest portions of the board for the laminates and waste the outer 2-3" of the board. It can take a little creativity, but it's easily doable.

Also make certain that you have a nice sharp blade as the pine sap really can gum things up. No thin-cerf blades here! PM me with any other questions.

[Johnny Kleso]

You can rip the walnut into strips and lam it so the side grain is your work surface..

You can add some other wood in with it like ash..

You dont need your boards dead flat to lam. them together so the 1/4" bow would not be an issue..

[John Schreiber]

Ben's advise above is right on the money.

The only suggestion I could add is that you can also cut out the 2x12s with a circular saw to get as much out of the boards as possible. I started out using a guide, but with practice, I was able to cut smooth and straight following a chalk line.

Also, be sure to pick up extra SYP because some pieces will have unexpected problems.

[David Keller NC]

Carlos - SYP is a fine wood for a workbench top, depending on how you view the trade-off between hardness and ease-of-flattening. SYP, while very strong, is not very hard, so it will dent easily from hammer strikes, setting down a metal plane on its corner, etc... Some find this to be undesirable, so they use harder materials like maple, ash, and oak. But these materials are also more work with a handplane when it comes time to flatten the bench.

Another consideration is what SYP costs in your neck of the woods. In some areas of the country, it can be up to $6 a b.f. (Pacific Northwest). Here in NC, it's dirt cheap - about $1.50 a b.f. I would suggest doing a comparison of the costs of ash, maple, oak, SYP, beech, etc... in your area, and select one that costs less than $3 a b.f. but has good properties of strength and hardness.

Just my personal opinion, but I went with maple for my newest bench's construction. It was reasonably cheap here in NC, and I don't like the work to clean all the sap out of my power planer, jointer, table saw, dust collector and hand planes when working with SYP. I reserve SYP for saw benches, utility shelves and the like in the workshop.

[Carlos Cabrera]

You guys are just great !! It sounds like I need to head on down to my local lumber yard and get me some ash or maple whatever is cheaper. I also like Johnny Kleso's idea to mix in the walnut.

Of course this leads into other opportunities like installing one of those wagon vises. Thanks again for all your help !!!!!

[Randy Klein]

I built my Roubo-ish bench with SYP and discussed some of it here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=84739). I bought 14'-2x12's for my 10' long x 4" thick bench. The extra 4' in length allowed for some end checks, seemed to provide clearer boards, and gave me an opportunity to get the 2 best 10'x4" section out of each board. However, I ended up finding many uses for the 'waste', like for the shelf, so it wasn't all that wasteful.

I also bought #1 grade lumber vs the #2 that was at HD and Lowes. It cost a few more dollars bought was well worth it.

Even when you account for all the waste and better grade lumber I paid for, it still came out to about $2/bd-ft.

[James G. Jones]

Carlos,

I am just up the road from you in Allen. I will be looking to start a bench project later this year, once I knock out all the honey-do projects. Please keep us informed as to your progress. Speaking just for myself, I would love to hear what you use and where you get it. And since we're so close, if you ever need anything, just holler.http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

James

[Bill Gillean]

Doesn't the Nicholson style bench have two boards laying flat, not side to side like the Roubo style?

Do those have trouble staying flattened?

From reading Chris Schwarz, I thought a lot of the reason for putting the boards end to end was so you could use a 6 inch jointer and lunchbox planer but if you are using hand tools do you care?

I'm a beginner, why not take two of those 2x12 boards and lay them side by side Nicholson style but over a "substrate" of stable plywood for mass like a Roubo? Wouldn't gluing them to stable plywood help keep them flat as well?

It seems like a lot less gluing and if you don't have to fit a 6 inch jointer and lunchbox planer I'm not sure what you lose.

I'm interested in what people think. Thanks.

[Randy Klein]

I'm a beginner, why not take two of those 2x12 boards and lay them side by side Nicholson style but over a "substrate" of stable plywood for mass like a Roubo? Wouldn't gluing them to stable plywood help keep them flat as well?

Gluing solid wood to plywood is a bad idea unless the solid wood is very thin such as when veneering. Otherwise the solid wood will still move, but the plywood won't, so something's going to give.

[Mike Wilkins]

What you really need to do is send those boards to me for some furniture projects. I promise to make good use of them.
OK now to the bench top. The use of flat-laid boards like this will gaurantee that one or more will bow or warp at some time. The standard method for making a bench top is to cut strips to the thickness you want, and face glue to whatever width you want. There is more stability in the glue-up this way, and makes for a super-sturdy top.
There are several books on the subject. The Taunton Workbench book by Lon Schleining and the other one by Chris Swartz are 2 very excellent sources on everything for the bench.
Good luck and watch those fingers.

[Carlos Cabrera]

I will take everyone's advice and cut up and laminate the boards together. I am thinking about laminating the walnut and maybe some ash or maple for the color contrast. All I have to do is find time to make it to the lumber yard and pick up the ash or maple. The bottom of my existing bench is bomb proof, it is made out of quartersawn white oak and it weighs a ton. I want to have a decent bench top to go with the bottom.

Thanks again for everyone's input !! :) :)

Carlos

[Carlos Cabrera]

So i went to my local lumberyard today and they were closed so i thought i would check out another lumberyard nearby to see if i could find some wood.

Look what i found they had this 8 foot x 2 foot x 2.5 thick ash panel that was already laminated and flat. Needless to say i took it home with me and all i have to do now is provide a border probably out of that walnut.

The bench bottom is 5 foot long do you think i should leave the length of the bench at 8 foot or should i cut it back to 7 foot ? I bought one of those 10.5 inch wide vise's from woodcraft which i want to install as a front vise.

Suggestions are very welcome.

Thanks, Carlos

[steve swantee]

Pretty lucky find Carlos, beautiful top without all the work-best of both worlds!! Myself, I would probably cut it back a foot or so and maybe cut tenons on the ends for breadboard end caps. Round dog holes would probably be the ticket here since it is already glued up, but square holes would not be impossible if that was your preference. Good luck, whichever way you go

Steve

[Carlos Cabrera]

Here are some pictures of where I am with my workbench top now. I am not finished but I thought I would run these pictures past you guys for any suggestions about the shoulder vise and anything else really.

Should I round over the edges on the shoulder vise chop ? There is some play when the vise is operated is this normal ? It seems to hold the wood well but I am not sure if everything is correct since I have only seen shoulder vises in pictures and video.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

Carlos

[David Christopher]

WOW, that is one nice bench....I think you done a great job

[Phillip Pattee]

Wow, looks great. Those are some serious vises. You've sure got some lumber holding power. How about some more pics of the other end?

[James G. Jones]

+1 on the Wow. That is an awesome looking bench Carlos. You've given me a bad case of bench envy! I love the contrast between the ash and walnut.

James

[John Keeton]

Carlos, great looking bench. That ash and walnut are striking together - very good application. Are you going to put on a finish of some sort? I would use a couple coats of Danish oil just to bring out the color.

On the vice, it appears that you are getting a good bit of flex in the walnut. But, I am not a vice expert (or even novice for that matter:))

[Robert Rozaieski]

Doesn't the Nicholson style bench have two boards laying flat, not side to side like the Roubo style?

Do those have trouble staying flattened?

From reading Chris Schwarz, I thought a lot of the reason for putting the boards end to end was so you could use a 6 inch jointer and lunchbox planer but if you are using hand tools do you care?

I'm a beginner, why not take two of those 2x12 boards and lay them side by side Nicholson style but over a "substrate" of stable plywood for mass like a Roubo? Wouldn't gluing them to stable plywood help keep them flat as well?

It seems like a lot less gluing and if you don't have to fit a 6 inch jointer and lunchbox planer I'm not sure what you lose.

I'm interested in what people think. Thanks.

Yes, that is how the Nicholson bench was built and how the original Ruobo bench was built and how every other bench was built in the 18th and 19th centuries. Laminating a bench top is a contemporary solution to not having wide thick stock available. It is slightly more stable than an edge glued Nicholson type in that the seasonal movement will be restricted to the thickness of the bench rather than across the top but I say who cares? If my bench top gets wider in the summer and narrower in the winter, who cares? As long as you don't try to restrict the movement the cupping shouldn't happen or should be minimal at worst.

No matter if you edge glue or laminate, the top will eventually go out of flat and need to be flattened again. There is no avoiding it. I have laminated two bench tops already by hand (once with some aid from power) and I'll never do it again. It's not worth it in my opinion. If I ever make another bench top it will be in the Nicholson style with 2 wide 2" thick planks for the top.

So to answer your question. Yes, 2 12" wide 2" thick boards glued edge to edge would make a perfectly fine bench top for a Nicholson style bench and would be much easier to construct without any power tools than a laminated top. If you want a Ruobo style, edge glue several 3-4" thick boards. If you don't have any power, I don't recommend laminating. I've done it without power and I know there are a few other who've done it without power but in my experience it's not worth the effort to laminate without power.

As far as gluing to another substrate goes, you don't want to do it. We're not talking about a veneer here. That substrate, no matter what it is, is not going to prevent a 2" thick top from moving, whether it's edge glued or laminated. Embrace the movement. Don't try to prevent it because you can't. Instead, plan for it and you won't have any problems.;)

[David Keller NC]

"Should I round over the edges on the shoulder vise chop ? There is some play when the vise is operated is this normal ? It seems to hold the wood well but I am not sure if everything is correct since I have only seen shoulder vises in pictures and video."

I wouldn't worry about rounding the edges of the vise chop - that's principally done to keep from banging one's hadns on it, and that's tough to do in a shoulder vise anyway.

A couple of other thoughts - I would not have put a twin screw right next to your shoulder vise (or anywhere else on the front of the bench, for that matter). The reason is that it may make it difficult to work on the long edge of a wider board. As it is, a 6" wide board should be OK as the bottom edge will rest on the vise screws in the twin-screw, with the front secured in the shoulder vise. However, anything wider than that, and the top edge that you need to plane will be very high up off of the floor, and that's extremely tiring, not to mention more difficult to do accurately.

I would suggest taking the twins screw off - use it for another, higher "joinery" bench when you get around to it.

From the standpoint of play, you absolutely must have some play in a shoulder vise. Because it's a single pressure point, just about anything you put into it unless precisely centered will rack the screw somewhat. If everything's high and tight, more than likely you will break off one of the smaller screws attaching the vise screw to the chop. That would be the best case. The worst case is breaking the cast collar mounted to the chop.

You may want to consider a thicker chop on the shoulder vise as well - it'll be a rare day when you want to clamp anything over 4", and even rarer when you'll want to clamp anything over 6", so you've some room to bring your chop up to about 2-1/2" thick. That will take out a lot of the flex of the chop and will make the vise's holding power stronger.

Finally - by all means put leather on the inside of the vise chop and the front of the bench. It drastically improves your ability to make the work stay still, and will cushion the piece a bit if you're using a soft secondary wood like Eastern White Pine. I would recommend using a thin leather for this (not "belt" leather). If you've got a local Tandy Leather store, they often have a scrap bin where you can get enough leather to do the job for a couple of dollars.

My suggestion for how to do this is to get a can of #77 3M spray adhesive (Home Depot has it), spray the back of the piece of leather (lightly - it doesn't take much), stick the leather both to the inside of the jaw and another piece to the front of the bench, then close the vise. Wait about 2 hours, then return and with the vise still closed, trim the excess leather off. This is a whole lot easier than trying to cut the leather pieces to fit before you glue them down. And, by the way - the shiny, finished side of the leather gets glued to the wood (don't ask how I know that - I made a lot of mistakes that day. :rolleyes:)

[Carlos Cabrera]

First of all you I want to say Thank you for all your comments !! I wanted to make the bench as friendly as possible to cut dovetails the idea of the 2 front single screws is that I could fit a very wide board and cut the dovetails but if the vise got in the way I could just remove the whole thing out of the way.

David, I really appreciate all your suggestions, I have learned a lot just by reading your posts !!

I still have some work to do before I apply the finish to the bench top, for example I have attached the Jorgenson end vise but I have not attached the walnut skirt on that end of the bench yet and I have not attached the walnut skirt on the back of the bench either.

I am waiting for some 1/8 thick Tan vegetable leather that I ordered on fleabay to stick to all the vise faces, I will try this first and if I find it to be too thick I will replace it. The chop on ths shoulder vise is currently almost 2 inches thick so I will see if I can make it a little thicker as David suggested.

I also want to get some hold downs for the bench can anyone suggest a place to get them ? I saw the one Lee Valley sells for over 70 dollars which is a little too much for me :-) I will post some more pictures as I move forward with this project.

Thanks again,
Carlos

[Dewey Torres]

http://www.rockler.com/CategoryView.cfm?Cat_ID=1540&cookietest=1

[george wilson]

Yellow pine can be problematic to plane without a lot of tear out. I suggest the maple top.

[Matthew Dunne]

Another holdfast option
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=3832bbed370e29b86686baa1c8 ad8a68&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HOLDFAST.XX&Category_Code=TL

"Holdfasts that really work...The masterminds at Tools for Working Wood have patented a process for making a holdfast that works extraordinarily well for an equally extraordinary price - Buy a pair. It will change your workholding for the better - instantly. (5 out of 5 stars)."- Popular Woodworking

Finally! A holdfast which works and is priced reasonably." - Frank Klausz

[David Keller NC]

"I also want to get some hold downs for the bench can anyone suggest a place to get them ? I saw the one Lee Valley sells for over 70 dollars which is a little too much for me :-) I will post some more pictures as I move forward with this project."

Carlos - do not buy the very inexpensive cast-iron holdfasts. They're certainly cheap, and in this case you'll get what you pay for. They break - often - and don't hold anywhere near as well as a forged cold-rolled holdfast. The lee valley hold-down, while a cool design that has its place in certain applications, is not what you want as your primary holdfast either. A real holdfast will clamp down on a piece of stock with one whack of a mallet, no screwing/unscrewing required.

The best of these are available from the Galena Village blacksmith in Alaska (Phil Koontz). The last time I ordered some, they were $115 for a pair, including shipping to anywhere in the lower 48 by Priority Mail. They are hand-forged, and will never break - they will long outlive all of us.

The Grammercy models aren't quite as good in design and holding power, but they are far cheaper, and are made of mild steel, so they also will not break. I found that the shaft required roughing up with sandpaper to really hold well, and because the bend is somewhat shallow, they didn't work too well in anything over 1-1/2" stock.

Finally, you might try looking for a local blacksmith - there's a lot of guys doing this sort of work all around the country, and forging a holdfast is relatively simple from a bar of cold-rolled steel. One advantage this may have is that you can easily have the blacksmith adjust the angles to hold optimally in your bench.

Regarding the leather, 1/8" thick should be OK, though I wound up with 1/16" upholstery leather (because that's what was in the scrap bin). I had tried the 1/4" veg-tanned "belt leather" on a previous bench, and it was too thick - it made the hold kind of sloppy unless the vise was cinched down really tightly.

[Carlos Cabrera]

I just ordered these cool holdfasts from Phil Koontz at Galena Village blacksmith in Alaska , I spoke with him on the phone and he could not be more helpful. Thank you David for recommending him to me. Here is a picture of the holdfasts he is selling. Now all I have to do is figure out where I am going to make all the holes in the bench ????

Thanks again,
Carlos

[David Keller NC]

Carlos - i don't think you will regret buying those. I went through several crappy pairs trying to foolishly save money, which wound up costing me a lot more in the end.

Regarding holes - I've a couple of recommendations here. Take the time to build a jig - I can't emphasize this enough. It's critical for the use of bench dogs that you get the holes close to perpendicular to the bench top. Some like to tilt the dog holes 2 degrees in the direction of the vice, and while that sounds nice in theory, I've never been able to get that accurate with a brace and bit (or an electric drill).

A simple jig is a block of maple or other hard wood at least 1-1/2" thick, with a 3/4" dowel about 2" long set into the block about 4" away from a precisely drilled 3/4" hole (do it on a drill press, or be really fussy about lining up your hand drill or brace simultaneously with 2 squares). This layout will give you holes 4" on center - just adjust the distance between the dowel and hole for a different spacing. Strike a line down the bench where you want your line of holes to go, satisfy yourself that it's nice and square, then clamp the jig to the bench over the first mark and drill the hole out with a 3/4" ship auger bit (most brad-points and forstner bits don't have enough reach to go through the jig and the bench, though you could use a forster with an extension). Then flip the jig over and put the dowel in the first hole in the bench, and "tada!" your next hole is right in front of you on your jig. Naturally, you want a centerline drawn on your jig to line up with the line on the bench, but this is a really easy way to go straight down the bench with an electric drill or hand brace without having to measure or wind up with each holes axis a little off because you didn't have the guide block.

One final caution - because your's truly screwed it up - check to see that your drill locations will not interfere with the vise screws and mounts - cast iron vice parts win over HSS brad points every time (with a sickening "snap", I might add).

[Alan DuBoff]

I just ordered these cool holdfasts from Phil Koontz at Galena Village blacksmith in Alaska , I spoke with him on the phone and he could not be more helpful. Thank you David for recommending him to me. Here is a picture of the holdfasts he is selling. Now all I have to do is figure out where I am going to make all the holes in the bench ????
They are the best, IMO, but also some of the most expensive.

Phil has become a pretty good friend over the years, online, and we often exchange email with each other.

I have a pair that Phil made for me with bass clefs on them, ironically before I started to use the bass clef as my touchmark for my blacksmith work. I could make my own holdfasts these days (have actually made a few), but admire the ones that Phil made for me, as I do and cherish most hand crafted tools that friends have made for me.

Let us know how you like them when you get them!

[David Keller NC]

BTW - There's another source for traditionally made holdfasts - Colonial Williamsburg sells them out of their Prentis store. They're more expensive than Phil's work, at least when CW finally got back to me by e-mail.

The way I look at it, though, paying $75 each or so for a couple of bench holdfasts that are properly made and will never break is a pretty good deal, particularly compared to other clamps every cabinetmaker needs. Heck, I've several hundred dollars in Bessey clamps, and while necessary to the work I do, the holdfasts get used a lot more.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I have a pair of the Galena Village holdfasts and I do nott in the least regret spending the extra money for a pair that are both functional and beautiful too. Mine were made by Jake the Russian rather than Phil.

On the subject of round dog holes, I started drilling the first couple of mine with a jig and a brad point bit chucked up in an electric drill. It was really slow work and hard to boot. I gave up and changed to my largest swing brace and a Russell Jennings bit. It was faster, less effort, and the results were better and that was in 3" thick white ash.