Glue and glue-ups

[Anthony Whitesell]

I typically use plain 'ol Titebond for my glueing. In the past I haven't done many, preferring fasteners to glue. The bottle of glue I have is a quart I purchased about a year ago. Thursday and today I did two box-style glue-ups. On Thursday the corners were lock miter joints and today they were drawer lock joints. It seems either the joints are very tight once the glue is applied or the glue is crying very quickly. I thought Titebond had a 5-10 minute open time, but in less than 2 minutes, I couldn't separate one of the corners. I doubt temperature is a factor, thanks to the ice storm my basement is now only 60 degrees.

Is my technique wrong? Too much or too little glue? Is the glue I'm using too old? Does the titebond glue swell the wood once applied? Am I using the wrong glue?

Thanks in advance for the insight and the advice.

[Jamie Buxton]

Titebond cures by loss of water. In the short term, the water is absorbed into the wood, and in the long term it migrates out of the lumber. If you make nice tight-fitting joints, there's not very much glue in the glue line. That is, there isn't much water which must get absorbed into the wood before the glue sets up. With well-made joints, the glue may set so well in a couple of minutes that you'll damage the wood if you try to take it apart. So if you're seeing that, congratulations, you're doing good woodworking.

(BTW, "open time" is how long a blob of glue can sit out in the open before it starts to cure. In this case, there's lots of water because the glue layer is much thicker than inside your joint. And also, the water mostly must evaporate to the atmosphere. Blotting it up with the wood is much faster.)

[Will Blick]

Great answer Jamie....

i will add.... its OK, to buy a bit more open time, to slightly moisten the glue surface (not heavy) area with a damp rag. As Jamie correctly points out, it's the water loss that reduces open time... pre moistening the wood slows this process...on avg. maybe 2x the open time...

[Anthony Whitesell]

I knid of figured that the glue was a bit old and therefore, based on what you said, is probably short on water. I thought about pre-moistening but wasn't sure. So, pre-moistening it is!

[Kent E. Matthew]

I have always used regular Elmer's glue. You have much more time to square things up.

[Sue Wise]

When I want a little more time, I use Titebond III.

[Frank Drew]

In my experience, cold glue applied to cold wood makes for a stickier glue, with less working time. Main reason aside from personal comfort that I like a reasonably warm shop (or, at least, a not cold shop).

[Tom Adger]

Go to the Lee Valley website. Look up 2002 GF glue. It has a working time of 15-20 minutes, vs 8-10 minutes for Titebond III. I think Titebond II is several minutes less. I Just build my workbench with the 2002, and have had no problems.

[Peter Quinn]

I've had the experience where an older bottle of glue seems to grab real quick, much quicker than I was used to. I suspect as you do that some evaporation had taken place but I stopped short of adding water to the glue, not sure just how much was enough. Moistening the joint seems like a good idea but I could see that going badly too if the grain starts raising in an irregular fashion and the wood swells. I've moistened joints that I couldn't assemble dry shortly after so be cautious there.

I think open time lets you know the maximum time after you spread the glue it is viable to assemble, but adjustment time is another matter. Once you assemble a nice tight joint like a lock miter or cope and mold you have introduced pressure which starts the bond setting, and even a brand new bottle of tite bond will make it hard to adjust such a joint within minutes. I tend to use tite bond III for more difficult assemblies as it posts a longer open time than type I.

[Jim Kountz]

I have always used regular Elmer's glue. You have much more time to square things up.

It would probably shock most of the members here and start a heck of a debate if they knew how many "real" professionals use plain old white glue for their furniture. I know a very prominent cabinetmaker near me, he and his family have a nationally recognized name for their quality work and craftsmanship, its about all they use on their work. Last time I was there he showed me a piece he was building for the first family and the whole thing was assembled with it.

[Steve Clardy]

All I use is titebond original.

I have added water to the bottle when the glue seemed to loose its moisture and seemed overly sticky, with success.
Doesn't take much water to free it up.

[Jay Yoder]

I too have experienced the phenomena of rapid glue setting, I used up a TiteBond I and it almost burned me. I guess next time I should pick TiteBond III eh? Or just a giant bottle of white glue? May be a stupid question, but what exactly are the differences. My g'pa made furniture and always had the yellow stuff around.

[Sonny Edmonds]

It would probably shock most of the members here and start a heck of a debate if they knew how many "real" professionals use plain old white glue for their furniture. I know a very prominent cabinetmaker near me, he and his family have a nationally recognized name for their quality work and craftsmanship, its about all they use on their work. Last time I was there he showed me a piece he was building for the first family and the whole thing was assembled with it.

I use yeller carpenters glue, from a 1 gallon jug. (The label fell off some years ago.)
But I dispense it out of a Tite Bond glue bottle.
Does that make it Tite Bond? :confused: :D

[Chip Lindley]

Sonny, its just *yeller glue*! Little difference between Elmers and TiteBond that I've seen.

When yeller glue gets a bit too thick due to age or cold, I heat my bottle up in the microwave for about 20 seconds. *Runny Yeller Glue* (for a while) is what thats called Sonny!!

[Sonny Edmonds]

Sonny, its just *yeller glue*! Little difference between Elmers and TiteBond that I've seen.

When yeller glue gets a bit too thick due to age or cold, I heat my bottle up in the microwave for about 20 seconds. *Runny Yeller Glue* (for a while) is what thats called Sonny!!

No Chip, it said Yeller Carpenters Glue when I bought it. But like I said, that lable done fell off. So I kant prove it said that.
Besides, what in the heck would a carpenter use glue on? Ain't no good on a samich. :p :D

I'll have to try your micro waved glue. Sounds like a neat trick! :)

[Drew Eckhardt]

On Thursday the corners were lock miter joints and today they were drawer lock joints. It seems either the joints are very tight once the glue is applied or the glue is crying very quickly.


Don't use PVA glue in lock miter joints. I tried Titebond to put together the four lock mitered sides of a 6.5" birch plywood box and it setup before I could get it pulled square (although the thing squared itself when dry-fit). I bought a brand new bottle of Titebond Extend (FWIW, shelf life is only a year) and the same thing happened again. With other projects occupying my time it's taken months to get back to where I was.

Then I gave up and switched to T-88 epoxy which has a 45 minute pot life and allows hours of tweaking but is a mess to work with and cleanup.

[Joe Chritz]

Something to remember about plywood is that every other core is endgrain and the glue will get sucked up (hence dry) faster then on the face or edge grain of solid lumber.

I use regular "yeller" glue all the time on dovetails and lock miters without any problem. You only have a couple minutes to get everything in order.

Extended time glues and plain white glue will help if you need more time. So will putting a very fine coat on the plywood edge then adding a bit more just before assembly, very similar to using glue size.

Joe

[Frank Drew]

I used hot glue (hide glue) exclusively for several years so anything else feels like I have all the open time in the world! It also made me very sensitive not to do glueups first thing in the morning, not until the wood had some time to warm up a bit.

[Steve Clardy]

No Chip, it said Yeller Carpenters Glue when I bought it. But like I said, that lable done fell off. So I kant prove it said that.
Besides, what in the heck would a carpenter use glue on? Ain't no good on a samich. :p :D

I'll have to try your micro waved glue. Sounds like a neat trick! :)

There's a brand out there called Old Yeller glue. Can't remember who sells it though.

[Rod Sheridan]

A second vote for Lee Valley 2002GF glue.

A fairly long open time and er............it um...........fills in small gaps when I um...............make a ...............you know.............a small mistakregards, Rod.

[John Schreiber]

In my experience, cold glue applied to cold wood makes for a stickier glue, with less working time. Main reason aside from personal comfort that I like a reasonably warm shop (or, at least, a not cold shop).
I've been working in a cold shop (40° F) recently and I've found the same thing. To stretch out the working time, I've been keeping my glue bottle in a bucket of hot water when not in use.

[Paul Ryan]

Has anyone tried wetting joints slightly to increse open time?

I have a long glue up comming probably 30min or a little more. I have some tite bond III I would like to use up. I hate to buy a different glue for this one project, that I know will never get used up.

I have dry assembled everything and everything fits as planned but I still am little worried. It is a mission style head board with 26 mortise and tendons that I need to get together. The slats will have to be pounded in, the joints fit pretty tight.

I guess I planned on wetting the tendons slightly before applying glue. Just want to make sure that wont cause any problems.

[Jim Kountz]

Has anyone tried wetting joints slightly to increse open time?

I have a long glue up comming probably 30min or a little more. I have some tite bond III I would like to use up. I hate to buy a different glue for this one project, that I know will never get used up.

I have dry assembled everything and everything fits as planned but I still am little worried. It is a mission style head board with 26 mortise and tendons that I need to get together. The slats will have to be pounded in, the joints fit pretty tight.

I guess I planned on wetting the tendons slightly before applying glue. Just want to make sure that wont cause any problems.

If the joints are so tight now that they require some "encouragement", when you wet them with water and glue they are going to get even tighter and may cause you some severe headaches. I would just get the proper glue with a longer open time, Titebond makes one thats under $10. Small price to pay to me to avoid what could potentially be a real pain in the rumpus!!

[M Toupin]

I have a long glue up comming probably 30min or a little more.

there's on way you're going to get 30min of open time out of a PVA glue, much less 30 min of assembly/tweaking time. The only glue with 30 min of working time is an epoxy. I like and use West System, it's good stuff, but it is a bit pricey.

On the other hand, who much is it worth to you to actually get all your hard work assembled and squared up? Seems a shame to scrimp and take a chance on the last stages of a project.

Mike

[Chris Tsutsui]

Those of you that pre-wet edges and slather on the glue to wipe away squeeze out. Don't you guys have trouble with warping due to the extra water content?

Maybe it's cause I'm on the warm coast and glue doesn't dry that fast for me.

Here's an interesting thought: Out of a 1 gallon glue jug, I bet HALF of that glue or more gets wiped away as squeeze out when it's all said and used. haha

BTW, I just got Titebond III the other day to add to my collection of glues. I guess i'm not going to use Gorilla Poly glue on any wood projects afterall. heh

[Paul Ryan]

It's not that I am really trying to skimp. I really want to put this thing together this weekend. I hate using epoxy because it is messy, and to be honest a PITA. I would buy tite bond extend if it was sold around here I cant seem to find anyone that has it. So I could order it but that shoots putting the thing together this weekend.

I looked at Franklins web site. Titebond III 10 minutes open, 20-25 minutes of assembly time. Titebond II extend 15 minutes open, 20-25 minutes assembly time. What is really the advantage of the extend, I am not going to leave the pieces glued but not in their joints. My total assembly on the head board or footboard should be about 30 minutes, maybe a little less, but I hate to rush, thats when mistakes happen.

[Dan Forman]

Titebond liquid hide glue has a pretty long open time, and it did well in a test of glues by Wood Magazine a while ago. It has the added advantage of being repairable if need be. Would seem to be just the thing for complicated assemblies.

Dan

[Phil Hansen]

We do not get Titebond glue here (South Africa) but Alcolin glue has "made by Franklin International" on the label.
I use Cold Glue - white PVA
Professional - yellow aliphatic
Ultra - brownish waterproof
What would the equivalent Titebond grades be?
I have phoned the help line but they cannot or will not give me the answers.
Would make my understanding of what you guys are using when you mention I, II or III etc. easier
Thanks

[Howard Acheson]

I knid of figured that the glue was a bit old and therefore, based on what you said, is probably short on water. I thought about pre-moistening but wasn't sure. So, pre-moistening it is!

Let me suggest you purchase your adhesive is smaller quantities. A year is pushing the shelf life of many adhesives. I date my adhesive bottle when I open it and discard it when it's six months old or so.

Adhesive is a cheap part of the project compared to the wood and your time. It's not the place to try to be frugal when it is the key component in a long lasting piece of furniture.

[Paul Murphy]

It's not that I am really trying to skimp. I really want to put this thing together this weekend. I hate using epoxy because it is messy, and to be honest a PITA. I would buy tite bond extend if it was sold around here I cant seem to find anyone that has it. So I could order it but that shoots putting the thing together this weekend.

I looked at Franklins web site. Titebond III 10 minutes open, 20-25 minutes of assembly time. Titebond II extend 15 minutes open, 20-25 minutes assembly time. What is really the advantage of the extend, I am not going to leave the pieces glued but not in their joints. My total assembly on the head board or footboard should be about 30 minutes, maybe a little less, but I hate to rush, thats when mistakes happen.

Paul, hope this helps:

Polyurethane glue has the longest open time of any glue I have tried. It needs a minimum wood moisture content to cure properly, so wipe at least one part of the joint with a damp rag. I have had good results with the Titebond Polyurethane on a tricky glue-up.

I have never tried hide glue, but hear it’s open time is temperature dependant.
I recently bought liquid hide glue to try making sawdust filler with because it is said to accept stain better than other agents.

FWIW I am using Titebond II Extend on a project currently, and my own experience is that open time is less than the listed 15 minutes, and way less with a less than generous bead of glue.

From the Franklin website:
Titebond®
Liquid Hide Glue
Application temperature Above 50°F.
Open assembly time 10 minutes (70°F./50% RH)
Total assembly time 20-30 minutes (70°F./50% RH)

Titebond®
Polyurethane Glue
Application temperature Above 50°F.
Assembly time after glue application 20-25 minutes (70°F./50%RH)

Titebond®
II Extend Wood Glue
Application temperature Above 60°F.
Open assembly time 15 minutes (70°F./50% RH)
Total assembly time 20-25 minutes (70°F./50% RH)

[Paul Murphy]

Oh yeah, urea formaldehyde glue(Weldwood, and others) also has a long open time, but is a pain to mix, and being 2-part any excess mixed is wasted. That said, it works well for bent lamination projects!

[Paul Ryan]

I still haven't found any other glue alternatives around this area. But my brother is comming over on sunday night to help assemble. That should speed up assembly time by about 10 minutes. One guy glueing the other guy assembling the pieces. Thanks for all of the suggestions.

[Mats Bengtsson]

I still haven't found any other glue alternatives around this area. But my brother is comming over on sunday night to help assemble. That should speed up assembly time by about 10 minutes. One guy glueing the other guy assembling the pieces. Thanks for all of the suggestions.

Many glues can get longer opening time by being put in the refrigerator before being used.

--- Mats ---