Should I use my Tarran Independence DT saw?

[Jim Barrett]

OK a weird question. I have a Peter Tarran Indpendence DT saw #409 which I purchased from him...who knows how many years ago!
Should I use this saw or "save" it due to it may be a collector item at some point? Maybe pick up a LN DT copy?

I used to chuckle to myself when I would ask my brother in law to open up some of his "older" wines...he would tell me the wine is "too good" to be consumed! hahaha kind of feel the same way about the saw?

Thanks,
Jim

[Andy Hsieh]

i guess it depends on would you ever actually sell it anyways? I thought about the same things after I bought the LN 4 1/2 anniversary from another fella on the net - for me the answer was No, I would not sell it. I think the greatest value of that plane for me will be that my kids will say, my dad used those tools to build this furniture - maybe they'll keep em, maybe they'll sell em, but the value they get from the nostalgia of what those special tools were able to create from their dad will be more valuable then the thousand bucks or whatever if I sold it flat out.

jmo - but I think you should use it, enjoy it and love it.

andy

[Casey Gooding]

Use it. I have two saws from him. A dovetail saw and a carcass saw (with matching serial numbers :) They are great tools that are meant to be used. I think the best way to honor a great tool is to put it to great use.

[Jim Koepke]

Many times in life things have been put aside for a "special occasion."

All to many times, the occasion never arrived. Often the item was no worse for the wait, sometimes though the item didn't make it through time and was never appreciated as it should have been.

Wines? When my son was born, I bought a few bottles of wine from his birth year and saved them until he was 21. He and I share a birthday, so it was extra special. His and my friends all enjoyed the wine and thought this was a great idea.

Since, I have bought wines from the birth years of my grandchildren. Hope I am around to enjoy it with them.

Back to the saw, it seems it would be a waste to not enjoy the use of a fine saw. I doubt when the time comes to sell it you will get much more joy out of the money for an unused saw than you will from the use of the saw and passing it on to someone who will use it with the same care.

jim

[Alan DuBoff]

Should I use this saw or "save" it due to it may be a collector item at some point? Maybe pick up a LN DT copy?
Absolutely use it. You can save and cherish it if you like, but I wouldn't, it's worth more to you as a tool than it is to save. You won't retire off the saw, as it won't be worth that much in your lifetime, so use that sucker until there's no more blade to file, and cherish the furniture that you built with it. My $0.02, never afraid to share it with folks. :)

[Mark Singer]

I would use it . I use many expensive tools , I just take care of them

[dan grant]

i have one off them, if you don't use it you wont know how much better it cuts, beautiful saw

[David Keller NC]

Interestingly enough, Dan has the Pete Tarran that I had. Despite the rather unanimous responses on this thread, I would think about this in monetary terms.

The saws that Pete made are indeed collector's items, but most of them were (and are) used, which makes an unused one fairly rare, and they're priced at the big tool auctions accordingly.

So - what's it worth to you to use the saw versus one that will likely perform equivalently from the more recent makers? If the answer is "about a hundred bucks", then the answer is to use it. If the answer is "no more than what an equivalent, but non-collector's item, saw costs", then the answer is to oil it carefully and put it on the shelf for display.

One of the things about this sort of decision has to do with depreciation. Pete's saws will only depreciate through use, otherwise, they've actually appreciated significantly since when they were last made. The saws that are currently manufactured from Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Mike Wenzloff, etc... will depreciate after purchase, regardless of whether you use them or not, because they're still manufactured.

Ironically enough, even the mass-manufactured saws of Lie-Nielsen with cocobola handles are now collector's items because they've stopped making that wood choice as an option.

In my own case, I will probably sell my Lie-Nielsen 4-1/2 Anniversary plane without using it. The reason is that I can buy an iron 4-1/2 with a high angle frog and cherry handles for about 1/3 what I can sell the 4-1/2 Anniversary for, and I rather doubt that there's much of a performance difference for the extra pound that the bronze anniversary provides.

That said, I do use high-end tools in the shop, but they are either collector's items that do not depreciate with use (like Norris handplanes) because they're already "used", or they're tools that are still manufactured and so are not heavily collected at the present time.

[Bill Houghton]

Response #1: when I was little, and there were dime stores, I always gave my grandmother embroidered handkerchiefs for her birthday. She'd put them away "for good." When we moved her from her house years ago, she had enough "for good" handkerchiefs in her dresser drawer to clean up an entire elementary school of kids with colds. Use it with joy.

Response #2: no, you should mail it to me for safekeeping. I'll need to do a certain amount of field testing to make sure it wasn't damaged in shipping. PM me, and I'll send you my address.

[Alan DuBoff]

One of the things about this sort of decision has to do with depreciation. Pete's saws will only depreciate through use, otherwise, they've actually appreciated significantly since when they were last made. The saws that are currently manufactured from Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Mike Wenzloff, etc... will depreciate after purchase, regardless of whether you use them or not, because they're still manufactured.
Your talking about such an insignificant amount of $$$s, does it really matter? The tool is not worth that much money, he should use it.

The difference in what you can sell a used one vs. a new one is minimal these days, all the more reason to use it.

Ironically enough, even the mass-manufactured saws of Lie-Nielsen with cocobola handles are now collector's items because they've stopped making that wood choice as an option.
Well, the proof is in the pudding as they say. Show me the big $$$s those saws are demanding. You can get cocobolo by asking LN for it, not sure about the saws, but TLN stashed some cocobolo handles for various tools, I got a 62 with cocobolo last year after he discontinued the use of it. I also got cocobolo shaves, after the fact as well. I use all of those tools and wouldn't think of anything else.

In my own case, I will probably sell my Lie-Nielsen 4-1/2 Anniversary plane without using it. The reason is that I can buy an iron 4-1/2 with a high angle frog and cherry handles for about 1/3 what I can sell the 4-1/2 Anniversary for, and I rather doubt that there's much of a performance difference for the extra pound that the bronze anniversary provides.
All of us are different. I only have a few tools I won't use, they are rare saws that have not been used, like a new-in-box Disston #68 gent's saw, and a Disston No 70 that pretty much hasn't been used. I wouldn't hesitate to use them though, and there is always that possibility, I'm not afraid to take any of my tools to wood. OTOH, I have a lot of other saws, don't need to buy any at 1/3rd the price, I have many others and can use saws I have made myself now. ;)

Seriously, if you folks want to collect, tools are not that best area, as the appreciation is slow. There are other better things to invest in, IMO.

[John Sanford]

Use it. Use it so well that it's value is from who used it, not who made it. Even if that value is only to your children or grandchildren, the value of any tool lies in what is made with it, not in its status as an item in a hoard.

:)

[Bruce Haugen]

the irony in this thread, especially the part that he had helped create a collectible. It's a tool, use it, that's what he made it for.

Bruce

[Andy Hsieh]

In my own case, I will probably sell my Lie-Nielsen 4-1/2 Anniversary plane without using it. The reason is that I can buy an iron 4-1/2 with a high angle frog and cherry handles for about 1/3 what I can sell the 4-1/2 Anniversary for, and I rather doubt that there's much of a performance difference for the extra pound that the bronze anniversary provides.


i hear your point on the value of the saw - I guess it just depends on how you look at it.

Like you said, high end tools and collectibles perform probably no better than mass made or higly available planes being made today - but why buy those tools anyways, because their is something inherent in the tool you enjoy whether just looking at it, just knowing you own one or knowing it will be awesome to use each time you pull it from the til.

i suspect this saw will wind up in a display case but hey, when you sell it and wind up with proceeds to buy an entire Seaton Saw set from Mr. Wenzloff, then you can put that in our face :) (with sawdust on it too)


andy

[Phillip Pattee]

Isn't what makes this saw inherently valuable is that it is a fine woodworking tool? How will you appreciate how well it works if you never use it?

Please don't drill a hanging hole in the blade, paint the handle neon orange, or carve your initials in the handle though!:eek:

[David Keller NC]

"Your talking about such an insignificant amount of $$$s, does it really matter? The tool is not worth that much money, he should use it."

Well, whether the money's insignificant or not is a matter of perspective. Unused independence tools dovetail saws sell for $200-$250 at big tool auctions, which is about twice what the Lie Nielsen clones sell for. There are plenty on the net forums that think a Lie-Nielsen anything is an unacceptable extravagance when cheap and rusty Stanleys can be restored to do the same thing. Then there are those of us who value British infill planes whose purchase price goes into the thousands.

But in my opinion flatly stating that all tools should be used is wrong, though it's a "shade of gray". It'd be, also in my opinion, really inappropriate to take the Seaton saws out of the Guildhall's chest and go cut planks with them just to see how a bonafide 18th century saw performs, and the Sandusky presentation plow was never intended to be used, though it meets all of the specifications of Sandusky's "user" center-wheel plows.

Moreover, the collector value for some tools is really high because most of them were used to extinction. Other than molding planes, which survive because of limited usage frequency, 18th century tools are rare and bring big bucks at auctions. It's not likely that an Independence Tool saw in unused, pristine condition will bring thousands in our lifetime, but it's highly possible in our children's or grandchildren's lifetime, if for no other reason that they represent the rebirth of the Western handsaw in high quality, handmade form.

My conclusion is that there's nothing even slightly wrong with enshrining a tool that was originally made to be used as a display piece. Without collectors and the casual accidents of preservation, we'd have no information about how woodworking was done in the distant past, and that's important.

[Alan DuBoff]

But in my opinion flatly stating that all tools should be used is wrong, though it's a "shade of gray". It'd be, also in my opinion, really inappropriate to take the Seaton saws out of the Guildhall's chest and go cut planks with them just to see how a bonafide 18th century saw performs
David,

Comparing a tool made 12 years ago to a tool that is more than 200 years old is like comparing an apple to watermelon.

Forbid someone would actually sharpen and use a 12 year old tool, what was I thinking...:rolleyes: Not to mention that you expressed fear in using a tool that is 1 year old...call me short sighted...:o

[Derek Cohen]

Pete Taran made wonderful saws and, together with Patrick Leach, Independence Tools were among the first to begin the resurgence to quality hand tools.

But this does not make the IT dovetail saw an icon, and IT is not enough of a unique maker or product to be a genuine collector's item. The fact that they are nice tools and that LN bought them out to produce their saws just underlines that they are nice tools, desirable tools, but serious Collector Tools. No Way!

Everyone has a different perception of what is valuable and costly. There are tools I own that would be placed in cotton wool by some, and there are tools that others own that I might be tempted to place in cotton wool. I do not place a value on a tool by virtue of its monetary value. So I just enjoy the heck out of my tools, and if it is a "special" tool, I might enjoy it even more.

I bought a brand spanking new IT about 3 or 4 years ago (it cost less that a LN), and the first thing I did with it was to send it to Mike Wenzloff to have it checked out and re-sharpened. He tuned it up for me, and I have enjoyed using it ever since. About a year agoI had an email from Pete saying that he recalled making my saw since it used a special piece of curcly maple.

Let's see, I could have kept it in cotton wool and it might have appreciated $100, even $200 in value. Oh the hell with it, appreciated $400 over the next 20 years. That works out to $20 per year. I believe I'd rather enjoy cutting dovetails with it while I can, than the few bucks I possibly may acrue in 20 years time.

I better not mention the panther head saw ... (just kidding).

Review of IT: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Magbanua]

Unless you're really in need of some money why worry about monetary value? Since you're considering a LN saw in its place, I'd say you're not starving. Le'me ask you this...

If you put this saw in a case and used a Crown gents saw to make all of your beautiful furniture with, which saw would have more value to your children? Which one would be on display at the "Jim Barrett Museum"?

My grandfather was a wood carver in the Philippines during the war. He made all of his own tools from scrap metal. If I had one of those in my possession it would be my most valued tool. I might actually even use it!

[David Keller NC]

"Comparing a tool made 12 years ago to a tool that is more than 200 years old is like comparing an apple to watermelon."

This is missing the point - 200+ year old tools were new once, and so far as we're aware, tools were not collector's items until relatively recently (last 40 years or so). If everyone put new tools to use, there will be no unused tools from this era 100 years from now. Whether something is, or is not, collectible is a completely subjective judgement. There are some that consider plastic Star Wars figurines from the 80's to be highly collectible (and their price on e-bay reflects that), but I wouldn't have one in my house.

"Forbid someone would actually sharpen and use a 12 year old tool, what was I thinking...:rolleyes: Not to mention that you expressed fear in using a tool that is 1 year old...call me short sighted...:o"

And no, my argument is untainted by ethics here, I was just stating that the OP might consider that an almost (but not quite) saw is available that will probably work just as well, and the IT saw will appreciate in value as a collector's item should he decide to use it as a display piece. And IT saws are definitely collector's items, assuming one accepts the judgement of the marketplace at big tool auctions - there is little doubt in this.

And there's no fear associated with using my LN 4-1/2 Anniversary (it is, BTW, a roughly 2 year old tool now (not that that makes any difference) - they were produced near the end of 2006. It's just that I've decided that since they are indeed collector's items despite their young age, they go for way more than they cost originally, their numbers are finite (i.e., I can't replace one for what it cost me to buy), and I can get an almost identical plane (but in iron) for about $400, I'd rather sell it to someone and pocket the extra $800 (but I'll probably spend it on more hantools. :D) I can, of course, still sell it if I use it, but currently that de-values the plane by about $400. I've so many planes that just putting it to a plank to see how it performs is not worth $400 to me, but your mileage may vary...

[David Keller NC]

"But this does not make the IT dovetail saw an icon, and IT is not enough of a unique maker or product to be a genuine collector's item. The fact that they are nice tools and that LN bought them out to produce their saws just underlines that they are nice tools, desirable tools, but serious Collector Tools. No Way!"

Derek - I'm not sure I understand. The above paragraph's point is immediately undercut by your next paragraph, that notes that whether something is a collector's item is subjective.

But this is not a wholly subjective choice in that the marketplace determines whether something has collector's value based on the aggregated subjective opinions of a large group. I suppose this can also be argued, but this is also a sliding scale of "serious collector's tools vs. no collector's value". My thought on this is that a tool that has depreciated significantly over its original purchase price and brings considerably less than an equivalent new one has no collector's premium. One that is used but nonetheless sells for the same or a slightly higher price than a new one has at least some collector's value, and a tool that sells for far more than what it would cost to reproduce has a very high collector's premium.

And back to Alan's point, age factors into collector's value, but just because something's young doesn't mean that it doesn't have collector's value. I cite as an example the Lie-Nielsen #9 in bronze. Though these tools are less than 10 years old, a bronze example in unused condition sells for about $1500 on e-bay. Since an iron example can be purchased new from L-N for $375, I conclude that bronze #9s have significant collector's value, though they are not old.

Finally - and I'll let the guys on this thread have the last word, this isn't FWW's Knots forum after all (where threads go on and on in endless circular, sometimes vicious, arguments), it's inappropriate, in my view, to deplore declining to use a tool because it might have collector's value on the basis that a tool was a utilitarian object that was meant to be used. It's simply immaterial what the original maker's intent was - the usage or enjoyment of a tool as a display piece is solely in the hands of the current owner.

Just as an example of that last point, in my opinion (that would be very unpopular with tool collectors), Stanley tools with the exception of Miller fillister plow planes and some rules are not worthy of a collection or collectability.

I consider it completely idiotic to pay $3500 for a pristine example of a Stanley #1, but they are hotly competed for at big auctions, and the primary reason is not that they are rare (they aren't - Stanley produced thousands upon thousands of them), it's because they're considered cute. Personally, I consider that a disturbing criteria for what is largely a bunch of old men to put on an object - I'd expect that at a ceramics auction that's largely attended by women. But again, my opinion doesn't count, and Stanley #1s are without much debate, collector's items.:D

[Alan DuBoff]

But this does not make the IT dovetail saw an icon, and IT is not enough of a unique maker or product to be a genuine collector's item. The fact that they are nice tools and that LN bought them out to produce their saws just underlines that they are nice tools, desirable tools, but serious Collector Tools. No Way!
QFT, I'm with 'ya Derek!

Either way, I'm not focused on collectible tools, I use them, and I would use a LN #9 in bronze the same as I would in iron. Pity me when I have a bunch of tools I'm afraid to use...:o At that point I would get NO project done...*sigh*

[Jim Barrett]

For what it is worth...I purchased a LV DT saw....wow I am really impressed!!...my Independence DT saw is going into hibernation for a while...
Regards,
Jim