Byrd Shelix inserts breaking.

[Rick Anderson]

I purchased a used 20" Shop Fox planer w/ Byrd Shelix cutter head a year ago. I loved it so much that I replaced the cutter head on my 8" Grizzly jointer with the Shelix too. The inserts on the planer have been rotated once.....and the seats cleaned and inserts torqued when reinstalling. I have had a number of inserts (approx. 20) break on the planer......and none on the jointer. I'm wondering what experience others are having with their inserts and if anyone has any suggestions to reduce breakage.

[Clifford Mescher]

That seems unusual to me. Do you think maybe your tightenng them too much? Just a thought. Clifford.

[Rick Anderson]

Cliff,
I'm tightening the insert screws to 55 in. lb. per an instruction sheet from the Byrd website.

[C Scott McDonald]

Maybe they are shattereing due to chatter some some sort.

Hard telling.

Scott

[Steve Vaughn]

Cliff,
I'm tightening the insert screws to 55 in. lb. per an instruction sheet from the Byrd website.


Just a thought but have you had your torque wrench calibrated lately?


Steve

[Joe Chritz]

I am leaning to to much torque or a bad batch of inserts. Any chance they were dropped at some point? Maybe even at the factory. Carbide is brittle and doesn't like impacts to much.

Since you are using a torque wrench I assume it something with the inserts themselves.

Joe

[Tom Veatch]

Rick, out of curiosity, what sort of tool are you using to apply/measure the torque?

I'm trying to talk myself (into, out of) buying a Shelix head and don't own any kind of torque wrench/screwdriver. Did a short Google search for "torque screwdriver" and am now trying to catch my breath after the sticker shock. Most of those I found topped out at or below 50 in-lbs.

[Rick Fisher]

A quick call to Byrd will probably answer your question. If they are a bad batch, Byrd will likely already know about it.

Either way, I am sure they have heard of it before.

[Dan Burstyn]

Hi Rick,

In talking with my local tool guy,
he warned me that the shelix inserts are brittle, due to their small size.

He said that they work great for finishing :D,
but are not as capable at roughing (large/deep cuts).:mad:

Think - Planer blade angle........

So my quess :confused: would be that you are trying to plain to much on the planer (for what thickness the helix can handle), and you are jointing small thickness-es on the jointer, and getting away with it.


Hope that helps.
Dan B.

[David Duke]

Rick, out of curiosity, what sort of tool are you using to apply/measure the torque?

I'm trying to talk myself (into, out of) buying a Shelix head and don't own any kind of torque wrench/screwdriver. Did a short Google search for "torque screwdriver" and am now trying to catch my breath after the sticker shock. Most of those I found topped out at or below 50 in-lbs.

I just ordered a 15" cutter head from Byrd for my Jet planer and will be very interested in finding out the resolution of the OP's problems. But as far as the torque driver, when I ordered my cutter head Monday, the lady told me that a torque driver would come with the new head plus 10 additional inserts, I haven't received it yet and will follow up when I do.

[Dave Verstraete]

Rick
A couple of questions.

You said that the only ones that have been rotated are on the planer, right? How long ago? Over what period of time have they broken?

Typically, what depth of cut were you taking when they broke? In what type of wood?

Have any inserts broken on the jointer?

Without more info, I guess that I am leaning toward:
Too much torque or dirt under the inserts

The reasoning: The inserts themselves have been around for quite a while (at least a year). The seats where the inserts are mounted are OK because it didn't happen until the inserts were rotated. This has something to do with the Rotation Process.

[Brian Gumpper]

I'm in the too much torque crowd too. I've sold a fair amount of those heads and never had a complaint about inserts breaking. Most of my customers haven't rotated them either and may not in their lifetime.

Call Byrd, they are more than helpful and will resolve any issue you have.

[Bruce Page]

Rick, you don’t really say in your OP whether they are breaking during install or use, I’m assuming use. Are they chipping on the cutting edge or breaking across the screw hole? Insert tooling is pretty durable and has been in use in the machine shop world for at least 25-30 years. I have never heard of them breaking if properly seated and machinists typically don’t use a torque wrench to install them - I know I never have. (Kennametal and Valenite, two of the big boys in machine shop tooling furnish star type Allen wrenches to install their inserts.)
I have no way of knowing but if they are chipping, I would guess that they are defective or you are taking too large a cut. If they are cracking across the screw hole then I don’t think they are seating properly – it could simply be a bad batch that is oversize by a few thousandths, not allowing the insert to bottom out on the seat.
In any case, give Byrd a call.

[Steve Vaughn]

Rick, out of curiosity, what sort of tool are you using to apply/measure the torque?

I'm trying to talk myself (into, out of) buying a Shelix head and don't own any kind of torque wrench/screwdriver. Did a short Google search for "torque screwdriver" and am now trying to catch my breath after the sticker shock. Most of those I found topped out at or below 50 in-lbs.


I have an old Craftsman version of this style and it works fine. For the occasional user you don't need to spend a lot of money.

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Needle-Style-0-150-Torque-Wrench/dp/B0019VMI0Y/ref=pd_cp_auto_2?pf_rd_p=413863601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000MB53ZE&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1C1620Y85EY0DBE2KYZX


Steve

[Neal Clayton]

I purchased a used 20" Shop Fox planer w/ Byrd Shelix cutter head a year ago. I loved it so much that I replaced the cutter head on my 8" Grizzly jointer with the Shelix too. The inserts on the planer have been rotated once.....and the seats cleaned and inserts torqued when reinstalling. I have had a number of inserts (approx. 20) break on the planer......and none on the jointer. I'm wondering what experience others are having with their inserts and if anyone has any suggestions to reduce breakage.

depending on how hard they were used by the previous owner and by you, i would consider this normal.

last time i rotated mine on my 18" planer i broke about 10. i use it primarily to plane old growth salvaged longleaf pine (aka very hard), in long lengths (16 feet minimum, so any snipe is loud and deep and hard to eliminate).

yeah these inserts leave a good cut and last a long time compared to straight knives, but any stress imperfection at all will break them, that's part of the deal.

although mine didn't break under use, they broke when being re-torqued after turning them. if they broke under use, i would suspect as others mentioned that they're overly tight. from my experience if one is going to break it'll break under the screw torque before you get a chance to use it again.

[Rick Anderson]

Time to post an update on my original post......and to answer some of the questions posed by other Creekers.

Virtually all of the breakage I experienced was in use. The inserts were torqued when rotated to 55 in. lbs. per Byrd instructions . I was not aware of any inserts that broke during installation. I was very fastidious in cleaning the seats......a brass "toothbrush" as well as compressed air.

After the holidays I called Byrd to discuss the problem. It turns out that at some point they had increased the insert screw size from a #8 to #10 but continued for a short period to use the inserts marked "Byrd Tool" which apparently are intended for use with a #8 machine screw. They then switched to the inserts they currently use which are marked "BT". The "BT" inserts have a larger hole/countersink which accomodates a #10 screw properly. It suddenly hit me that none of the replacement inserts I had installed (marked "BT") had ever broken. Nor had any of the inserts (marked "BT") in the shelix head on my jointer ever broken.

Byrd agreed to send me a set of used (only 1 face used) inserts. The new inserts arrived last week and I installed them this past weekend......and am pleased (very pleased!) to report that after running quite a number of boards through the planer there are no fragments of carbide to be found anywhere. Considering that I am the second owner of this planer/cutter head and it is 4+ years old I was most impressed that Byrd really stands behind their product.......and didn't hide behind the fine print of a warranty.