Please explain ebony?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm thinking that I want to make a plane from a kit, and that ebony would be nice as the stuffing. Problem is, there are at least three different types of "ebony"?!?! So far I've found Maccasser, Gaboon, and African Blackwood all called ebony. Which is the true traditional ebony, like a plane maker from the 1800's might have had access to?

Found two more, Ceylon and Royal Mexican. I'm not making this up.

[Frank Drew]

Steve,

From my limited experience, Macassar Ebony is the most striking looking, with streaks of tan and brown, but not the blackest. The Gaboon that I've seen, and the African Blackwood I've seen in pictures, are more what we think of as black ebony.

[Sonny Edmonds]

Ebony is like Irony, sept it's blacker. :D
__________________________________________________ ___________
Sorry, I just couldn't let that chance pass...

From what I know (damned little about Ebony) African blackwood isn't a true Ebony.
I belive true Ebony is the Gaboon variety. It is all black, and hard.
I have some African "Ebony" and it has some sapwood inclusions in it that are white to cream colored.
It still makes nice pens through. :)

[Doug Shepard]

I'm pretty sure there are Latin name differences between the species but Gaboon and Ceylon are pretty indistinguishable. I've got a bit of Ceylon that is darn near impossible to determine a grain direction on. It planes the same from any direction and I've had a few pieces of Gaboon in the past that were the same way. Both of them had a small bit of pale color streaking in them but not like the pronounce brown streaking that Macassar does. Macassar seems to not have as tight a grain as the Ceylon/Gaboon and you can make out a few pores here and there. Never heard of the Mexican variety or worked with Blackwood.

[Frank Drew]

From what I've seen, most of the ebony used in British infill planes was Gaboon -- very smooth and very black; most of the highly decorative ebony used in high-end furniture was (is) Macassar.

[Doug Shepard]

From what I've seen, most of the ebony used in British infill planes was Gaboon ...

What with the heavy British colonial presence in India/Ceylon, I would have guessed Ceylon ebony but dont know for sure. They also had a lot of colonies in East Africa but I think that's the wrong coast for Gaboon ebony.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks guys. This stuff is pricey, and as I've never bought it before, I don't know the best sources. Any ideas on that as well? I saw a nice piece of Ceylon on ebay, which looked like it would work well, but having my vast lack of knowlege of ebony, I wonder if I better buy from a pro.

[JD Dolan]

Gaboon ebony is the black wood most people associate with ebony. Macassar ebony has beautiful colors and lines and is also a true ebony. African blackwood is also black (often used for musical instruments) and very hard and heavy, but it's a rosewood.

I think any of them would work just fine for you purposes. (So would tulipwood, kingwood, and pink ivory.) Just depends on the look you're going for.

J.D.

[Frank Drew]

Doug,

You're probably correct; I should have said that the infill ebony I've seen is black, from wherever.

[Danny Burns]

African Blackwood will have a silky/sheen appearance to it.

[Ron Petley]

Here you go, but, you could fall in there and not come out for days.

http://www.gilmerwood.com/giantmenu.html

So what is the kit you are making?
Cheers Ron.

[Doug Shepard]

The top 2 pics on Ron's site http://breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html are of the plane he made for me using ebony that I sent him. That was identified as Ceylon ebony when I purchased it a number of years ago. Out of all the ebony listed on the Gilmer site that Ron linked to, the ones that look most like what I have are the Madagascar ebony (another one I hadn't heard of).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Here you go, but, you could fall in there and not come out for days.

http://www.gilmerwood.com/giantmenu.html

So what is the kit you are making?
Cheers Ron.


Thanks Ron, if I can't find what I'm looking for in there, I probably don't need it! Love the URL as well, very descriptive.

I was watching a Legacy Planeworks shoulder plane on ebay, that ended about 10:30 my time. Unfortunatly, I moved a meeting up to 10:30, and forgot all about bidding. Not sure which I will build now...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The top 2 pics on Ron's site http://breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html are of the plane he made for me using ebony that I sent him. That was identified as Ceylon ebony when I purchased it a number of years ago. Out of all the ebony listed on the Gilmer site that Ron linked to, the ones that look most like what I have are the Madagascar ebony (another one I hadn't heard of).

Thanks for the photo Doug. Thats the look I had in mind. I've lost track of how many different names we've unearthed for ebony now, but thats the first I'd heard of Madagascar as well. I also didn't know that Ron offered kits...

[Doug Shepard]

... I also didn't know that Ron offered kits...

Im not sure if he ever got the kits for the full size smoother developed or not, but the small smoother kit has an excellent blog writeup by Jameel Abraham worth checking out. Theres a link to it on Ron's kit page.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've purchased from Gilmerwood. Beautiful stock. The problem is you need to order $100 worth or more. The bigger problem is that it's sooo easy to do so.

[philip marcou]

I'm thinking that I want to make a plane from a kit, and that ebony would be nice as the stuffing. Problem is, there are at least three different types of "ebony"?!?! So far I've found Maccasser, Gaboon, and African Blackwood all called ebony. Which is the true traditional ebony, like a plane maker from the 1800's might have had access to?

Found two more, Ceylon and Royal Mexican. I'm not making this up.

African Blackwood is not ebony-it is a Rosewood-specifically Dalbergia Melanoxylon. So it is erroneous to refer to it as "Ebony" because it is not even the same species.
Ebony belongs to the Diospyros species and the better known ones are African Ebony (Diospyros crassiflora) and Macassar Ebony (Diospyros clebica), both of which would have been used by makers of old.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Phillip, out of the list of common names, I assume that Gaboon, Ceylon, Madagascar are true ebony? Macasser and that royal Mexican thing might be clebica, and blackwood is actually a rosewood. Correct? Not sure how this could be confusing....

[Raney Nelson]

Steve,

There are actually quite a few 'ebonies' - diospyros - out there, but Philip is right. Most people, if they don't specify, are thinking of Gabon when they say ebony. Macassar ebony is a very different wood, and African Blackwodo has nothing to do with ebony other than being black, and being wood.

After you've used these woods a couple of times, it's really not that confusing anymore. Seems silly now, but when I started woodworking, I remember not knowing how to tell the difference between Birch and Oak - they were both 'lightish' woods. Spend five minutes actually working on either wood, and you'll never see them as remotely similar again. ;)

Furthermore, there will be different names for the same species of wood - sometimes based on where it was harvested, sometimes based on not much of anything at all - which adds a lot to the confusion. Gilmer tends to be one of the most accurate in their naming, and their descriptions, of any of the retailers out there. Some retailers don't know a lot of this stuff themselves...

[Ron Petley]

Gilmer is a good place for nice wood, it is one of the few places where you can see the exaxt piece you are buying. I bought a swack of african blackwood clarenet blank rejects, found them somewhere deep in the sale page. It is much softer than ebony but still nice stiff for furniture handles and such. They were rejucts because they had a small white streak in them or they were not really black.
Cheers Ron.

[Montgomery Scott]

Ebony belongs to the Diospyros species and the better known ones are African Ebony (Diospyros crassiflora) and Macassar Ebony (Diospyros clebica), both of which would have been used by makers of old.

Diospyros is the genus, not the species.

For the blackest ebony the choices are Madagascar, Nigerian, East Indian and Gabon, though sometimes you can find Macassar that has no brown streaking in it at all, but that is not very common, AFAIK.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Guys, I don't mean to hijack this thread with a new question, but this is related. I have a stash of African Blackwood, or so it claims, but I am a little dubious. I made a box out of some quarter sawn sycamore, and used some of the blackwood for stringing. I wiped on a coat of linseed, and the color of the blackwood bled into the sycamore. I was imediantly suspicious that the blackwood may have been cosmetically enhanced. Thoughts? If this was legit, will ebony do the same thing?

[Mike Henderson]

I don't have any experience with blackwood but I do with ebony. The only "bleeding" I get with ebony is the dust from sanding. If that dust gets into the grain of the other wood, it's hard to get out.

Bloodwood is much worse.

Mike

[philip marcou]

You are right enough, but the defining words are those botanical names beginning with Dalbergia or Diosyros, or Pterocarpus etc etc.
And the other poster who said that it all becomes clear once you actually work these delightful timbers-and smell them. They all have distinct smells which help identify them. Once you have smelled African Blackwood you don't forget it.

[philip marcou]

Phillip, out of the list of common names, I assume that Gaboon, Ceylon, Madagascar are true ebony? Macasser and that royal Mexican thing might be clebica, and blackwood is actually a rosewood. Correct? Not sure how this could be confusing....

Yes -you are right on the first three. I am not sure about Mexican-if it is not a Diospyros then it is not Ebony.... Macassar is also an ebony aka Indian Ebony (Diospyros celebica)
African Blackwood is one of several Rosewoods. Not to be mentioned in the same breath as Australian Blackwood (;). Then their is Indian Rosewood which is Dalbergia latifolia....
Then there is PNG Rosewood-which is Pterocarpus indicus-not a dalbergia and therefore not a Rosewood....Quite confusing but very interesting they all are.

[philip marcou]

Guys, I don't mean to hijack this thread with a new question, but this is related. I have a stash of African Blackwood, or so it claims, but I am a little dubious. I made a box out of some quarter sawn sycamore, and used some of the blackwood for stringing. I wiped on a coat of linseed, and the color of the blackwood bled into the sycamore. I was imediantly suspicious that the blackwood may have been cosmetically enhanced. Thoughts? If this was legit, will ebony do the same thing?

Re the bleeding- I don't know if Ebony will do that, but I do know that African Blackwood can do it. You can stop this by use of a shellac sealer like Zinsser Bulls Eye dewaxed shellac sealer which is magical stuff.

[David Keller NC]

Steve - I've worked a fair amount of the exotic woods mentioned in this thread, and I also collect old tools. I've never seen a British infill plane with Macassar ebony infill (doesn't mean they don't exist, but they're probably very, very rare if they do). To my knowledge, antique British infills with African Blackwood are also non-existant, and I think I know why.

Despite its reputation, gabon ebony is fairly easy to work. I'm sure this would vary from log to log, but it planes extremely well if the shavings are thin. It can also be shaped quite effectively with rasps and carving tools, though it is considerably harder than more common carving woods.

However, African Blackwood is a nightmare to work with hand tools - it is incredibly hard, and I've found that it does not plane very well as the fibers seem to be bonded to each other with considerably greater strength than with ebony species. That does not, however, mean that it can't be worked into an infill - Konrad Sauer does it frequently, though he did write up a post specifically about its hardness - one of the notable comments in that blog entry was that it was unworkable with a rasp (it kept breaking the teeth off of the rasp - now that's hard!) and required a metal-working file to properly shape it.

African blackwood does, however, work very well with high-speed tool steel lathe tools, which might explain its use in woodwind instruments like clarinets and oboes, and its popularity as pen-turning material.

[David Keller NC]

Steve - One other comment; if you'd like to spend a little less than Gilmer charges for ebony, you can get it at Tropical Hardwoods of Latin America: http://www.anexotichardwood.com/.

Generally speaking, they're about 40% less than Gilmer, though that varies depending on the species. I've purchased a few bolts of gabon ebony from them in the past, and was pleased with what I received.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Excellent info, thanks again guys!

[James G. Jones]

Ron,
Wow. You weren't kidding. Me looking at that site is like the proverbial kid in the candy store. Curiouser and curiouser...

James

[harry strasil]

old time formula for ebony substitue, dissolve some nails in Vinegar then soak some kind of hardwood in the solution. FWIW

[Eddie Darby]

Anyone try the sponsor of this page yet?

KJP Select Hardwoods.

http://www.kjpselecthardwoods.com/

Should thank them for sponsoring the SMC forum.:rolleyes:

Thanks!:D

[Kevin Brenton]

Yes -you are right on the first three. I am not sure about Mexican-if it is not a Diospyros then it is not Ebony.... Macassar is also an ebony aka Indian Ebony (Diospyros celebica)
African Blackwood is one of several Rosewoods. Not to be mentioned in the same breath as Australian Blackwood (;). Then their is Indian Rosewood which is Dalbergia latifolia....
Then there is PNG Rosewood-which is Pterocarpus indicus-not a dalbergia and therefore not a Rosewood....Quite confusing but very interesting they all are.


Also ,not widely know is Australian Ebony, Diospyros compacta ,
It grows in my local area .I have seen logs cut from one local tree that are very black and quite weighty but with some slightly lighter streaks through it.It also has a creamy white sapwood .

The fellow who showed me the wood promised to identify to me the tree that he got it from ,but I haven't been able to pin him down for a definite time for a look see.He had six or seven logs around 8" diameter and two feet long.
He also told me as the branches on the tree die ,the white sapwood rots away leaving the black heartwood.
The trees around my area tremble when I drive past as I'm always looking closely to see if one is the tree I'm looking for.
Hope fully after the monsoon season is finished I can get out and harvest some of this timber.

Kev

[philip marcou]

"Also ,not widely know is Australian Ebony, Diospyros compacta ,"
Send me a small piece, and I will make it widely known. Something in the order of 30inch diameter by say 6feet with minimal sap wood would do.;)