Buying New vs Used Machines

[Andrew Joiner]

I want a 20" or larger bandsaw. Also looking at old or new lathes. The top choice for new is the Grizzly 21" or 24".
Has anyone seen the G0568 24" 5HP? I live 8 hours from the showroom so I may order it without seeing it. One thing I don't like is the wheels on the latest web page photo have big Grizzly head cutouts. The 2008 catalog shows round cutouts with more iron.

Then I see posts on here with photos of big solid cast iron frames like Lou Sansone's ,wow! But even an expert like Lou says he's been burned buying used.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=236347

I had some classic cars when I was a kid and that was fun, but parts and reliability issues killed the romance as I matured. I've only bought new cars and trucks for a while now.

I really don't want to rebuild an old bandsaw. It seems like alot could be wrong with an old saw thats been used by many. Things you wouldn't find until you hauled it and set it up in your own shop.

I hope to find a used saw in good working order that I can run onsite and have delivered.

Any other things I'm missing? Is Old Iron worth the trouble?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Well Andrew, IMHO, it's not something you can make a hard and fast rule on. I'd say, if you have some time to tinker, and the desire, and you can get a high value tool for pennies on the dollar in the end, old iron can't be beat.

That's why I have a 36" Oliver bandsaw, which has cost me to date, not counting blades, $900. I knew it would need a new motor eventually when I bought it, and I knew the tilt was goofed up. I couldn't see any good reason to ever tilt the beast, so that didn't bother me, and the $400 original price gave me lots of room for a new motor, and maybe a retro fit from the babbit. Turns out I like the babbit for now, although I have the new bearings on hand.

On the other end of the spectrum, I've always wanted a big capacity jointer and planer. Sliding table saws have always seemed like a good idea too. Buying all of this in old iron may have taken a bunch of time to tinker with and I've never seen a decent 12" or greater Oliver jointer go for what I though was a bargain. Planners are just as bad, unless you get into the 15hp industrial range, but then there are other issues, like electrical service and room. Old sliding table saws exist, but the new stuff has some fundimental design improvements IMHO. Put all this together and a new Felder combo made sense in this instance.

Bottom line, yes old iron can be worth the effort, but new stuff has advantages as well. One big advantage of old iron is that you can get into an old industrial quality machine for much less then new. The balancing act is, time or money, which to spend?

[John Shuk]

If you are entering into it thinking that it is more than you'd like to get into then you are probably right. There are lots of different type of folks out there and rebuilding or rehabbing old machines isn't for everyone. I have an old 12 inch jointer sitting in my garage that needs work. It seemed like a good idea at the time but truth be told it seems like such a daunting task to me that I can't get started. But buying used shouldn't be ruled out. Many times people buy machines and never use them or use them very little. I'd keep an eye on Craigslist and see what you can find.
If you find you have the budget to get brand new none of us here will call you a sissy.
Other people will say that there is no other way to go than to buy older equipment. I don't have the time or skills to dedicate to it.

[Joe Mioux]

buying used or old can take two paths.

one being buying something used out of a commercial business, or

two, buying used from a hobbyist that has lost interest in woodworking.

the latter may cost you a bit more upfront, but there is a good probability that the equipment will be ready to use.

joe

[Karl Brogger]

I buy as much used as I can. New stuff is expensive, and in many cases not as good as the old stuff. Plus the trades are in the tank right now so there is a pretty good supply of used stuff available.

[Cary Falk]

I have mixed feelings about used. Used can take on two routes in my opinion. The first is the complete restore route. I bought a 1970 Uni as a restore project. I thought I looked it over good but got burnt on a couple of parts that were broken. After all was said and done I didn't come out ahead of new and I am not convinced a new Uni wouldn't last as long for me than my rehab would. Finding replacement parts is time consuming and a pain for me at least. The restores take shop time. The process is only somewhat rewarding. The other side of used is the plug and play side. I purchased a Grizzly 18/36 sander for half price that I am happy with. Watching CL is very time consuming. You also have to be in an area where there are a lot of bargins. Most of the stuff here has an asking price of about 90% of new. New is just more convient most of the time and I like shiny.

[lou sansone]

hi Andrew
as some of you know, I do have a fair amount of old iron and some nice new European machines as well. for old iron, - big old iron - try to stay away from furniture factories. their machines are run very hard most of the time. machines that come out of pattern shops are some of the best. that is where all of mine have come from. A band saw is one tool that old iron really works nice with. I have had the new Italian band saws and they don't hold a candle to my moak super 36 inch direct drive band saw.

I think the chances of having a total flop is very remote. like I said, stay away from the furniture factories. one owner shops are fine. my 37" timesavers wide belt from the 70's is in perfect shape and a real work horse in my shop. it came from a single owner shop. it did have a couple of small problems, that i was able to fix. not a super big deal.

best wishes
lou

[Steve H Graham]

I am terrified of old tools, because I am not qualified to say whether they're in good shape. But I just bought a Powermatic 66 off Craigslist, because I knew it had so few parts, there was virtually no way anything could be wrong with it that I could not fix.

[Craig Kershaw]

I've had some good experiences buying used equipment. I bought a used Delta 12" planer(not a lunchbox) for $400, less than half than cost new. Its a solid machine, but needed to be adjusted. The guy I bought it from took good care of it, once I got it tuned up it runs like a champ. I got lucky - I was in the market for a planer and was just about to buy a lunchbox planer when the Delta came up.

On the other hand, I bought my joiner and table saw new; I combed the used equipment list for some time and nothing near me popped up. There are good deals on used equipment to be had, but patience and luck play a part.

[John Bush]

Hi Andrew,
I have the Griz 0531 21" BS and it is a great machine. The newer version listed in their '09 catalogue has a motor brake they say stops in 3 sec. I bought mine last year and it has a brake shoe for the lower wheel and after wearing it in a bit, it stops very quickly with a little extra foot pressure. I couldn't see any other differences. A recent flier from Griz listed my version @~1495 so that is a great deal. I originally wanted an Agazzani 20"er but am to cheap to step up for my level of WWing. I had been looking for a used Euro model for quite a while but none ever materialized. If you are patient you may have better luck, if you are impatient like me, grab it and growl. It is a good value at that price.

[Jim Kountz]

I have gone the used route in the past and when I did my major shop overhaul in November I thought I would again. The reality of it though was I spent hours scouring the net and want ads and found nothing in the way of a good deal or bargain. Seems like people would pay $1000 for something 10 years ago then try to sell it for $875 or something like that. I just upgraded most of the major machines in the shop, table saw, jointer, bandsaw, disc sander and lathe and with the exception of the TS I bought all new stuff. If you count your time for anything you would be hard pressed to come out ahead on used stuff unless you look today and find it tomorrow which probably isnt going to happen!!

[Joe Chritz]

There are companies that refurbish old machines and sell them (I think Barn door lumber in Hemlock MI does Oliver machines) and if you have the dough that could be the best of both worlds for you.

Ex-factory is a website that has a ton of used equipment for sale. Some refurbished and some sold through dealers.

There is something cool about a big old hunk of iron. There is also something cool about having one delivered and plugging it in and going to town.

Joe

[Rich Boehlke]

I like buying used used machines especially from private parties. While it is true that used equipment will need attention such as tune ups, blade changes etc. it is not unusual for new machines to need setup time also. Any time spent tuning your machine, new or old, is time well spent since you will likely need to perform those operations again sometime during your ownership and it is always easier (and quicker) the second or third time you do it. I look at tinker time as valuable skill building.

Consider also the value of buying used vs. new. Personally, I couldnt afford to build a whole shop with new machinery.

[Craig McCormick]

I bought a used lathe from a prominent member of our local wood turners association. I was not able to put it through its paces at his house. I found when I got it home and tried to turn on it that the drive system was not compatible with the lathe and it kept blowing internal fuses. I took him to small claims court to get my money back. I wont buy used now unless I can try the machine out first.

azcraig

[Paul Steiner]

New machines are nice especially if you need something that runs immediately. But new machines are very expensive and do not hold value.

Old machines are a good value if you can inspect them closely. I am very cautious about buying anything online that I can not inspect before purchasing. Sometimes used machines require an overhaul. I enjoy this, it allows I bond with the machine and make it my own.

[Alan DuBoff]

I prefer old vintage machines, the heavy industrial models, especially from the '40s. The WWII era machines were really something, IMO.

They can be hard to find, but worth digging up.

Most, but not all, of my woodworking machines are on my OWWM web page (http://www.owwm.com/Members/detail.aspx?id=3052).

Was just using the table saw, jointer, and scroll saw today! ;)

I'm not trying to convince you that vintage machines are for everyone, and most of mine are 3 phase, but I like them.

[Andrew Joiner]

Nice machines Alan. Thanks for showing us what can be done.

[Andrew Joiner]

Now it's when you say stuff like this that really makes me curious about trying old iron again.



hi Andrew

A band saw is one tool that old iron really works nice with. I have had the new Italian band saws and they don't hold a candle to my moak super 36 inch direct drive band saw.

.

best wishes
lou


Thanks for your comments lou. If I get "Big Bandsaw Fever" I may ask you to tell about the time you got burned on an old iron deal. Ok maybe you better tell me soon cause my temperatures rising!

[Myk Rian]

When I refitted my shop I bought the TS, planer, spindle sander, and DP new.
After that I kept an eye out for a used jointer. It's a 6" but I found a Jet blue for $300. If you buy used, know what you're looking for and current prices. Check it out good. If it doesn't seem quite right, look elsewhere for what you want.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Now it's when you say stuff like this that really makes me curious about trying old iron again.





Thanks for your comments lou. If I get "Big Bandsaw Fever" I may ask you to tell about the time you got burned on an old iron deal. Ok maybe you better tell me soon cause my temperatures rising!


Don't mean to throw fuel on the fire, oh ok, maybe a little...

It's really a cool feeling to see one of those one ton cast iron monsters do what they do. They are as subtle as an elephant, but wow, can they dance! The first time I fired mine up, it scared me a little! Of course it has become a trusted cornerstone of my shop now. Tried it out on a 14" diameter hunk of locust firewood first, and we haven't looked back! The locust is now a swing, and the Oliver reliably resaws anything that needs it. These classy old tools just have character.

[Chip Lindley]

Please remember that some NEW machines are not *Ready To Rumble* right out of the crate. Many threads here have been dedicated to the woes of newly delivered machines.

I have bought 2 new machines in my lifetime. A Crapsman tablesaw in the '70s, and a nice 14" Delta bandsaw back in the 80s. I still own the bandsaw. My TS, RAS's, planer, jointers, drill presses, disc, belt and drum sanders, 6 shapers, and DC were all bought used. Some are ancient, some are contemporary, yet I paid only a fraction of sticker price for most of them.

There are many bargains out there if you know what you are looking for. If you are mechanically inclined and enjoy tinkering, old machines are FUN! BUT, if you had rather enjoy a new tool and its attendant price tag, the choice is yours.

[John Sanford]

Used vs New, the perennial consumers conundrum! :D

I've bought two used power tools, got another one as settlement for a debt. The PM 54 6" Jointer I got for $400, a steal, although it has a balky adjusting wheel on the infeed table. I also picked up a Jet 14" BS-MW, i.e. a 14" metal/woodworking bandsaw, for $100. When I moved and downsized for storage, the bandsaw went to the Salvation Army Thrift store. While I did get my $100 of value out of it, it had so many problems, some due to Jet's design, others due to wear and tear, that it wasn't worth keeping around.

Now, one thing that's being overlooked is that it's possible to get NEW tools at a great price as well. I got my Delta Contractor's Saw brand spanking new for < $400, about 8 years ago. Other's here have often gotten similar or better deals on new iron as well.

Of course, when folks usually refer to "old iron", they're referring to professional and/or industrial grade equipment. Stuff where the venerable Unisaw and PM66 are entry-level.

As noted, the used vs. new has some trade-offs. For me, the time spent chasing down used usually isn't worth the savings. Given the terrible climate here for the trades right now, I might be singing a different tune, if said climate hadn't put me outta work two months ago as well!

Ahh, another perennial conundrum: either have time, and no money, or money, but no time! :(

[lou sansone]

Don't mean to throw fuel on the fire, oh ok, maybe a little...

It's really a cool feeling to see one of those one ton cast iron monsters do what they do. They are as subtle as an elephant, but wow, can they dance! The first time I fired mine up, it scared me a little! Of course it has become a trusted cornerstone of my shop now. Tried it out on a 14" diameter hunk of locust firewood first, and we haven't looked back! The locust is now a swing, and the Oliver reliably resaws anything that needs it. These classy old tools just have character.


steve
can you post some photos of you and the oliver ? one of the things that really is not well understood when it comes to these vintage band saws is how ergonomic they are. the tables are at just the perfect height and size for real work.

thanks
Lou

[Sue Wise]

I buy used when I can. So far my best used purchases through CL are my Grizzly cabinet table saw, Jet 1642 lathe and Rigid sander. If you are patient and know the price you want to pay, it can work to your advantage. I am only willing to pay 50%-60% of new price for a machine without warranty no matter how many hours it has been used. Many sellers are asking too much, but some are in the ball park. I usually get there, take a look at the machine and then ask them if they are willing to sell if for xxx amount, with the cash being visible in my hand.

[Kirk Poore]

I buy used when I can. So far my best used purchases through CL are my Grizzly cabinet table saw, Jet 1642 lathe and Rigid sander. If you are patient and know the price you want to pay, it can work to your advantage. I am only willing to pay 50%-60% of new price for a machine without warranty no matter how many hours it has been used. Many sellers are asking too much, but some are in the ball park. I usually get there, take a look at the machine and then ask them if they are willing to sell if for xxx amount, with the cash being visible in my hand.

Like Sue, I've almost always bought used. A careful, in-person inspection (particularly with a running demonstration) will avoid most problems, and cash in hand is a powerful argument.

I originally was very hesitant to tackle some of the repairs that many used machines need. But with some help & guidance I learned to do most bearing changes and rewiring, which are the two most frequent items that older machines need (not counting cleaning and painting).

You have to have the right temperment, I think. I'm not in it to rebuild machines, I'm in it for the woodworking. But I'm not afraid to invest a little time to wind up with a top-notch machine for a bottom end price.

Kirk

[Steve Rozmiarek]

steve
can you post some photos of you and the oliver ? one of the things that really is not well understood when it comes to these vintage band saws is how ergonomic they are. the tables are at just the perfect height and size for real work.

thanks
Lou


My pleasure, check back this evening.

[Eric DeSilva]

+1 on buying used. With the exception of my DC system, the stationary tools in my shop are all used--mostly lightly used. The trick with used is having the patience to wait for the right deal. If you are talking about "old arn," the wait may be longer, and for many, that may be intolerable.

That said, in the DC area, I've seen at least two *big* bandsaws on CL in the last six months--one a 30" Doall, the other a 36"... Also probably seen a half-dozen 20"+ BS on CL as well. You might also check some auction sites for big equipment--not eBay--stuff like local liquidators.

[Noah Vig]

Buying used seems to be a lot easier if one lives near a big city. Slim pickings for me and when deals do come up within reasonable driving distance, the tool is usually sold or others are first in line. Trying to find used tools can take a lot of time though and can get old.

So most of my tools were bought new taking advantages of discounts and rebates. Large tools I bought used are a Bridgewood PBS-540 bandsaw and a Powermatic 24 shaper. The shaper is the only tool I purchased off of craigslist.

[Jeff Duncan]

Lots of good advice here, I'll add another vote for used equipment. Well that is if it's industrial, smaller stuff like contractors saws and 6" jointers are so cheap new, it's not a huge savings usually to buy used. My industrial stuff on the other hand averages out to about 33 cents on the dollar.
I've bought a fair amount of new stuff, from my first Ryobi tablesaw, to a Powermatic 21 spindle line boring machine. I've never been as happy with my new purchases as when I get a good deal on older equipment. The most important thing you'll need to shop for used equipment is patience. Also you have to realize the 'true value' of equipment. Someone said earlier something to the effect that they had never seen an Oliver jointer sell for what they would consider a reasonable price. I see them sell for reasonable prices at least on a monthly basis. You can't compare a 16" Oliver 166 to any Grizzly 16". The closest you'll get new is a Northfield which will be many times more expensive.
Not everyone needs the size and quality in their shops which is why there's no easy answer. But my opinion is if your going for bigger go used, if it's basemant shop size stuff then new may be better.

good luck,
JeffD

[Carlos Alden]

I've been perusing this thread and thought I'd throw in this link to a local CL listing, just for fun:

http://spokane.craigslist.org/tls/973398988.html

I have a small jointer that's sufficient for my needs, but this is the kind of thing that would be a blast to refurbish and get working.

Carlos

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Lots of good advice here, I'll add another vote for used equipment. Well that is if it's industrial, smaller stuff like contractors saws and 6" jointers are so cheap new, it's not a huge savings usually to buy used. My industrial stuff on the other hand averages out to about 33 cents on the dollar.
I've bought a fair amount of new stuff, from my first Ryobi tablesaw, to a Powermatic 21 spindle line boring machine. I've never been as happy with my new purchases as when I get a good deal on older equipment. The most important thing you'll need to shop for used equipment is patience. Also you have to realize the 'true value' of equipment. Someone said earlier something to the effect that they had never seen an Oliver jointer sell for what they would consider a reasonable price. I see them sell for reasonable prices at least on a monthly basis. You can't compare a 16" Oliver 166 to any Grizzly 16". The closest you'll get new is a Northfield which will be many times more expensive.
Not everyone needs the size and quality in their shops which is why there's no easy answer. But my opinion is if your going for bigger go used, if it's basemant shop size stuff then new may be better.

good luck,
JeffD

Well Jeff, I'm supposed to be working, but this is more fun...

I posted about the Oliver jointer, and to clarify, when I was looking, I did not see a wider one sell for what I considered a bargain price. Less then 12" was selling pretty affordably, but the bigger stuff I was looking at was bringing much bigger money although not nearly new prices. As I live in the middle of nowhere, location is also an issue, which greatly limits the tools I'm likely to be interested. Just putting my comments into perspective. Have a good evening,

[Steve Rozmiarek]

steve
can you post some photos of you and the oliver ? one of the things that really is not well understood when it comes to these vintage band saws is how ergonomic they are. the tables are at just the perfect height and size for real work.

thanks
Lou

Here you go Lou, my saw is a bit of a mutt, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thats a Laguna Driftmaster fence on it, and as you can see, the saw was a line belt machine, that has been converted to something more practical for my shop. Note the classy belt guard/trash can. Something I always get a kick out of is how quiet it is. The air moving makes a bit of noise, as does the blade, but not much else. The 14" Delta is louder I think.

I also posted a pinup of my little Austrian fling.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ok, so I am a dummy with photos, so here my newest toy, and a good argument for buying new. I have it set up for a goofy operation, you really don't want to know...

[Andrew Joiner]

Nice saw Steve. A $400 fence on a $400 bandsaw, that's a first. But I'm impressed. That means the saw must work really well or you wouldn't have put that fence on it.

How is the Driftmaster? I like the idea of a precise fence like that for slicing veneer. One crank and the fence moves 1/16th" right?

Your shop looks bigger than the 22'x24' you mentioned in another post. When you said you had all that machinery in a 22'x24' shop I pictured it very crowded. It's very organized.

[Rick Fisher]

I prefer really high quality used over import new. I restored a bandsaw recently, it took 5-6 months of spare time. It came from a factory and was pretty beat up. I bought it in an online auction, had I been present, I would have passed. :)

The only bidders where online bidders.. lol... I can laugh about it now. The bidders in the room all passed.. hmm..


http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/P1010472.jpg

Restoring is not for everyone. For me, its just like building a piece of furniture, something to take pride in. The differece is that few people will appreciate it (other than this motley crowd :) ) .. My wife doesnt see the beauty in a 1/2 ton bandsaw.. lol..

The idea of saving a big heavy saw from the scrap yard and having it in my garage is a thrill for me. If I had just bought it, It wouldnt mean nearly as much ..

[Bob Aquino]

Another vote for used. Much heavier built, smoother operation in general. May or may not take a lot of work to get operational but once you finish it, you will know the saw frontwards and backwards and nothing about it will mystify it you. This is my Delta Rockwell 20 inch saw that replaced a Delta 18" Taiwanese saw:

http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/7761-A.jpg

It uses a VFD to power the 3 phase motor. I get a saw with variable speed, a very big plus:

http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/7761-D.jpg
http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/7761-E.jpg

[Dale Morris]

Sue, I'm a newbie what is CL? I have seen other members reference to it but I don't know what youre refering to.


Thanks,
Dale

[Thomas Bank]

Likely referring to craigslist.org

I'm another used tool guy. But it definitely requires a certain mentality - an interest in tinkering around with things. In our club, there are those with stories of scores on old machinery and there are those that just look on in bewilderment, wondering why you don't just go out and buy new and be done with it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Nice saw Steve. A $400 fence on a $400 bandsaw, that's a first. But I'm impressed. That means the saw must work really well or you wouldn't have put that fence on it.

How is the Driftmaster? I like the idea of a precise fence like that for slicing veneer. One crank and the fence moves 1/16th" right?

Your shop looks bigger than the 22'x24' you mentioned in another post. When you said you had all that machinery in a 22'x24' shop I pictured it very crowded. It's very organized.

Andrew, I typed a response last night, thought I submitted, and went to bed. Apparently I missed a step, cause it's not here. I'll try again.

I like the Driftmaster. Accurate, really easy to adjust, and I do love the 1 turn = about 1/16". It's made for a narrower saw so it looks silly attached to my saw, and one of thee days I'll build an extension. I really like the drift adjustment and the beefy extrusion as well. Thats an 8" board I'm resawing, for perspective.

I've also tried to make the shop stretch to more then the 22'x24', but thats all I'm going to get out of it:(. Stuff is slowly finding places. There is still a stack of stuff, and a a shelving project in the making on the wall I didn't show. If I ever kick this blasted cold, I'll finish it.

Note the pallet jack. It's also the mobile base for the Felder, and a useful assistant for moving everything else. Good thing to have around, and it helps to be able to actually position tools to see how things fit.

Have a good evening,

Steve

[lou sansone]

Here you go Lou, my saw is a bit of a mutt, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thats a Laguna Driftmaster fence on it, and as you can see, the saw was a line belt machine, that has been converted to something more practical for my shop. Note the classy belt guard/trash can. Something I always get a kick out of is how quiet it is. The air moving makes a bit of noise, as does the blade, but not much else. The 14" Delta is louder I think.

I also posted a pinup of my little Austrian fling.


nice band saw.. a spokey !. must be a very early oliver. - looks good ..
thanks for posting the photos

lou

[willy young]

I guess I am at the extreme end with used tools. I prefer to find older stuff ,preferably before the 60s. My favorite is the old steamlined and art deco themed tools. Not necessary due to the looks but due to the durability and usefullness. I have quite a few of my dads old stuff. I also prefer to find basketcases and totally rebuild them. Tearing one completely down and rebuilding is as much enjoyment as using it when I am done. I found a few old items my dad had when I was cleaning out his barn after he died. My mom wanted it cleaned out and hauled off. I got an old delta lathe that nothing was loose,all rusted up. I also found a delta shaper which I rebuilt completely. I also have a powermatic planer,powermatic saw, craftsman bandsaw. I also have some vintage circular saws and drills. I even have one that is the first drill Black and decker sold for the homeowner. I bought a couple of new hand drills and have wore them out in no time. The old stuff to me is far better in quality and price. I have located a man that has a few scroll saws I and going to look at buying. I have a newer one now but its not the best. I plan on getting at least one and maybe all to fix up. So for me I prefer the old stuff. You can see a lot of mine at
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/569408649spoWff

The planer works good I just need to clean it and repaint it. I also plan to make a extension for my table saw and repaint/rework it as well. I forgot to add about the powermatic stuff. One of the reasons I really like those tools is that I live about 20 minutes from where the factory was before it was bought out by jet and left the country. I have a few family members that worked there and have been in there as a kid on a tour. They really did care about their stuff. heres a little bit of trivia on powermatic. After the Smith family who started the company sold out in the 60s? maybe they started a new one for metalworking tools. It is called Tennsmith and is still in business here. That factory is just about five minutes from there. So if you own or use tennsmith stuff your using tools made by the family that started powermatic.