Does 4/4 ever realistically yield 3/4 boards?

[Adam Cavaliere]

So I just purchased some 5 foot long 4/4 Red Oak. After jointing one of the faces it truly flat and then send it through the planer, I end up with around 11/16 on one board it was only 5/8.

I am going to be gluing up a lot of these to make a coffee table top, so the smallest thickness board will ultimately be the maximum thickness of the coffee table.

Should I expect this when using such long boards? I figure the smaller the board, the potential amount of wood taken off will be minimized. Should I have instead purchased 5/4 boards if I wanted a true 3/4" thickness?

[Russell Tribby]

Adam, it just depends on the individual stock. The amount of surface nicks/gouges that need to be planed out, the amount of twist, cupping, warping in the board will all play a role in determining the final thickness of your stock. Keep in mind that as you joint and plane you are exposing fresh wood that may move some more. If I have the time I typically get to within 1/16 - 1/8 of what I need and then let it sit for a few days. If the stock does move to the point of needing to be planed or jointed a little more I at least have some room to work with. I know it seems like a waste to buy 5/4 to get to an eventual thickness of 3/4 but that's just how it goes sometimes.

[Larry Edgerton]

Adam

Everything that Russell said and I will add that I will cut badly bowed stock to the aproximate length I will need for short parts, with an allowance for snipe, before I joint them. That way I minimize the amount of wood needed to be removed in the middle of the curve.

I didn't explain that very well, so if you don't understand I'll rethink it and try again.

Just as an example if I am making cabinets I could cut the styles to rough length firs, then joint, so I am only jointing a 3 foot curve instead of a , say 12 foot curve. Saves a lot of wood.

[John Keeton]

Adam, you could also beef up the edge by gluing up a 2-3" band around the perimeter of the top - I have even done this on the end grain and will careful grain direction match, it is hardly noticeable. Also, since it is a coffee table, it will likely go unnoticed anyway. This may help you save wasting the stock you have.

[Howard Acheson]

Yes, if the roughsawn board is straight and 1", you should be able to yield 13/16th in almost all cases. If you had the mill surface the wood, you would get 13/16 which is the standard for S2S hardwood.

Sounds like you need to practice jointing. Jointing is something that takes practice and experience. Get some cheap lumber and practice how and when to apply the pressure. While most end up making tapers, they should be minimal with practice.

[David DeCristoforo]

I would suggest that you are not getting very good stock. If you are buying 4/4 lumber that has been surfaced on both sides, you "should" be starting out with wood that is at least 13/16" thick. That only leaves 1/16" of "extra" thickness if you are targeting a "net" thickness of 3/4" But unless you are being impossibly picky about "how flat" your wood must be, you should be able to glue up a table top from your lumber without having to do much beyond edge jointing. Since you are capable of surfacing your material, why not buy your wood "in the rough"? Then you should be getting 4/4 material that starts out at a full inch thick. I am typically able to get 7/8" net out of 4/4/ rough stock. Unless, of course, I get material that has peen carelessly manufactured in which case there is no telling how much material will have to go to get flat boards. But I usually will not buy a second time from a vendor that delivers poorly manufactured material.

[Adam Cavaliere]

The only choice I had to choose between was either S4S red oak, S2S red oak. They didn't specify that it was S2S, but it obviously is since the average thickness is about 13/16. I don't think I have ever seen "rough stock" aside from the S2S.

I have found it very hard to get a length of 50" perfectly flat by only taking off 1/16 of an inch. I have found that there is at least a 1/8" variance from top to bottom. Maybe I'll try and be more picky about the wood I am selecting, but I thought I found some pretty straight boards.

As far as beeing impossibly picky about how flat it should be, I actually may be, and will take that into consideration when jointing my boards. Any tips on judging the flatness so I can avoid being too picky?

[Wade Lippman]

Yes, if the roughsawn board is straight and 1", you should be able to yield 13/16th in almost all cases. If you had the mill surface the wood, you would get 13/16 which is the standard for S2S hardwood.

Sounds like you need to practice jointing. Jointing is something that takes practice and experience. Get some cheap lumber and practice how and when to apply the pressure. While most end up making tapers, they should be minimal with practice.

I agree. I shoot for 13/16 to allow some sanding after glue ups; and usually get it. Not always, but usually.

One mistake is to try to flatten pieces larger than you need. Small pieces often require less to be removed.

But remember the 3/4" standard is pretty arbitrary. I just made a large cherry cabinet with undersized (maybe 3.5/4) wood I got for almost nothing at auction. Much of it wound up about 5/8" and it made no difference at all; as long as you remember what it is.

[David DeCristoforo]

One thing to keep in mind is that no boards will ever be "perfectly flat". It's just not the nature of wood and you can easily become obsessed to the point of frustration. When glueing table tops, I try and "average" the variations in the individual boards, "playing" with the arrangement so that the edges align as closely as I can get them while still maintaining a pleasing appearance. I rely on the table base to provide enough rigidity to allow me to pull the top flat when I attach it. Also, I may allow some miss-alignment on the underside of the top where it will not be seen in order to maximize the overall thickness of the top.

PS Where are you buying your wood?

[David Freed]

I would suggest that you are not getting very good stock.


I agree with David. I have dried and planed close to 100,000 bf of 4/4 lumber. I always expected to get 13/16" when I planed it. There were occasional miscuts that wouldn't make it, but not often. The cabinet shops I dealt with did no further surfacing; just cut to size and sand after assembling.

[Kevin Barnett]

It sounds to me like you are not starting with 4/4 boards that are 1&1/8" in the rough. I won't buy anything thinner. I typically buy from sawmills with large circle blades though. A properly operating bandsaw mill will require less clean-up IMO.

[Peter Quinn]

The material I buy, if not in the rough, is called 'Hit and miss planed', which means it has been passed through a double faced planer (one head over, one head under) which takes off most of the rough and makes it easy to read the grain. The material is thicknessed to exactly 15/16", not almost, not something close, but exactly 15/16". It is not flattened, so it is my job to pick boards I estimate will flatten and finish plane at my required thickness, typically 3/4" or 13/16" from 4/4 stock. I have picked up boards I would have trouble flattening over 5' to 9/16" due to cup and twist, and other boards require little more than a single pass over the jointer.

When I am jointing pre-surfaced material, I scratch a series of diagonal pencil lines across the face of the boards from one end to the other which gives me a reference to chart where material is being removed and what areas are becoming flat. With some species is is difficult to tell otherwise how your jointing efforts are progressing and it is easy to take too much material off at the jointer and lose your desired final thickness there. Not every 4/4 board will flatten over its length. You must sight the boards carefully on edge, sort of close one eye and use the two ends as winding points to gauge a boards flatness, or bring a straight rip of plywood or a long level with you to pick flat material for those longer runs.

I feel S3S or S4S being sold 13/16" is not really meant to be flattened. It is a utility product being sold to millwork shops to run through a multi head molder where it will finish at 3/4", or for face frame material for kitchen cabinets that will be processed by machines and secured to plywood boxes, and in these cases the finished lengths are short and extreme flatness is not a requirement. It is surfaced to 13/16" so the end user will have less chips and waste to deal with. I encourage you to find a source for either rough lumber or at least hit and miss planed lumber for your fine wood working endeavors. It will make your wood working much more enjoyable and avoid the frustration of trying to surface material for custom projects using stock meant for generic mass production methods.

For table tops of any size I prefer to finish at 7/8" and start in this case with 5/4 material. As David noted above the quest for perfect flatness in a table top is often unnecessary. Obviously there are limits, and the material should all be the thickness before glue up. But you are working with wood and it rarely is or stays perfectly flat. If the finished surface is smooth and even and level enough to hold a cup of coffee or a book you should be fine. I am frankly more concerned that parts intended for joinery like table legs and aprons are flat and square than the tops.

[Adam Cavaliere]

*note - I responded before reading Peter's response.

So are you guys saying that if I purchase S2S lumber, normally I should just plan on jointing the edge and then glue it up?

I guess I have been mistaken then as it normally has seemed that a lot of the boards I have purchased have had some slight bend in them, at least enough to warrant using the jointer on the face and then squaring it off with the planer. Everything I have used so far has been S2S.

BTW - I purchase my wood from Owl Lumber in Des Plaines, IL.

[Sonny Edmonds]

A couple of thoughts, Adam...
You could buy S4S, ready to use wood. That way you can see all of it and pick what you want.
Or, you could use cabinet grade Plywood faced with a full lamination of the oak of your choice. (Not the usual stuff from the box store)
Then rim it like John suggested.
I've made things from solid woods, heirloom things, stuff I wanted to be handed down hopefully.
But the reality is that about 99 folks out of 100 don't have a blessed clue about Real VS: Other wood construction.
99 of them shop at Ikea or WalMart. And think that paper on particle board is beautiful!
Sometimes we can get too caught up in using "solid wood" for projects.
When it is a very special project, I'll go for S4S, bit the extra cost, get exactly the wood I want for the project and even have an idea of the lay of the grain in relation to the project in mind, all before it is loaded.
At least S2S where it has two faces planed to see.
Less waste that way. And way less frustration! You can see what you are getting, or rejecting, at the yard. :rolleyes:

[William OConnell]

*note - I responded before reading Peter's response.

So are you guys saying that if I purchase S2S lumber, normally I should just plan on jointing the edge and then glue it up?

I guess I have been mistaken then as it normally has seemed that a lot of the boards I have purchased have had some slight bend in them, at least enough to warrant using the jointer on the face and then squaring it off with the planer. Everything I have used so far has been S2S.

BTW - I purchase my wood from Owl Lumber in Des Plaines, IL.
As usual Peter and David have given sound thought and past it along to you.
I have to say this just from my own experience. I often buy s3s ( cost me an extra 35 cents a ft.) from my hardwood guy and have to do next to nill other than rip the 4th side. Any surfacing (ie: handplaning or sanding) that needs to be done I do after assembly.
The whole purpose, at least for me in buying s2s or s3s is so i don't have to do that face jointing that you seem to be doing. When I buy 4/4 and ask for s2s I know that it will be less than 4/4 but no where near 11/16ths. They try and get me 7/8ths and if its a wee bit less they tell me. I guess i'm lucky to have these guys neary and have such a good relationship with them. Most of my 4/4 red oak I get is 14' and don't have the problems you seem to be having. Maye they're improperly surfacing. Sounds like it to me.

[Joe Chritz]

Quality plywood with a wide banding is a very real alternative for a table top. I just did two of them (L shaped 48x74") and they look very good.

Trying to get to 3/4 on a long board is pretty unlikely unless you have really good stock when starting out at 13/16".

I personally would be inclined to get 5/4 rough, mill it flat and use whatever thickness that may be. Most of the lumber I get is from bandsaw mills and from a small kiln operator and it tends to run heavy.

Joe

[Chip Lindley]

Adam, ask Owl Lumber if they will sell you rough 4/4 KD red oak!! No surfacing at all. If you can pick the boards, pick the straightest for your use! Then, when you cut to size, joint and plane, you should end up with what you desire!

Rough 4/4 should cost much less than S2S,etc. AND, you will have much more stock thickness to work with. It doesn't hurt to ask! If the vendor insists on selling you S2S, then YOU INSIST on picking your own boards! Insist on getting what you want! It is your $$$, afterall!

Straight/Flat lumber = A HappierNewYear!!