Mass producing cuts

[Rick Lucrezi]

I need to cut from the end of a 2x6 (cedar) a 1.5 x 2.75. The cut leaves an L which interlocks with an identical piece and then stacked one on top of another. What I need is a quick way to cut the L. I narrowed it down to a jig on the bandsaw but it is a 2 step process. If the cuts were square, I could make 2 passes on the saw with one jig. With the L I need to make the first cut then drop a stop in the jig to make the short cut. If your not tottaly confused and think you might have an idea for a quicker way I am open. I have a contract to build some boxes and I will be making thousands of cuts, all the same. Eventually, I will have a custom tool built, but for now I need to use what I have. What do ya think?

[J.R. Rutter]

How long is your 2 x 6?

[Rick Lucrezi]

How long is your 2 x 6?


They run 2' 3' 4'.

[Radek Kowalski]

If I understand everything correctly, routering the pieces should work. Straight bit on a router table, and just run all the pieces against the fence. Hope that helps.

[J.R. Rutter]

If you have a shaper, you could set up with a stack of staggered straight cutters. Depth of cut would be 1.5", so 125 to 150 mm diameter cutters would be about right on a 1-1/4" spindle. The Height of 2.75" would require multiple cutters though, so tooling costs might be high.

Other than that, maybe a second bandsaw would be in order. Set one up with a crosscut sled. The other would handle the short rip cut. Set one up with a custom table mounted above the factory table with cutout so that the waste part can drop out the back of the saw into a bag or trash can. It would take some tinkering to get a repeatable drop with no jamming, but I bet it can be done.

[Larry Edgerton]

You didn't say how precise they have to be, but as it is cedar I assume it is not super critical.

I would be inclined to do them with a skillsaw and a sled in batches of maybe a dozen at a time. Do one cut laying down and one standing up using a sled. You don't say what kind of tools you have at your disposal, but I remember you saying you build decks, so probably less stationary tools?

Anyway, I have just about everything a tool junkie could ask for [except a wide belt :(]and the is probably how I would do it anyway. Any more than about a dozen, depending on quality of stock and they get to hard to get lined up in the clamps. Nail or screw some scrap on a bench in a perfect square to help you get them lined up to clamp. I do birdsmouths/tails this way with a 16" Makita.

[Mike Ross]

I sketched what I think you are trying to make. Hundreds of A and B.

Is this correct?

Mike Ross

[Sue Wise]

It seems to me that doing them on a table saw with a dado stack would be the quickest and most precise way to do them.

-Sue

[Karl Brogger]

Shaper, and a coper clamp.

[Rick Lucrezi]

Going to try to attach a pic of the prototype.

I thought about using a shaper, conclusion is the amount of sawdust would be ridiculous.

My outside sales guy said another company used two slill saws mounted together with a foot switch to make the cut in one pass. They drop the 2x into a clamped jig and cut.

I realized last nite that the gang cut idea would be quickest untill I can have an air operated cutter built.
Much like Larry Edgerton mentioned with bird mouth cuts on rafter tails. Its been a while but I mass cut a roof one time. Took a bit to set up but the outcome was dead on.
So for now the quickest I can come up with is to lay out the pieces on my 5x8 table, make an adjustable jig to lock then into place, clamp the mess and make 2 passes with a worm drive. Not a big fan of cutting into the end grain like that but with a jig for the saw it should work ok.
The band saw requires me to cut one, stack the pile, reset the jig and then cut the second cut. I need to make a test run but I think the table mounted idea is quickest. Still open to other ideas though. 1000 minds are better than 1.

[Jim Becker]

How about a rough cut with a saber saw (the heavier long blades will cut square with one of the better tools, such as the Bosch or Festool) and then template routing the exact profile with a jig?

[Rick Lucrezi]

How about a rough cut with a saber saw (the heavier long blades will cut square with one of the better tools, such as the Bosch or Festool) and then template routing the exact profile with a jig?

I like the idea of a jig on the router table. I racked my brain, and its the same as the band saw. Is there a way to make a jig that would allow me to make both cuts with out changing the jig? If so the band saw would be fastest. The router would have the sawdust issue but not as bad as a shaper, and no question the shaper would be fastest, so matbe I need to look at dust collection. You know, even a shaper, that large a cut in one pass would be dicy. Im no expert on using a shaper but to cut in one pass would require alot of power and I would want to have a system that held the wood solid so as not to rip it out of my hand. If some one with a shaper could give some input on that I like the "idea". With the router idea, how many cuts could you make before the bit needs replaced? Even the new four cutter head freuds would get hot mass cutting, and I would think one would want to use a small profile to minimze the size of the cut for resistance purposes. I have a 3.25 hp Freud saw mounted router and would think after a while it would burn up. That would shoot the profit margin to hell.:eek:

[J.R. Rutter]

For the shaper, a custom tenon sled would hold them just fine. Pneumatic clamps down and against the backer board. Continuous fence above the cut for the uncut end to ride on. Staggered cutters use less HP than a taller rebate cutter. It's not sawdust, it's mulch!

As for the skill saws, how about building a trough (either horizontal or vertical) with a quick and dirty long clamp along one side. Fill the trough with 8 ft worth of 2 x 6. Pinch clamp the trough tight. Run your double skill saw cut down one edge (either 2 separate saws mounted to guides, or one double rig attached to a guide on the trough with spacers to bring all different 2x6 lengths up to the same level on top.). Release and unload.

[Rick Lucrezi]

For the shaper, a custom tenon sled would hold them just fine. Pneumatic clamps down and against the backer board. Continuous fence above the cut for the uncut end to ride on. Staggered cutters use less HP than a taller rebate cutter. It's not sawdust, it's mulch!

As for the skill saws, how about building a trough (either horizontal or vertical) with a quick and dirty long clamp along one side. Fill the trough with 8 ft worth of 2 x 6. Pinch clamp the trough tight. Run your double skill saw cut down one edge (either 2 separate saws mounted to guides, or one double rig attached to a guide on the trough with spacers to bring all different 2x6 lengths up to the same level on top.). Release and unload.

The trough idea is similar to what I am leaning towards. I am curious about your idea for the "double rig".?

[Greg Sznajdruk]

I have in the past made similar cuts and the RAS with a dado set was the fastest method for plowing out large volume of wood with repeatable accuracy. If you don't have a RAS they can be found relatively inexpensively. After your done with your project it makes a good boat anchor.

Greg

[Russell Tribby]

Rick, I like the idea of making the initial cut with a circular saw. You could stack 20-30 or more on edge and clamp them together, set up a guide rail and make the initial cut with the circular saw. Set your bandsaw fence up to cut the perpendicular cut. It would just be a matter of pushing the board into the blade up to the depth of the first cut. You could set up a stop block on the fence to help speed things up so you don't have to eye it. Does this make sense? I don't know how fast it would be but the amount of sawdust will be minimal, especially if you have your circ saw hooked up to a vac. You'll just be left with a lot of building blocks for the kids!

[Rick Lucrezi]

Whats a RAS?

[Russell Tribby]

Whats a RAS?

Radial Arm Saw

[Rick Lucrezi]

radial arm saw. Have one in storage. How many blades can I stack on one. The cut would be 2.75 wide and 1.5 deep. Sounds quick, lots of wood chips but quick.

[J.R. Rutter]

The trough idea is similar to what I am leaning towards. I am curious about your idea for the "double rig".?

Have someone weld up an aluminum right angle (maybe a u shaped profile would hug the 2x6 end better) large enough to bolt a skil saw onto each face - staggered so that the blades don't touch. Plunge the blades down through to the correct depth. Coming up with a support/guide would be the tricky part. No fun to lift a double saw around.

[Jim Becker]

radial arm saw. Have one in storage. How many blades can I stack on one. The cut would be 2.75 wide and 1.5 deep. Sounds quick, lots of wood chips but quick.

This is generally done with a dado set, assuming the arbor of your particular RAS can accommodate one. You'll still make multiple cuts, however.

[Sonny Edmonds]

Mass production, I love it!
For now, I think I would set it up for a one-two operation.
Do one of the cuts to as many pieces as you care to batch. Then do the do the second cut to the batch.
I would likely sort the stock into like sizes, 2', 3', and 4' to start.

Step One:
Then use Quick Clamps, or Bessy clamps, to clamp a bunch into a block of stock. Say 10 pieces, for example. On a table with a jig I can just pack a pile together into a squared bunch. This block has to be very squared and the ends exactingly even. I'm thinking 24" size clamps here.
Apply clamps, move to the TS already set for the 1.5 inch deep cut with the fence set at your 2.75 inch length. (I know, everybody is screaming Trapped cut! Trapped cut! Shut up and listen!)
You have a block of stock. Say 15" in these clamps. You are going to make your first cut so it is a cross-cut operation to the grain of the wood. You will need a substantial push block to follow the stock in case of any of the waste breaking free and wanting to bind or kick back. Say a 2.5" X 4 or 6" high with a good pusher like a cement float for a handle. This pusher will merely be a safety operator that goes far enough to get the stock clear of the blade, then retreat back to the starting position fully under control. It could also be a shoe over the fence. It's entire purpose is to make sure anything that might go wrong stays away from kicking back at you.
Once this initial cross-cut is executed, that block of stock goes to a holding bin for the rip operation later.
You continue with the cross-cut operation until you have a batch big enough, or you are bored enough, to move to a ripping operation on your band saw.

Getting a picture here yet? One machine is doing a single, safe, fast operation cross-cutting stock. Step 1 in prep.
A batch of XXX number of 2' stock is neatly stacked into a holding sled, box, or pallet with a 1.5" cross-cut in the side of the individual boards.

Step two:
You have this stock from step one with your cross-cut in it. Now we remove the waste block on the band saw.
Set your fence 1.5 inches from the outside of your kerf. You want an exacting 1.5 inch deep cut, maybe less depending on how smooth the ending removed area has to be for this parts.
Clamp a stop on the table for the finished pieces as a stop for depth of the band saw cut, 2.60". It could even be a jig that clamps down to the table made of sheet stock (MDF, ply, PB, etc.)
The fence is the guide, the stop is the depth of rip, the waste travels along the fence and is expelled off the edge of the table and can drop into a container down a short slide. Think drum or box here.
The pieces are fed along the fence into the saw. When they hit the stop the waste stays there and is pushed ahead by the next piece eventually dropping off the outside edge, bye bye.
The finished stock is in your hand to set to your right on a short walled
L-bench in a long stack with the cut-out up (or down) but neatly stacked.
The uncut stock is on an L-bench at your left.
Your left hand grabs a board, sets it on the Band Saw table as your right hand holds it to the fence and feeds it into the saw.
The finished piece is put to the right by the right hand as the left is bringing in the next piece.
You'll find a cadence to all this and it will get faster and faster. You'll be spitting out hundreds to thousands of these a day.

If you get bored, hire a couple of young bucks to do each station and supervise it. Provide head sets with music even. You'll find a beat that will work fine with the cadence.
And those cut out pieces? Those are your inventory checking items, your proof of count. They can be firewood, or sold for stock for some other operation.
The important part is they aren't wasted as chips or saw dust.

Now ask me how I can turn 20 pens a day. But that is another story... :rolleyes:

I can even see sleds for these operations with air operated clamping on them. But don't ask about my air operated clamping table for gluing. That's yet another story... :rolleyes:

Crazy? Yep! Crazy like a fox! ;)

[Rick Lucrezi]

Sonny, I need to write an assembly instruction sheet for the boxes. I nominate you!!

[John Sanford]

Sonny's scheme is pretty much what I had in mind. Two different fixed setups on two different machines. Heck, if you have access to a plastic banding machine, you can just band your stock groups together (say, 4 pieces each), one band just an inch behind the cut zone, another band about 8" from that. Batch the crosscuts on the TS, then when done with those, take your stacks of bundles over to the BS and do them, still bundled.

You may even be able to do the bundles up in the same lots as you're delivering them to the customer (fer instance, a pair of 2' and a pair of 4', to make a rectangle), and save yourself the "packaging" later.

[Charles Seehuetter Panama City]

I like Sonny's step #1 on using the table saw But I think I'd also use it for the second step. Build a jig like the one I just built for raised panel doors and cut like this. Sorry the pictures are not very clear. I just set it up using a few 2X4 scraps I had handy just to give you the idea of what I'm talking about.

105099

The jig rides on the Bies fence. With an infeed table you could cut a large stack at the same time. More clamps may be needed. and the cutoffs are not trapped between the jig and the blade.

105100

Chuck

[Russell Tribby]

Sonny's got the right idea, it's what I was trying to explain but he did a much better job. I still think it would be safer and just as fast, if not faster, to cut them with a circular saw as opposed to using the table saw.

[Rick Lucrezi]

the banding idea is cool. I was going to band them for shipping but the buyer wants a cardboard box. The idea about a braket with two circ saws is exactly how another guy does a similar product. His set up allows him to crank them out pretty quick. His stock runs up to 8 feet.

I am leaning toward the shaper idea righ now. Did some more research. It is the fastest idea I have looked at and would be the most cost effective. I doubt that I will be able to have it up and running for the first batch.

So for now what seems "quickest" is gang cuttining. i will make 2 jigs that act as the guide for the end cut and a stop to line up all the pieces, those will lay on the table and the stock will drop into them. I can cut 64 pieces at a time which is 16 boxes, the table has built in clamps and with a stop clamped to the long side of the table, I can clamp the whole mess together with out any bar clamps. It will take two saws, a 8 1/4 circ at 2 3/4 depth to make the top cut with a home made track saw guide, and a 7 1/4 circ to make the end cut using the stop guide. The whole thing from stacked lumber to the slider for length cut to final cut on the table is under 20 minutes. So thats a minute and fifteen seconds each, for that stage. If I hire a helper I can cut that time nearly in half, but unless I get orders of a thousand boxes at a time it might not be worth the extra help. I will have to wait and see. Looks like good money maker but factory assembly line work is not my favorite idea of wood working. But if it pays the bills.

[Karl Brogger]

If you do use a shaper to make the cut, I think I would rough cut each piece with a jigsaw. Just make a template to mark it out and cut it semi close. You'll be removing a rediculous amount of material if you're doing it all at once, and if you have to make multiple passes you'll be wasting alot of time. While you'll spend time making the rough cut, it'll go quick with something as soft as cedar. Less chance of tearout & less sawdust to deal with too.

[Matt Schell]

I also like sonny's batch cut method but I too would prefer to use a rail guided circular saw or rail guided router to make the cuts. With a dedicated router in a custom sled on an specifically engineered table you could make tons of cuts in no time. Of course designing and building the setup may take a couple of weeks... months... years...

[Matt Schell]

I just thought of another idea. How about making the cross cut by batch cutting them with a guide and a circular saw and then using a jig and a jig saw to quickly and accurately make each rip cut to remove the waste individually.

[Todd Crawford]

I would make a modified set of saw horses - sort of. I would build them at such an angle that you could access both cuts from the same posistion. The boards would rest in the cradle (saw horse) and be able to clamp the entire lenght of boards - 20, 30 however many you want to cut at one time stacked on edge. A guide on the edge face would set you up for one cut and a guide on the end face would set you up for the other cut. You would need two saws set at the correct depth, but you would essentially walk down one side making the edge cut, then pick up the other saw and walk back down the other side making the end cut.

[Andrew Joiner]

I'd use a table saw.Push the 1.5" deep cut thru with a chunk of 4x4. Push on the bottom of the stock as you feed,use one hand to keep the stock vertical. The higher up on the stock you push the more tippy it gets.

Wax the table and practice with the blade cranked down. I have made cuts like this on the end of stock up to 8' long.

Ganging and clamping would make it less tippy, but I bet it would be slower and less accurate. It takes time to get say 10-2x6's all flush. Of course they might vary up to 1/16" in width too.

I'd time both ways but I think cutting each piece individually would be fastest and most accurate.

[J.R. Rutter]

Here's a ready made production solution:

http://www.jgmachinery.com/equipment/itemDetail.php?itemID=SC099452

I run a CTD D45 mitering saw in my shop. It will run all day every day no problem. This toe notcher is for doing toe kick cuts on cabinet ends. Looks like it would make your cut in one stroke. I believe that the fences adjust. The blades are staggered so they don't run into one another. Handle each piece once after cutting to length. The scrap falls down onto a chute and out the side for collection. If this is a long term contract/process, I would be all over the net looking for one of these.

I've dealt with J&G Machinery on big equipment, they are good people.

[Robby Tacheny]

I would make a table saw sled for this and just do them one at a time. Flip the board up vertical and make first cut. Flip the board over and put it on top of a raised piece for the second cut. I don't think flipping the board 90 degrees would be too bad unless you have excessively long boards.

Otherwise, why not 4 passes with a Dado stack?

Beez

[M. A. Espinoza]

Variation's of this setup gets my vote for a one-man shop. Sounds like you're headed in that direction. Mostly loading and unloading the rig instead of constant push-pull at a machine.

If its thousands of cuts any operation that does small batches or individual pieces is a good recipe for repetitive motion injury.

Good luck, sounds like a nice cash-flow job.




I would make a modified set of saw horses - sort of. I would build them at such an angle that you could access both cuts from the same posistion. The boards would rest in the cradle (saw horse) and be able to clamp the entire lenght of boards - 20, 30 however many you want to cut at one time stacked on edge. A guide on the edge face would set you up for one cut and a guide on the end face would set you up for the other cut. You would need two saws set at the correct depth, but you would essentially walk down one side making the edge cut, then pick up the other saw and walk back down the other side making the end cut.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I need to cut from the end of a 2x6 (cedar) a 1.5 x 2.75. The cut leaves an L which interlocks with an identical piece and then stacked one on top of another. What I need is a quick way to cut the L. I narrowed it down to a jig on the bandsaw but it is a 2 step process. If the cuts were square, I could make 2 passes on the saw with one jig. With the L I need to make the first cut then drop a stop in the jig to make the short cut. If your not tottaly confused and think you might have an idea for a quicker way I am open. I have a contract to build some boxes and I will be making thousands of cuts, all the same. Eventually, I will have a custom tool built, but for now I need to use what I have. What do ya think?

Hi Rick.
You can build a custom cutting station in one to two hours.
A cross cut table with one stop.
A custom bridge ( sled) to run your router and your circular saw without
moving the wood.
I use similar ways and methods to rout and cut to size thousands of pieces in few hours.
If you need more info, let me know.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Another vote for using a stacked dado on a radial arm saw. It would be a straight 90* cut. A well thought out stop block (allow for chip clearance) and you are set. It's simple and IMHO safe. It's like every other power tool. It is inherently dangerous. Some operators make it totally unsafe--just as some operators make anything powered by electricity or gasoline unsafe.

[Rick Lucrezi]

Here's a ready made production solution:

http://www.jgmachinery.com/equipment/itemDetail.php?itemID=SC099452

I run a CTD D45 mitering saw in my shop. It will run all day every day no problem. This toe notcher is for doing toe kick cuts on cabinet ends. Looks like it would make your cut in one stroke. I believe that the fences adjust. The blades are staggered so they don't run into one another. Handle each piece once after cutting to length. The scrap falls down onto a chute and out the side for collection. If this is a long term contract/process, I would be all over the net looking for one of these.

I've dealt with J&G Machinery on big equipment, they are good people.

Oh yea baby. Thanks. That is the perfect tool. I knew there had to be something like that. I will start looking for one. I can have 3 phase in the shop for 1500 but maybe I will find a 240 single some where.
There was a post about repetive motion fatique and thats for real. The only draw back to the whole thing. There is another step in the process but I need to keep that a secret for now.:)

If I make a million, I will remember your input:D

Thanks again Rick

[Jack Wilson50]

I need to cut from the end of a 2x6 (cedar) a 1.5 x 2.75. The cut leaves an L which interlocks with an identical piece and then stacked one on top of another. What I need is a quick way to cut the L. I narrowed it down to a jig on the bandsaw but it is a 2 step process. If the cuts were square, I could make 2 passes on the saw with one jig. With the L I need to make the first cut then drop a stop in the jig to make the short cut. If your not tottaly confused and think you might have an idea for a quicker way I am open. I have a contract to build some boxes and I will be making thousands of cuts, all the same. Eventually, I will have a custom tool built, but for now I need to use what I have. What do ya think?

Rick,

If you have a sled for a TS you could make a stop that would be set far enough to the left of the blade to make the 2.75" cut. The stop would be made from 1.25" stock. It would also have a fence tall enough to support the 2 x 6 when you flip it 90 degrees to make the 1.5" cut. You could even have bench clamp mounted to the tall fench to help hold the board. I think this would be pretty qucik, just to passes on the TS and mimimun dust.

Hope this helps.

Jack

[Rick Lucrezi]

Here's a ready made production solution:

http://www.jgmachinery.com/equipment/itemDetail.php?itemID=SC099452

I run a CTD D45 mitering saw in my shop. It will run all day every day no problem. This toe notcher is for doing toe kick cuts on cabinet ends. Looks like it would make your cut in one stroke. I believe that the fences adjust. The blades are staggered so they don't run into one another. Handle each piece once after cutting to length. The scrap falls down onto a chute and out the side for collection. If this is a long term contract/process, I would be all over the net looking for one of these.

I've dealt with J&G Machinery on big equipment, they are good people.


Found them from 3000 used to 28k for new CNC type. All are 3 phase.

[John Lucas]

From my view of your picture, you are making a half alp joint on the width dimension. That is a lot of wood chips if you use a dado, router or shaper.

The easiest and safest is the band saw. A simple series of cuts. One setup.

[M. A. Espinoza]

Found them from 3000 used to 28k for new CNC type. All are 3 phase.

Depending on the contract a dedicated machine is hard to beat. Especially if the contract allows you to hire someone with young joints to feed the machine while you use your skills to continue to line up jobs.

But then sometimes its not bad to have a job that lets your brain cool off while you "go robot" for a while.