Format Saw (by KUFO) is it OK?

[Gary Curtis]

I'm making a decision on my first Table Saw. Torn between the Canadian-made General T50 and the Kufo Sliding Table saw.

Does anyone have knowledge of the Kufo, or of any saws with a Sliding Table, such as the Felder or Knapp.

To be used in new shop of hobbyiest, for lots of cabinet work and general projects. The dealer in Los Angeles stands behind the quality of both machines, but hasn't the experience with a slider to advise me.

Gary Curtis

[Michael Ballent]

If you can afford a Knapp as your first table saw and you are certain that you enjoy woodworking then you cannot go wrong the Knapp (think Rolls Royce) or with Felder (being a Bently) Kufo is an asian import, the other two are made in Europe. You may also take a look at MiniMax.

Finally would you be interested in adopting a thirty something

[Richard Wolf]

I wish my friend, Paul Cresti was still posting here because he is the unoffical spokesman for European sliding table saws.
If this is your first saw and you are planning on building cabinets you should be thinking sliding table.
Next point is that this will be your last table saw. If you can, by all means buy a European saw, MiniMax is top of the line in quality and customer support. Other brands may have more features and bells and whistles, but you will never be disappointed with MiniMax.
My opinion is you should also buy a 8 1/2 ft. slider. Just seems if you are going to process sheet goods you should be able to fit a full sheet on it.
You can find alot of help and Paul on the MinMax owner group on yahoo groups.
Oh, welcome to the creek.

Richard

[Jamie Buxton]

It doesn't inspire me that the US web site (www.seco-usa.com) wants me to install a Chinese font before I view their site. Seems like they're not paying much attention....

[Gary Curtis]

The reason I am grazing in Kufo land in the first place is money. I can go as high as $3000. A Felder or Knapp would be about $15,000.

And I've read Paul Cresti's posts on a few sites. My interest is in a saw only, not a combo, and much of the chat wanders away from the saw function.

One of the replies to this thread spoke about crude castings and bad tolerances. Before I would buy one of these machines, I would have the dealer pull out a dial indicator to check run-out on the blade, and alignment of the slider.

I am bothered that the motor is rated for a blade speed of 4200 rpm at 50 cycles, but ramps up to 5300 on 60 cycles. You would think they'd fit a motor specified to U.S. current.

The slide is nicely constructed. The cross-cut fence and miter gauge are pretty substantial. And it weighs over 500 lbs. The rip fence looked pretty substantial.

Gary

[Jim Becker]

I have not seen the Kufo nor seen any reviews, but do understand your cost concerns. MiniMax's SC3, the low end of their line in the US lists for $5495. It's a bit heavier than the Kufo at 650 lbs and has a 5.5' slider. (Paul uses its big, big, big brother/sister, the Formula S35 in his pro shop) But I'll chime in that if you can go to this type of saw up-front, whether the Kufo if you feel comfortable with the machine and dealer, or another brand, so much the better. I personally am hoping to be able to upgrade to a slider in the future; probably as part of the "cost" of a home addition since I'm planning on doing all the cabinetry.

BTW, welcome to SMC!!

[Richard Wolf]

I'm a little confused by your second post. You are the one that mentioned Felder and Knapp and never stated price being a concern. Don't try to get more than your money will buy. $3000 will buy a great cabinet saw,(powermatic 66, saw stop, general) and most of us live with them.

Paul, dosen't own a combo saw, but a dedicated sliding table saw. If all that was ever talked about was saw function, most of us would be asleep very fast. I realize you have an interest in function now but you may have to serach the treads for more function.
I have read all the replies to you post (3) and no one said a word about rough castings or tolerances.
Take no offense, but it seems you asked a question that you already had an answer to.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

Richard, he only asked about "knowledge" about the others and clarified his budget in the second post.

[Richard Wolf]

Your right Jim, and I hope my reply doesn't sound like I'm being condersenting, but it is difficult to compare a $3000 sliding table saw to a Felder, which I assumed maybe Gary was thinking.
I apoligize if someone thinks I was jumping on.

Richard

[Gary Curtis]

Excuse my clumbsiness. I always clumb around. This is my first day on this forum, and it's a bit of a learning curve to manage the posts.

You were right. I referred to a comment that was a reply to my same question posted on the WoodNet forum. Sorry.

The guys who own Felders and Knapps talk a lot about the sawing function changing the way they work. They throw around the adjectives, but don't get real specific. A Knapp owner told me last night that, even with a 9-foot sliding panel, he can't rip down a 4x8 of plywood completely. Just barely.

I just read Jim Tobin's Table Saw Magic book. He discusses procedures. Where you stand, where you put your hands (and don't put), how to position your weight. He provides the kind of answers I'm looking for, but the books is dated ( just by a few years) so that it doesn't take into account Format saws.

I'd be happy with the General, and it would sure exceed my feeble abilities. But I have the nagging suspicion that in 8 or 10 years, Format Saws will be everywhere, and I'll be saddled to technology that is very 1950s. Just consider how Sliding Compound MIter Saws swept upon us. It's positively compounding, especially if you just laid out some bucks for a Radial Arm Saw.

To do research, I went over and watched two operators mill through a 4-foot stack of 3/4 ply on an Altendorf slider at Anderson Plywood in Culver City. They ripped each board into 18 inch panels, and went through the whole stack in about 25 minutes. The guy feeding the panels never got closer than 3-feet from the kerf line. Not from the blade, but the line-of-fire had there been a kickback. He just grabbed a far corner of the ply, and walked forward, pulling the wood & slider through the stroke. The guy picking, grabbed the cutoffs after they cleared the blade to the right.

It was poetry in motion. Or, was it moetry in potion. I can't remember which.
They were too busy to talk to a looky-loo like me. But I'd sure like to hear a comparison with how they managed on a Powermatic in the old days.

Gary

[Andrew Ault]

Gary,

I see a right tilt Unisaw on Craigslist in LA for a grand. It has a 52" Beisemeyer and mobile base.

Buying a good used saw can allow more money for other tools (big bandsaw, anyone?) and...wood.

The Delta is not as nicely finished as a new General, but it will work very well. Keep an eye out for deals. There's a 12" Davis and Wells (big iron) saw for sale today in San Diego for $850.

Just some alternatives to consider.

Good luck and I hope you find exactly what you want!

- Andy

[Frank Pellow]

Gary, if you are considering the slider in order to manage large panels, why don't you investigate a Guided Circular Saw System (GCSS) instead? There are lots of threads on the benefits of such a system here on Saw Mill Creek.

I have a General 650 table saw and a Festool GCSS. Both are great, but I will never again cut a large panel on a table saw.

If you really decide that a sliding table is for you, you might think about the one sold by Laguna.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Excuse my clumbsiness. I always clumb around. This is my first day on this forum, and it's a bit of a learning curve to manage the posts.

You were right. I referred to a comment that was a reply to my same question posted on the WoodNet forum. Sorry.

The guys who own Felders and Knapps talk a lot about the sawing function changing the way they work. They throw around the adjectives, but don't get real specific. A Knapp owner told me last night that, even with a 9-foot sliding panel, he can't rip down a 4x8 of plywood completely. Just barely.

I just read Jim Tobin's Table Saw Magic book. He discusses procedures. Where you stand, where you put your hands (and don't put), how to position your weight. He provides the kind of answers I'm looking for, but the books is dated ( just by a few years) so that it doesn't take into account Format saws.

I'd be happy with the General, and it would sure exceed my feeble abilities. But I have the nagging suspicion that in 8 or 10 years, Format Saws will be everywhere, and I'll be saddled to technology that is very 1950s. Just consider how Sliding Compound MIter Saws swept upon us. It's positively compounding, especially if you just laid out some bucks for a Radial Arm Saw.

To do research, I went over and watched two operators mill through a 4-foot stack of 3/4 ply on an Altendorf slider at Anderson Plywood in Culver City. They ripped each board into 18 inch panels, and went through the whole stack in about 25 minutes. The guy feeding the panels never got closer than 3-feet from the kerf line. Not from the blade, but the line-of-fire had there been a kickback. He just grabbed a far corner of the ply, and walked forward, pulling the wood & slider through the stroke. The guy picking, grabbed the cutoffs after they cleared the blade to the right.

It was poetry in motion. Or, was it moetry in potion. I can't remember which.
They were too busy to talk to a looky-loo like me. But I'd sure like to hear a comparison with how they managed on a Powermatic in the old days.

Gary

Gary,
Well I guess I could not stay away too long go figure! If my "friend" post though I will be forced to respond, my post will be deleted.....and we will start all over again.....anyway back to your question I think. I will try to give you my -0.02 of useless info on a EFSTS from the perspective of someone that has gone from table top saw - Contractor saw - Cabinets saw - 8.5ft EFSTS - 10ft EFSTS.

First thing is they are not cheap! but nothing good ever is. The things that really make them worth it to me is they excell at everything in relation to the antiquated "American" style cabinet saw. They allow one to safely, easily, accurately and repeatedly cut both solid and panel stock. They picked up were the cabinet saw left off about 60 years ago and they are continue to improve. They now have ones that can be full CNC if needed or wanted.

Some of the key pionts I can first tell you is that they allow one to cut anything with their hands very far from the blade and the operator out of the line of fire. Typically the operator stands to the side of the machine, where the slider is (we would call this the side but the Europeans call this the front or operator position) and performs all work from there. One could crosscut using the "outrigger" table and crosscut fence (on the outrigger table) or use a smaller crosscut fence only for very small pieces. Some manufacturers offer a small crosscut or miter guage in addition to the main crosscut fence. The main crosscut fence can also be placed on the front of the outrigger table (the side furthest from the operator) - this position is typically used to cut sheetgoods or the fence could be placed to the back of the outrigger table (closest to the operator)- this position is typically used for solid stock. The main crosscut fence also has flip down stops (there is a ruler on the fence to gauge it) that provide accurate measurements. One could also use the rip fence on the main table as a guage also. Ripping can be done on the slider an number of ways: clamping a board to it (also very very useful for straight line ripping aka edge joining long boards), using jigs to reference off of the crosscut fence to set a distance from the blade, using both the crosscut stop on the main crosscut fence and on a smaller crosscut fence (set to the same distance form the blade) or of course just use the good ole' rip fence! So there are many many ways you can use the EFSTS for both croscutting ripping.

I probably bored you to death so i will stop for now. Oh by the way I have heard of Kufu but do not know anything about them. See i did not mention any manufacturers, submit a link to another website or promote and of my own products

[Ian Barley]

Gary

You don't say which model you are looking at in the Kufo range. All of the ones on their website look like machines which are available from certain suppliers here in the UK. They are OK machines with a few limitations.

- Maximum cut on the sliding table is about 4'. So if you are planning on processing panels you will be limited to that dimension.
- The rip fence is an aluminium extrusion held in place against an aluminium extrusion. I have a similar arrangement on my saw and it is not a recipe for extreme accuracy.
- Check for dado blade compatibility, This is a saw built primarily for the european market and I would not expect it to be able to take a dado bladeset

I agree strongly with Paul about lots of things - not least that the sliding table saw has a huge amount to offer in terms of safe and accurate working. But please do not imagine for a moment that all sliding table saws are equal or that a saw of this type will perform anything like - even remotely like - the Altendorf you saw in use. The Altendorf is an aircraft carrier in comparison to the Kufo's dinghy.

A saw in the Kufo class will keep an enthusiastic hobbyist happy within the limitations of its size and capacities. You don't say what the dealer is asking for it. Based on the UK price it should be somewhere between $1500 -$2000 ar a guess? If it is much more than this I would recommend shopping around a bit longer. Alternative brands to look at would include Rojek. They are made in europe (czech republic) and offer some nicely built machines at fairly realistic prices.

[Frank Pellow]

Gary,
Well I guess I could not stay away too long go figure!
...

Glad to see you back Paul!