Run out on G1023slw TS arbor flange

[Shawn Siegrist]

I have a brand new G1023slw that I purchased in December, the original arbor flange had 6 thousandths of run out on it. Grizzly sent me a replacement arbor, installed replacement part and this arbor has 2 thousandths of run out on the flange. With the blade attached I'm getting 4 thousandths of run out. Is this acceptable? In my opinion it isn't acceptable but maybe I'm too picky.


Shawn

[Jason White]

How do your cuts look?

If they look acceptable to you, throw away your dial indicator and start building something.

Jason

I have a brand new G1023slw that I purchased in December, the original arbor flange had 6 thousandths of run out on it. Grizzly sent me a replacement arbor, installed replacement part and this arbor has 2 thousandths of run out on the flange. With the blade attached I'm getting 4 thousandths of run out. Is this acceptable? In my opinion it isn't acceptable but maybe I'm too picky.


Shawn

[Shawn Siegrist]

Saw marks all over the place, not happy with it at all!

[Don Jarvie]

You bought a jointer right? Set the jointer to remove 1/16th and add that to each cut on each side if you prefer.

Check to see if the wood is snug against the fence as you run it through the saw. On my saw I get a hair of drift that gives me a mark or two but still cuts to the required width.

That won't be a problem once the jointer is up and running.

[Dan Friedrichs]

With the blade attached, 0.004" is fine. Even premium blades will have >0.005" variations across their face.

I'd bet your blade marks are being caused by the fence alignment, not this runout. Set your fence to be ~0.002" away from the blade at the back, and see if that fixes your problem.

[glenn bradley]

Saw marks all over the place, not happy with it at all!

That sounds like more than a total runout of that amount might account for. Are the saw marks on each side of the cut? That is; If you rip a 1" strip off a board, are the saw marks on the piece you cut off or the piece you cut it from, or both? Same result with different blades, etc.? I have chased problems only to find that there was a different contributing factor than the origianl issue I was after.

[Shawn Siegrist]

If 2 thousandths of run out is acceptable then I will accept it. But if 2 thousandths isn't acceptable then I need a replacement part from grizzly.

[Howard Acheson]

What saw blade do you have?

Have you checked the blade to miter slot parallelism and the fence to miter slot parallelism?

[Dan Friedrichs]

If 2 thousandths of run out is acceptable then I will accept it. But if 2 thousandths isn't acceptable then I need a replacement part from grizzly.

IMHO, it could be less, but I doubt it's the reason you're getting saw marks. Tune up the blade and fence parallelism and see if things improve.

[John Thompson]

.002 is well acceptable and better than most machines on the market as .004-.005 is standard. The saw marks aren't coming from your run-out. I had a Uni-saw with about .008 run-out (common on the older Uni-saw) and didn't get saw marks. Look elsewhere like fence adjustment... feed rate.. etc. as if you are concentrating on run-out you are barking up the wrong tree IMO.

[Van Huskey]

.002 is well acceptable and better than most machines on the market as .004-.005 is standard.

You might be being to generous, FWW tested 9 hybrid saws and 6 measured .000, two .001 and one .002. One thing I will mention is arbor runout is notoriously hard to measure exactly and one can easily case a significant error. But I agree I do not think the .002 if accurate is causing the issue.

[Jason White]

Ditto on re-checking blade and fence parallelism with the miter slots.

No need for the dial indicator for this. I use a Starett combination square to make both the blade and fence parallel with the miter slots. Has always worked great for me on both my current cabinet saw and my previous RIDGID contractor saw.

I'm using a Freud 40T full-kerf combination blade in my Grizzly 1023 with no problems at all (no burning, no visible saw marks, etc.). In fact, the blade was parallel with the miter slots right out of the box and has stayed that way for more than a year now. I have never checked for arbor runout because, frankly, I don't care as long as my cuts look acceptable.

I did upgrade the stock fence with a Biesemeyer, however.

Are you using the stock splitter with your new Grizzly? If so, make sure that thing is aligned perfectly with the blade, too. Make a test cut or two without the guard on the saw to see if the splitter might be contributing to the problem.

Jason

If 2 thousandths of run out is acceptable then I will accept it. But if 2 thousandths isn't acceptable then I need a replacement part from grizzly.

[scott spencer]

Here is a procedure I was given to help offset runout. It's not mine and haven't tried it yet, but it looks worth a shot to me:

"Here is the procedure I used to cancel runout in the arbor flange and blade to minimize wobble.

Measure the runout in the arbor flange using a dial indicator. I zero the lowest value on the dial indicator so all values are positive. I marked a point on the outer edge of the flange where the maximum runout is with a silver sharpee meant for bare metal. The lowest value was near 180 degrees this point, but not exactly. Even though the runnout is very small, it is magnified at the outer cutting edge of the blade. So, if it is only .001, at the tip of the blade it is around .004 or .005.

Using a red sharpee, I marked quadrants on the blade near the reliefs or large gullets with sequential numbers. I do this on the side that faces the flange. If there are only 4, then I mark another spot in between. So a blade will typically have anywhere from 5 to 8 spots to measure when installed in the saw.

I put together a spreadsheet with columns for each quadrant mark and rows for an equal number of tests (e.g.: 5 quadrants, 5 rows). I also include a last row for a final test.

I then put the blade on the arbor, line up quadrant 1 with the mark on the arbor flange, and hand tighten the nut and outer washer. I set up a dial indicator to take a measurment as far out to the flat surface of the blade as possible. I rotate the blade and zero the lowest value on the dial indicator so all values are positive. I then take a measure measurement at each quadrant with a dial indicator. I record the values. I loosen the nut and move the blade to the next sequential marking. I repeat this process until I get to the last one.

I then determine which quadrant produced the lowest runout. I go the extra mile and figure out where it is between two best quadrants. That is figured out with a little math. I will move the blade to that position, retest it to check the runout. If it checks out right I mark a spot on the blade with a black sharpee near the blade. This way the next time I install the blade I just line up the black spot on the blade with the silver spot on the arbor flange.

This sounds like a lot of work, but it takes about 10-15 minutes per blade and you only have to do it once. The runout ranges I have seen with my delta side kick are from .015 to .005. Of course I would use it at the .005 position. That is the worst blade. My CMT ripping runs at about .002 in its optimum canceled out position."

[brian c miller]

How are you measuring... it may be your measurement method account from some of the error.

I did you use a standard AGD dial indicator (DI) or a Dial test indicator (DTI). A DTI is a better tool for measuring TIR but not many wood workers will have one.

How is the DI oriented to the arbor?

If the stem of the indicator is at even a slight angle to the base you've introduced what's commonly called Cosine Error. In simplest terms if the measurement is taken on an angle, the indicated values is larger than the actual value.

You can correct it by using this chart.

Correction Factor Table
Angle Degrees Multiply by
10 - 0.98
20 - 0.94
30 - 0.86
40 - 0.76
50 - 0.64
60 - 0.50

I'd start here:

What

The bearings on a Table Saw arbor are designed to allow it to rotate freely but not move side to side. As bearings wear, this side play becomes more pronounced and will cause vibration.

Why

Side play can affect the accuracy and reliability of meansurements needed to align the blade. Vibration from side play will produce a poor quality cut which will need further work (jointing) before glue-up. When the arbor bearings are in good shape, a well aligned saw with a high quality blade can produce an edge that is ready for glue-up without any further preparation.

How

Place the stylus of the dial indicator against the surface of the blade as shown in the photo above. The dial indicator is shown with an Offset Bar on the end of the plunger. This isn’t necessary, you can place the stylus anywhere on the surface of the blade plate. It doesn’t need to be near the table surface. Next, rotate the scale so that the large hand points to zero. Pressing on the sides of the blade will cause the reading to change. Basically, you are measuring how far the blade flexes as you press against it. Ideally, the reading should return to zero when you release the pressure. If it doesn’t, then you are measuring the amount of side play in the bearings. If it’s less than 0.001″ (one thousandth of an inch, one graduation on the dial), then there’s nothing to worry about. If it’s more than 0.001″ but less than 0.005″ then you’ll want to make note of it for future measurements (this play will influence the accuracy of your alignment). If it’s more than 0.005″, then you should replace the bearings (or forget about using this table saw for accurate work).

Assuming you've got tigh bearings, set us as before:

Start with the same setup you used to check for bearing side play. The Offset Bar on the end of the dial indicator plunger isn’t necessary, you can place the stylus anywhere near the edge of the blade. It doesn’t need to be near the table surface. Rotate the blade by hand and observe the reading on the dial indicator. If you are aligning a contractor’s style saw, then turn the blade by pulling on the belt. If it’s a cabinet saw, then you’ll have to do it by touching the blade. You have already seen how flexing of the blade can influence the reading so do your best to avoid it. Basically, you want to measure variations in the surface of the blade (its flatness) combined with any wobble in the arbor and arbor flange (run-out). You want to avoid changes in reading caused by flexing the blade or bearing side play.

When you locate the point with the highest reading, mark the spot with a felt tip pen.

Loosen the arbor nut so that the blade can rotate freely without turning the arbor.

With the arbor remaining still, rotate the blade half way around (180 degrees) and re-tighten the arbor nut.

Now, with the dial indicator stylus against the blade as before, watch the reading as you rotate the blade. Stop when you find the highest reading. If you find the spot that you marked with the felt tip pen underneath the stylus of the dial indicator, then the variations are being caused by blade warp. If the total change in reading by less than +/-0.001″, then your blade, arbor and flange are in great shape. If it’s more, then you might want to think about getting a better blade, but there’s no reason to be concerned with the condition of your saw.
However, if the highest reading is nowhere near the spot you marked, then the variations are being caused by wobble (run-out) in the arbor and/or the flange. The next steps will reveal exactly where the problem is.

Remove the blade and the throat plate so that you can place the stylus of the dial indicator directly against the arbor.

This close up photo shows the stylus resting on an unthreaded portion of the arbor. You won’t be able to obtain reliable readings if the stylus is on the threads. If your arbor is threaded all the way up to the flange, then you won’t be able to measure arbor run-out. Also notice that the flange is dish shaped. If the dial indicator were exactly vertical, then the plunger would rub against the outer edge of the flange. So, the dial indicator has been tilted slightly so that there is clearance between the plunger and the flange. Normally, your most accurate and reliable measurements occur when the plunger of the dial indicator is perpendicular to the surface that you are measuring. This is one of those rare instances when you need to break this rule. The tilt is slight so the effect will be corectable (see table above).
Next, you want to rotate the arbor and observe the reading on the dial indicator. It’s easiest to do this with the belt(s) removed. The change in reading should be less than 0.001″. If it’s more, then you should replace the arbor or forget about using this saw for precise work. This mode of run-out is caused by a bent arbor. It could be a defect in manufacturing but most often it is caused by a kickback (wood binding in the blade during the cut). The problem cannot be easily corrected in a machine shop. A shop which specializes in straightening crank shafts might be able to do it but the cost would easily exceed that of a new arbor.

In preparation of measuring flange run-out, tilt the arbor to 45 degrees. Place the stylus of the dial indicator against the outer rim of the flange. Notice how the dial indicator is tilted to match the tilt of the arbor. This arranges the plunger so that it is perpendicular to the surface being measured and will give you the most reliable and accurate readings. I’ve seen a number of people (authors, manufacturers, and other so called “experts”) demonstrate this measurement by leaving the arbor horizontal and tilting the dial indicator at a steep angle. This is a very poor practice that will cause the readings to be exaggerated. Now you know better than these “experts”.

The close-up photo shows the stylus tip resting on the center of the raised rim of the flange. This is the part of the flange that contacts the blade and is therefore the only part that matters. As before, rotate the arbor and observe the reading on the dial indicator. Removing the belt(s) will make the task a lot easier. You should see no more than 0.001″ variation. If it’s more, you can bring the arbor to a machine shop and have the flange faced on a lathe.
So, what happens when you do all these tests and find nothing wrong? The blade seems flat, the arbor isn’t bent, and the flange runs true but you still see excessive run-out when you measure at the edge of the blade. Look for a piece of dirt, saw dust, or grime on the flange, or on the blade where it contacts the flange. Make sure that all the mating surfaces are clean before re-assembling and testing again. The problem could also be a burr or ding on the edge of the flange. A couple of swipes with a file could clear it all up.
These photos show the tests being demonstrated on my mid-80’s vintage Delta Unisaw. It has seen really hard use during the past 20+ years. In addition to thousands of board feet of lumber, this saw has seen many tons of aluminum across it’s table. Even so, it’s still accurate and still passes these simple diagnostic tests.

[John Thompson]

You might be being to generous, FWW tested 9 hybrid saws and 6 measured .000, two .001 and one .002. One thing I will mention is arbor runout is notoriously hard to measure exactly and one can easily case a significant error. But I agree I do not think the .002 if accurate is causing the issue.

With due respect Van.. I worked around American Muscle Car Restoration for about 30 years. That included the engine shop which built race engines and we had some good machinist.. very good. It would probably be a cold day in Haiti when I believed that FWW tested 9 hybrids and found 6 of them to have .000 arbor run-out. I personally don't believe the amount of machine work required to do that was put into an around $1 K machine with cast iron castings.

Perhaps R. Johnson from FWW did the test? R. Johnson is the same associate that several years ago did testing on the introductory Steel City 18" BS. He measured and reported the table out of flat at .018. In the same sentence he mentioned he measured with the pin out of the table. Not many caught that but the machine guys did which created a stink and led to an apology to SC in the next mags editors letters.

A cast iron BS table is ground at the factory with the pin in the talbe. It will not measure the correct flatness with it out. When it is out the table will spread form the relief slit where the blade is insert to get it on the saw. In the same review R J said the BS would not re-saw straight as the bearing guide shaft was bent.

It turns out he took is off the pallet and didn't bother to make the first adjustment which have to be made on all BS's. The SC 18" has 4 mico adjusters clearly visible on the side which would have moved the guide shaft to vertical if someone took the time. In his apology on that the excuse was he was under a print deadline and just didn't have time.

So.. again with all due respect I will totally agree with you that run-out is notoriously hard to measure. I will also add that I personally believe many of those that have purchased under $100 digital read-out don't really know how to measure to begin with. WW'ers trying to be machinist.

This is of course my personal opinion based on how many times on forums I have seen people with digitals corrected on their procedure. BTW.. FWW also tested the Sawstop Industrail Saw a while back and reported .004 arbor run-out which is excellent as this machine is pretty well made and machined. I tested one at IWF in 2007 and found about the same tolerance.

Maybe anyone considering the SS Industrial should take FWW tip and go for the hybrid with .000 run-out? Ya think...

Regards...