Member
I won't weigh in on fit, finish or functionality - many, with much better credentials than I have commented.
One question I have: If using Palisander for the handles, which is most certainly a Dalgerbia of one species or another, how do they get around the CITES regulations without a mound of paperwork? Maybe the rationale for the big bucks
Dave B
[OP]
Member
Isn't it only Brassilian palisander which is on the Cites list?Originally Posted by Dave Beauchesne
Best regards
Lasse Hilbrandt
Member
To be fair they're marketing these as "bench chisels", but that leads directly back to another problem: As Graham said, they're "hipster framing slicks" masquerading as bench chisels. It actually doesn't matter, because they're unsuited to either application.
Addressing Stewie's comment about traditional methods: To make a traditional, time-tested tool you need both traditional methods and a proven, traditional design. At best these cover one of those two bases. The design is just weird, and I think that's what a lot of folks are reacting to. Warren for example is no fan of "innovative methods" and yet still objected to these on the basis of their design. He's right.
Another red flag here for me is the fact that they epoxy their handles on, and then advertise that as a feature! Nobody does that in a serious chisel. If the epoxy held up then it would simply prevent people from re-handling them "to taste". The good news is that the glue won't hold up to serious use, which makes it simply pointless (and easily recognized as such). If you do re-handle don't forget to remove the residue from the socket first, though.
I don't think "Disneyland" was too harsh in this instance.
Member
That's OK, they're glueing the handle into the socket. What could possibly go wrong?
Contributor
Hmmm, so if one wanted to make some big bucks they could make some cartoon chisels and sell them to folks who do not plan on ever using them?
Me thinks my ethical nature has kept me from being a rich son of a gun.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Member
The fact that it *looks* seamless and therefore "well produced" is actually the problem.
Stanley explained it well: Wood is compressible. The part of the handle in the socket compresses. There needs to be a gap between the handle's flange (the wider part that won't fit into the socket) and the rim of the socket to allow for that compression. You can see this gap easily if you look at a picture of a Stanley 750 (old or new) or any other socket chisel.
EDIT: Two more examples illustrating proper gaps. L-N socket chisels, and Veritas chisels which are socket-over-tang.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 07-30-2017 at 2:56 PM.
Member
There are a few ways you could get a finish like that, but I would guess that they were bead blasted after grinding or something like that.
Contributor
This brings to mind a visit to a blacksmith friend of mine down in the Santa Cruz, California area, he was having his helper work on some hinges. They were actually regular zinc plated hinges he was putting in the fire to burn off the zinc and then beating them a few times to make them look hand forged. What a way to make a few bucks.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Member
He was just using the "traditional methods" pioneered by P.T. Barnum.
Guest
Derek:
The shape and finish would indeed be difficult to accomplish with just forge, anvil, hammer and grinder. But it's readily accomplished if some dies are used.
Chisel blacksmiths in Japan (can't speak to other countries) make their own hand-held dies, each like an ugly, heavy spoon with a long, skinny handle, hollowed out to match the cross section and shoulder detail of each width of chisel. The laminated, roughly shaped steel is heated and pounded into this die shaping the back, bevels, and shoulder. These surfaces are then ground, and sometimes filed, to create clean surfaces and crisp edges.
I assume Western chisel blacksmiths in past centuries used very similar techniques.
Of course, mass producers also use multiple shaping dies and trimming dies to shape their products made with rikizai.
I suspect the hammer and anvil work shown in his excellent promotional videos is for show. It likely that he is using multiple cutting, shaping, and trimming dies in a mass-production situation, similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBspuKqG9Sw
You will notice that very little scale shows up in this video. This is evidence that they are using high-alloy steel, without a lot of carbon. Scale is hard on dies.
This video shows scale in the most dramatic manner I have ever seen. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tEF2erBBVZ4
When iron containing impurities like carbon (carbon is an impurity with positive benefits if kept within limits) is heated and worked, these impurities, which are liquid at high temperatures, migrate out of the mass, cooling slightly to form "scale" on the surface of the mass. If the heat is too high for too long, or the hot metal is heated and re-heated too many times, the nature of the remaining carbon may change ("burning" and ruining the steel), or the amount of remaining carbon may be too low to produce useful steel. This "burning" risk is higher with plain high-carbon steels than it is with alloy steels containing moly, chrome, vanadium, and tungsten.
As I have written before, modern alloys have made mass-production of low to medium quality tools fast, easy, and inexpensive. QC is much much easier to maintain with low-skilled workers (often illiterate farmers in China). We have all benefited tremendously from these scientific and engineering advances. However, the quality of cutting edges such as knives and woodworking tools has not improved a bit. Just the opposite, IMO.
A careful blacksmith will scrub this surface scale off before using his shaping dies, but a sloppy craftsman, or one in a hurry (or artistic?), may allow excess amounts of scale and crap to remain on the surface of the hot laminated metal before working it in the shaping die, creating the rough finish seen in the photos. This rough surface does not affect cutting performance, but it does affect tolerances and is seen as a sign of careless and sloppy workmanship here in Japan.
On the other hand, you have seen Japanese plane blades with a similar finish on their jigane faces. This can be accomplished several ways, but the most common method is to just work the hot metal face-down on an anvil with scale between blade and anvil, embossing the blade. In the case of a plane, it does not affect tolerances or performance, and some people like this rough finish.
This is all OK and artsy fartsy until it begins to affect tolerances. I would not tolerate it in a chisel.
So we can see that our Norseman has cleverly modified all the traditional time-proven features of a high-quality tool so that they are no longer effective, while at the same time substituting materials and design details that read and look very impressive on a website viewed by amateurs, all in accordance with a carefully-worked out marketing plan, targeting a well-defined "Target Rube (TR)," at a price-point that balances maximum profits against the wallet-size of the TR, while at the same time stimulating the hormonal, herd instincts of the TRs eager to wait in line for months for the honor of buying his products.
He must have studied PT Barnum's life minute-by-minute. If he decides to quit the wonderful world of Viking metalworking, he has a bright future waiting for him designing attractions for the Disney Corp., or making props for Hollywood.
The man is a frikin genius!
Last edited by Stanley Covington; 07-31-2017 at 6:03 AM.
[OP]
Member
Stan.
I replied to them yesterday and asked why they use round stock and not flat stock. They replied today that Hitachi don't make flat stock as thick as they prefer. That's why they buy round stock.
Member
Which begs the question: Why do they think they need the hard layer of the lamination to be thicker than Hitachi's thickest flat stock?
The whole point of a laminated chisel is to AVOID having a thick, brittle hunk of ultra-hard steel. You only get the toughness benefit of lamination if you keep that bit relatively thin.
[facepalm]
Contributor
The price is absurd. The LV PM-V11 chisels run about $70 each. These chisels would have to have some feature, such as staying sharp forever, no matter how they were used, to justify the price.
Or maybe a feature that you could just describe what you wanted done and the chisels would get up and do the work for you according to your description. Sort of a 18th century CNC.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
Lasse: As of Jan. 1/17, ALL Rosewoods, three Bubinga species and others were added to CITES. That is what I take from what I have been able to read. - Dave B
[OP]
Member
I don't want to be the guy who defends their prices or anything els for that matter but regarding the price I'm sure you can find other chisel makers in the world that is able to sell their products at a similar price. I think that one of the main reasons for the high price is due to the really high wages that is paid in the Scandinavian countries, largely due to the high taxes.
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