Will this farmhouse table design have expansion issues?

[Marc Jeske]

Joey - Another also..If you use SYP for the top, keep in mind it is typically dried to only 19% when it leaves the kiln, BUT... I have found stuff sitting in the yard seems to acclimate quickly, cause I seem to find it often around 11% where I live.

Now, keep in mind in my case I am talking a higher grade of 3/4, not 1 1/2 like you would be using, so it may not sell/turnover as fast.

And, if you ARE using 2x construction lumber, it is more probably called "SPF" - a mix of Spruce, Somekinda Pine, and Somekinda Fir, so the hardness varies.

That stuff I would assume will be closer to 19%, so you definitely need to account for the shrinkage.

Please put your location so it shows under your name - As extremes.. Dry AZ will make your top shrink more than wet New Orleans.

Bottom line, even though the entire thread has valid pertinent info, don't get deflated by it.

But I would seriously consider not gluing up the top. Marc

[Marc Jeske]

I'm pretty sure the below link is the talked about "Table Irons"

Otherwise, I got no clue what they are. Marc

http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware...=3,41306,41309

[Bill Adamsen]

The leg stretcher (stringer in your verbiage?) is so low that I don't think you'll have any issue. As Robert said ... used breadboard ends to keep the top flat. How much lateral resistance is that "board" attached to the top of the legs providing and what is the contribution of the stretcher? Is it a box stretcher (four pieces)?

[Joey Stephenson]

Joey - Another also..If you use SYP for the top, keep in mind it is typically dried to only 19% when it leaves the kiln, BUT... I have found stuff sitting in the yard seems to acclimate quickly, cause I seem to find it often around 11% where I live.

Now, keep in mind in my case I am talking a higher grade of 3/4, not 1 1/2 like you would be using, so it may not sell/turnover as fast.

And, if you ARE using 2x construction lumber, it is more probably called "SPF" - a mix of Spruce, Somekinda Pine, and Somekinda Fir, so the hardness varies.

That stuff I would assume will be closer to 19%, so you definitely need to account for the shrinkage.

Please put your location so it shows under your name - As extremes.. Dry AZ will make your top shrink more than wet New Orleans.

Bottom line, even though the entire thread has valid pertinent info, don't get deflated by it.

But I would seriously consider not gluing up the top. Marc

I think its SYP. I'm in the north GA area, btw. Can you explain why you wouldn't glue the top? How would that affect expansion if they are edge joined and expanding together?

[Joey Stephenson]

The leg stretcher (stringer in your verbiage?) is so low that I don't think you'll have any issue. As Robert said ... used breadboard ends to keep the top flat. How much lateral resistance is that "board" attached to the top of the legs providing and what is the contribution of the stretcher? Is it a box stretcher (four pieces)?

Well, the board on the legs is basically a crossmember, but mostly the method of connecting the table to the legs (table top will most likely be glued together). I'm all for suggestions for a better way, though!
The purpose of the stretch is for looks and also general stability for the table. That's usually their purpose, right?

[Marc Jeske]

Well, just for the fact that there will be slight gaps form between the boards, rather than cracks in a wider glued up area.

Like if a gap opens or closes a bit, it won't be near as obvious as a crack(s).

Again - If you mount the top so it can be unrestricted.... + and -... you can make the top either way.

But even then, you may have another problem in that depending on the grain on your boards, and if you alternate or not when gluing...some in your control..some not.. it still is safer cause the gaps between planks kinda buffer everything.

The main thing by far that will affect how it looks after being in the Kitchen for a year, is what the MC was when you made it, and what it acclimates to in the house.

The farther apart those two numbers are, the more it will have moved.

So with wet lumber, WAY safer to use like 2x6.. not wider.. and NOT glue up.

AND... study the grain compared to the link below..to decide WHICH side of the board to put "Up"

And, consider the above sentence even when picking the boards for the top at the yard.

Lay them out the correct side up and make sure the tops look good, and you have enough.

Also, you will also see why Quartersawn is the most desirable in the image.

You just have to assume that using this type of wettish wood you will have a "Rustic" look, and it will change in time, possibly even more Rustic !!

But still beautiful in it's own way.

Know what I mean? Marc

wood warp.jpg YARRRRR can't see that.. heres the link..
http://www.deckmagazine.com/design-c...ks-that-last_o

[Marc Jeske]

See, even though that article above is about Decking boards, EVERYTHING in it totally applies to your tabletop.

For the relatively minimal $ and time you will have in this table, it will be beautiful.

Hey, it's a Farmhouse Table. Look at the real originals, basic and often made from flawed semi reject wood for economy... usually not by choice.

Marc

[Joey Stephenson]

Well, just for the fact that there will be slight gaps form between the boards, rather than cracks in a wider glued up area.

Like if a gap opens or closes a bit, it won't be near as obvious as a crack(s).

Again - If you mount the top so it can be unrestricted.... + and -... you can make the top either way.

But even then, you may have another problem in that depending on the grain on your boards, and if you alternate or not when gluing...some in your control..some not.. it still is safer cause the gaps between planks kinda buffer everything.

The main thing by far that will affect how it looks after being in the Kitchen for a year, is what the MC was when you made it, and what it acclimates to in the house.

The farther apart those two numbers are, the more it will have moved.

So with wet lumber, WAY safer to use like 2x6.. not wider.. and NOT glue up.

AND... study the grain compared to the link below..to decide WHICH side of the board to put "Up"

And, consider the above sentence even when picking the boards for the top at the yard.

Lay them out the correct side up and make sure the tops look good, and you have enough.

Also, you will also see why Quartersawn is the most desirable in the image.

You just have to assume that using this type of wettish wood you will have a "Rustic" look, and it will change in time, possibly even more Rustic !!

But still beautiful in it's own way.

Know what I mean? Marc

wood warp.jpg YARRRRR can't see that.. heres the link..
http://www.deckmagazine.com/design-c...ks-that-last_o

Marc, I really appreciate your input. I will definitely take all of this into consideration. So, when I see table tops at something like restaurants that have many planks edge glued, how do they mitigate these problems that you mentioned? Are most of them usually 5" planks or narrower? I wouldn't try to edge glue 2x12's or anything, but its just good to know what the limit should be in this case.

This is the wood I'm using for the legs/stringer, and may possibly cut into 3" - 5" planks for the top. Any suggestion for inexpensive hardwoods as an alternative?

EDIT: forgot to add link to wood --- http://www.homedepot.com/p/2-in-x-12...7282/202085957

[Marc Jeske]

One can make a 5 foot wide table from ONE super wide board (measured across grain, NOT length) ... and IF it was allowed to achieve the MC that it will eventually achieve (equilibrium) where it will be used BEFORE it was final thicknessed, AND the humidity in the place used was pretty constant, it could, depending on stuff, but could stay pretty flat.

Google info on making tabletops and you'll get a wealth of info.

Texting is too difficult, too slow for me.

You will do fine no matter what you do, just make sure whoever owns this table realizez "Rustic".

Joey - Sending you PM in a moment. Marc

[Joey Stephenson]

Good page about wood movement, definitely a good reference.

http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow...d_Movement.htm

[Bill Adamsen]

Well, the board on the legs is basically a crossmember, but mostly the method of connecting the table to the legs (table top will most likely be glued together). I'm all for suggestions for a better way, though! The purpose of the stretch is for looks and also general stability for the table. That's usually their purpose, right?

There are so many ways to build a table. Have you a multi dimensional drawing or photo of similar? In use, typically one likes to be able to pull a chair up close to a table. To accomplish that, the designer uses an H stretcher (center lengthwise) and extends the ends well beyond the legs (if there is a stretcher) so that a chair can be pulled up to the end. Typically stretchers would attach to the legs and each other with mortise and tenon. My simple understanding of your design was that each leg was perhaps 8" to 10" square with a larger square board on top screwed down into the leg and screwed up into the top. I've never seen a table done like that but it seems like a creative and reasonable solution. If the top is made of an engineered wood (plywood) the approach should work fine. Even with glued boards it should work fine. The distance between the screws on the boards is not that great, and the legs will simply move apart with the expansion/contraction of the top. Now if you expect to stretch a board across two legs on one end of the table – and also screw it into the top – forget it. That's a cross grain construction approach since the top will move seasonally yet the board (grain in opposite direction) screwed in underneath will not move. Over a wider stance (say 28"-30") that is a recipe for eventual failure. Also note that if you are building with boards many (myself included) would recommend some sort of breadboard end to keep the tabletop flat and yet allow seasonal movement. Now there are ways to make that cross grain board "slide" with various techniques such as dovetails or other mechanical connectors specifically designed to slide. Some, like the dovetail can also keep the top flat.

As I said when starting this response ... there are so many ways to build a table.

[Joey Stephenson]

There are so many ways to build a table. Have you a multi dimensional drawing or photo of similar? In use, typically one likes to be able to pull a chair up close to a table. To accomplish that, the designer uses an H stretcher (center lengthwise) and extends the ends well beyond the legs (if there is a stretcher) so that a chair can be pulled up to the end. Typically stretchers would attach to the legs and each other with mortise and tenon. My simple understanding of your design was that each leg was perhaps 8" to 10" square with a larger square board on top screwed down into the leg and screwed up into the top. I've never seen a table done like that but it seems like a creative and reasonable solution. If the top is made of an engineered wood (plywood) the approach should work fine. Even with glued boards it should work fine. The distance between the screws on the boards is not that great, and the legs will simply move apart with the expansion/contraction of the top. Now if you expect to stretch a board across two legs on one end of the table – and also screw it into the top – forget it. That's a cross grain construction approach since the top will move seasonally yet the board (grain in opposite direction) screwed in underneath will not move. Over a wider stance (say 28"-30&quot that is a recipe for eventual failure. Also note that if you are building with boards many (myself included) would recommend some sort of breadboard end to keep the tabletop flat and yet allow seasonal movement. Now there are ways to make that cross grain board "slide" with various techniques such as dovetails or other mechanical connectors specifically designed to slide. Some, like the dovetail can also keep the top flat. As I said when starting this response ... there are so many ways to build a table.

Bill, yes I plan on attaching the stretcher to the legs with mortise and tenon, or possibly a wedged through-tenon. As for the top, yes it would be essentially a big fat cross brace board which screw into the top of the legs, and then the table would get screwed into that, one on each end. I would use slotted screw holes to allow for movement of the top. Something like that, anyway.
Side note... your post showed up in the middle of page 2 here, even though it is the newest post. I swear, this forum has issues haha.

[Joey Stephenson]

I looked at my dining room table, very similar to what I want to build. Big solid expensive table. It has many narrow ( 3" - 5" ) boards running the length of the 2 halves (breaks in the middle for the leaves). The aprons on it are screwed into the top, no buttons or table fasteners. The apron corners are mitered together, with an interior block screwed to each corner of the apron to help hold it together. I've never noticed any issues with it over the years, yet it seems to break the rules being discussed here (apron hard fastened in across the grain...). What am I missing?

[Marc Jeske]

Bill, yes I plan on attaching the stretcher to the legs with mortise and tenon, or possibly a wedged through-tenon. As for the top, yes it would be essentially a big fat cross brace board which screw into the top of the legs, and then the table would get screwed into that, one on each end. I would use slotted screw holes to allow for movement of the top. Something like that, anyway.
Side note... your post showed up in the middle of page 2 here, even though it is the newest post. I swear, this forum has issues haha.

Yup, the slotted screw holes w the screws not over tight sounds great for this Table.

Re: Your existing DR Table - I'm sure you would know, but if it was veneer over a stable core, how you explained would work.

Otherwise, if solid wood..You are totally correct in understanding that it goes against conventional methods. Marc