[OP]
Member
Could someone please explain to me the main differences in these two ways to do dust collection? I see a new thread discussing building a cyclone system. A few days ago there was a thread on using a 1.5 dust collector along with a home built shop filter with a squirrel cage blower.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Paul
Friend of the Creek
Hi Paul,
http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm is stop #1. I think that Bill has one of the most even handed presentations I have ever read. He speaks from the heart.
Chuck
Member
Paul,
I just recently bought the Jet 1100 canister DC. I spent a lot time reading all the posts and Bill Pentz's articles. There is so much information out there that I just ended up being confused. I would have went with the cyclone if I could have vented outside but that is impossible where I am at. Most everyone will agree that you want to run 6" mainline as close to your machines as possible and then reduce to fit. I'm very happy with the Jet as it collects both the dust and chips except at the CMS. I built a housing around the saw to contain whatever the DC doesn't get. Ron H
Member
Paul, your question actually points to a third item; an air cleaner. The shop-made "collector" you mention (using a squirrel cage fan) is not a dust collector. It is an air filtration system used to capture the fine suspended dust that settles on everything. But a cyclone and a traditional single stage dust collector collect the big, medium and small chips. Better ones capture a large percentage of the fine dust as well.
The cyclone separates out the majority of the stuff before it hits the filters, thereby reducing plugging. It does it by swirling it in the cone and it drops out of the airflow into a collection bin.
A single-stage is essentially a big vaccuum cleaner that needs to be emptied and the filters cleaned when it fills up. The cyclone gets dumped when full, but minimal dust/chips should make it to the actual filters, reducing the cleaning needed.
Once I added quasi-cyclone seperator atages to my DC and shop-vac the time between filter cleanings went up dramatically and air flow stays high much longer if you get lazy about clean up.
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".
– Samuel Butler
[OP]
Member
I am still not getting it. I am using a Delta 50-760 for my chip collection. I push it around my 25X20 shop. It seems to work fine for what I am using it for. I recently built 3 bookcases and did a lot of sanding with my orbital. That is when I noticed the fine dust on everything. I don't get how a cyclone would help me with that. I checked Amazon for air filters, such as the Delta 50-875, JDS 14022, and the Jet AFS-1000B. Feedback says these machines take care of most of the fine dust which I cannot contain with my present situation. They claim that their shop no longer has dust settling on their tools or in their lungs. I am also considering building an air cleaner. How would a cyclone setup help me? Would I still need an air cleaner if I switched to the cyclone? I have been reading Bill Pentz's web site little by little. I went to the Clear-Vue site and found that interesting. How would their $1000.00 system clean up the sanding dust, unless one buys the ceiling hung air filters. I have a feeling that a lot of new woodworkers like myself are concerned with fine dust. Any help would be appreciated. Paul
Member
Paul, dust collection kinda reminds me of when I was drag racing bikes, my favorite saying then was, Speed and Spending both start with a S for a reason.
The faster/cleaner ya want to be, the more ya gotta spend.
I haven't a clue as to what you should be using, but when I went though adding a DC system to my garage I had to think about several things.
Had to be portable, or be able to sustain repeated blows from the wife parking her car in the garage
Had to be small enough that it didn't take up any more room than needed.
Had to be affordable, this is a hobby, not a career.
Had to do as much filtration as possible with in these guidelines.
Living in Minn it couldn't just vent outside, weather and the neighbors both prevented this from happening.
So...after reading all of what I could find on DC and becoming convinced I was gonna die if I didn't have a professional system in my garage, I took a few steps backwards and made a few compromises.
I now have the JDS portable unit with a 1 micron filter, and when I remember, I use a 3m filter mask.
So maybe ya might wanna decide on what ya can afford, how much room ya got and whatever other varibles ya can come up with and see what fits for you...??
Just a thought.
Al
Guest
A cyclone probably won't help w/ the hand-held tools, as the dust ports are too small. I use a Shop-Vac for a tiny dust collection network in my shop. It collects pretty much all of my sander's dust.Originally Posted by Paul Neuman
Member
Paul, When I set up my system I tried to neck down the hose from the 6" piping to the sanders but I didn't have hardly any air movement and had fine dust every where while sanding. I now attach my sanders to my shop vac and that is working very well for me. I have a Jet 1000b suspended from the ceiling and that removes the dust from the air but you are still breathing it. IMHO it is best to control the dust at the source with a vacum or a down draft table. If I had to do it over I wouldn't buy the air filtration system. Ron
Member
Early on, I got a Jet 1100 DC and still had the fine dust settling everywhere. I got the AFS1000 air cleaner to help and it did. I have since hooked most of my hand held tools to my shop vac. Sanders are especially effective when attached to the vac, the little dust bins you attach are all but useless. Part of my new basement shop is a 2HP commercial Oneida cyclone system. When I turn it on and open a port, the dust floating in the air of my shop migrates to the tool being used. In other words, it is acting as an air filter. I rarely even turn on my AFS anymore. Dust collection is a priority with every tool I buy (well, OK, it doesn't play into handplanes, rasps and chisels) and I have upgraded a bunch of my handheld tools with that in mind. Aside from some recent drywall work, I have very little dust settling anymore. Handheld routing and finishing are the only times I turn on the AFS.
Jay St. Peter
Contributor
Hi, in the BC years of my shop (Before Cyclone), I used a bag type single stage collector that was rated at 1 HP and 720 CFM.
Being a Technologist I performed all the duct calculations myself and installed the ductwork. The shop always had a layer of very fine dust on everything which truly made my collector a "dust collector".
Fast forward a few years, a planer upgrade from the portable type to a cast iron 15 inch model, and I needed to increase the airflow at the planer to 400 to 500CFM. No problem I thought, a couple of calculations, a couple of simple duct changes and all would be well.
No such luck, the planer was still spitting out chips, and if you were planing pine, the chips would be crushed into the wood, leaving dents. I borrowed an annemometer from work, and found that I only had about 230CFM at the planer. Check the frictional loss calculations, all looked OK, what was causing the problem?
The problem was that the manufacturer lied about the performance of the collector, as indicated below;
- empty bags with 10 feet of 4" pipe 270CFM
- empty, washed bags with above pipe 360 CFM
- same as above, no pipe 430CFM
- no bags at all 690CFM
So I did some research and bought a 1 1/2 HP Oneida cyclone with cartridge filter, rated at 957 CFM free air, with a cartridge filter, tested to ASHRAE standards that removes 99.9% of dust .2 to 2.0 microns in diameter.
The cyclone has a published fan curve, so you design ducting that works, and the filter works as advertised. All the fine dust that used to settle everywhere is now captured at source, including from my random orbital sander.
There is enough airflow that my cabinet tablesaw has almost zero dust emmisions, when using the base and overarm guard connections.
The maintenance is simple, the large chips are in the barrel, I use a plastic bag sized for the barrel, and once it's about half full, I put a twist tie on it and carry it upstairs and out to the garbage. The filter has all the fine dust on the inside, so you blow it down with compressed air, and the dust falls into the dust pan. Remove the pan, bag the dust and you're done. No more clouds of fine dust as yoy're emptying the old bag collector, that's the main point, not to breathe any of the fine dust, so why collect it and then breathe it during maintenance?
The 2 stage cyclones seperate the heavy chips out in the cyclone, before the air goes through the impeller, then the very dust goes through the impeller and into the cartridge filter. Far more eficient that a single stage collector.
You get what you pay for, and with the above system I don't need an air cleaner, since the dust didn't get into the air in the first place. No dust mask required either.
I've been so happy with my system that 3 other people have purchased the 2 HP system for themselves, as their shops are larger than mine.
Regards, Rod.
Last edited by Rod Sheridan; 01-11-2007 at 9:57 AM.
Guest
You are in North Dakota and you can't vent to outside?? I am in New Jersey and I vent to outside.
Moderator
Think "replacement air", Cliff...that's definitely a consideration in North Dakota most of the year! You and I, being in the temperate mid-atlantic/northeat have less issue with that, but I'd hate to dump my heat and/or AC air outside.
--
The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Member
Cliff, My main concern was keeping the garage warm plus when I initially layed out my shop I didn't give any consideration to putting in a DC system so the space I had available lent itself to the size of a small DC. I really wanted to put in a cyclone but I would have had to remove almost everything in the shop and start over which is probably what I should do.
It has warmed up to -4 which isn't too bad but the winds are about 25 mph. I need to go and get a gallon of lacquer but don't feel like going outside. Ron
Member
Look at the Oneids portable unit, best of both worlds. i think Bob Marino has one and has posted about it.
Chuck
When all else fails increase hammer size!
"You can know what other people know. You can do what other people can do."-Dave Gingery
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