Neanderthal Leaning; Need feedback on future tools.

[Nelson Bryan]

Hello all. This actually is more of a question regarding power tools, but from the mindset of using more and more human powered hand tools and using only power tools for the heavy, tedious "apprentice" type work. I guess I'm more Neanderthal adjacent? I've kind of been sitting on this post for a couple of months as I've worked. So this is sort of a running stream of consciousness I typed up as I was doing a project this summer. Think of this as a "Due to noise and dust factor I want to mainly use human powered hand tools, but realize the practicality of owning a few power tools for grunt work" type thread.


TLDR; I am completely rethinking my power tools and gravitating more and more to bringing the tool to the work and not the work to the tool.
I currently have a Ridgid 6 inch jointer, a Dewalt DW745 jobsite saw, Dewalt router...I don't remember what model, I want to say it takes 1/4 inch bits. I also have a cheap 6 1/2 inch Ridgid corded circular saw. I'm thinking about selling some/all of them and gravitating toward a better circular saw or track saw with dust collection, and/or bandsaw as my only main power tools. Well, and a drill. I'm wondering what the thoughts are here on this, and who here has done something similar?

---

Two recent projects;

A couple years ago I built a shaker style walnut "desk" for my wife. Really it is a narrow table. For leg stock I bought a slab of 10/4 walnut with two live edges, but there was no way I was ripping that on my table saw. I ended up buying a two piece 10ft cheap straight edge at HD that I clamped and used my circular saw. The table saw got used a fair amount for that build, but the use of the circular saw really changed how I view power tools. As I age I'm also changing my mindset on dust and the noise factor. And I had a kickback that was eye opening. I've been gravitating more and more to old school hand tools and getting pretty decent with planes, saws and chisels.



This summer I launched into building a king sized "Thuma" style bed;
I started with the legs. Locally sourced walnut that was just under 4 inches and I think about 120 inches long. Pretty rough cut. I sized up the table saw and can do max cutting depth of 3.25 inches. And the piece was too long. Out came the ryoba and I had four chunks for legs in about 10 minutes. Then I sized up the castle joints. Again, same issue. I had decided on 4 inch rails and the jobsite saw didn't cut deep enough. Undaunted I still tried some test cuts and built a tenon jig for my table saw and just tried on a 2x4 glued and squared on the jointer. Even though I only did a 2 inch test cut bridle joint, I wasn't happy with the fit.

- The legs got tapered with an old junky plane with a heavy cambered blade, and then cleaned up with my No 6 and smoothed with my No 4.

- I ended up hand cutting all eight bridle joints on the walnut legs with my ryoba. Same with the rails. Trying to edge joint the 84 and 88 inch rails on my 6 inch jointer was tedious and error prone. I ended up switching to my Stanley No 5 and my straight edge shows I'm flat within about 1mm the entire length. Good enough for me...if it looks good enough it is good enough, right?

- I cut 4 inch splines into the bed rail ends, all done by hand. This is to reinforce the castle joint when assembling/disassembling...

- For the ledger/cleats, and the outside top portion of the rail I used my 6 1/2 Ridgid circular saw and jerry-rigged up a 9-10' long straight-edge I got at the orange borg store a few years ago. I just make about 4-5 passes and have successfully ripped multiple long rail pieces now from 8/4 to 10/4 rough sawn plank. So, so far for this project, that is pretty much the only power tool I've used.

The jointer is sitting idle for this project because it was just easier to use my hand planes, the table saw there is no way to safely use it for about 80% of the cuts on this build. Really I need a better cabinet saw, but there is no money nor room for that. I'm just a hobbyist.

At this point I'm about ready to sell both of them, then build some jigs or get a turnkey option like a Milescraft or Kreg jig/track system and use just my circular saw for awhile? For the type of stuff I do though I could see long term just getting a track saw, and then perhaps a band saw for more delicate work, curves, resawing, etc. Probably keep the router around too for dados. I'm still mulling this over and not trying to get too impulsive and sell the wrong thing and have some "ragrets" later...

---
So, after this project some conclusions;

- What I want to do in the future? Probably more furniture. I'm eyeballing the kitchen table, and chairs for it too. But various cabinetry, shelving, odd around the house home improvement projects. Heck, I'm even looking suspiciously at the old Chicom knockoff Chesterfeld sofa and wondering if I could make one in more of a Scandi or Japanese style and work with a local upholsterer for cushions. For smaller projects, I also want to try my hand at smaller, intricate stuff that's useful too. Boxes, organization type stuff...I already know my wife will drive me nuts with knick-knacks if I let her. You know, stupid pointless decoration type crap. :sigh: If I did get a bandsaw I know this is what would happen.

- Four of my five kids are showing an interest in woodworking. Two of the three girls already have an unhealthy obsession with weaving, knitting and crochet work. The youngest of the three also I'm finding has an aesthetic eye and took some scrap wood piece, started chopping at it with a hammer and my cordless drill to shape it a bit and "painted" it with markers to make a little girl figurine out of it. My 12 year old son also loves building and experimenting all manner of things.

I've also looked at the bow saws, frame saws...I could see getting into those too. But then I actually want to get projects done in a timely manner too. So I guess you could say I'm loving the human powered hand tools for joinery, fittings, cross cuts, tenons and mortising. I've now built up a reasonable hand tool set up. Stanley 4, 5, and 6 Sweetheart (which is my favorite, don't tell Patrick Leach). Then a Millers Falls 9 and 14 a plan to fettle out this winter. I picked up a set of the old school Marples Blue Chips, pre-Irwin. Veritas double marking gauge. Cheap combo square that I've learned to keep square. I love my Japanese saws too much though that I'll be looking at western saws any time soon.

Most of the time I'm just working off of some Jay Van Arsdale style saw horses I put together, and use a slatted "table" from a failed "Nelson" style bench project from 15 years ago, that I lay across the saw horses and use clamps for various work holding. I've toyed with building a bench, but at this point I don't think I will. At best maybe a Paulk style bench or some torsion beams/boxes and build more/better saw horses.

What say you fine people? I'd rather work on skill set. Software trumps hardware. But I don't want to be so stubborn and try to go hand tool only, nor do I want to be "that guy" who is always buying some new fad tool to augment lack of skills.
It seems like there must be some sort of happy balance with a good 2-5 power tools that expedites the heavy labor part, but still keeps tools a little more simplified?

[john zulu]

I started on hand tools and right now using power tools. It depends on the project you are working on. If you are working on MDF and plywood. A tracksaw or table saw would be essential. Even a router table. It all depends on what you want to achieve
in terms of craftmanship and time allocated to the project. If time and material permits it, go with hand tools. It is more satisfying. It all depends on the project you want to accomplish. Tools or not does not determine the quality. The skill does.

I would keep all the tools if possible. If you want to do more hand tool work a bandsaw is a must. I have ripped Kempas,Balau and Chengal that was over 6 feet long with thickness at 2 inches. Handsawing is no fun with that.

[steven c newman]

Do not worry, as someone is sure to come along and tell you to buy everything in a certain Catalog....but...I usually advise against THAT route.

Also..forget that old MYTH of "Buy once, cry once".......

[David Carroll]

It's an interesting point, what amount of hand work do you need to do before you call yourself a "hand tool woodworker", "neanderthal," or "galoot?" I consider myself a hand tool woodworker. The only power tools that I have in my shop now are a drill press, and a scroll saw. Everything else I've sold or given away. I still have a dewalt cordless kit of small tools for home renovation, but they don't see any use in finer woodworking.

These days I buy all my lumber rough or surfaced, but I always thickness boards by hand. All ripping and crosscutting is done by hand, and of course all joinery is by hand. The part I enjoy the most is breaking down timbers. A well made, very sharp saw is not drudgery to me. I get in the groove and really enjoy the experience. A couple of years ago I made a carving bench frame out of 12/4 Sycamore. I made all the cuts with Reproduction Kenyon saws from Mike Wenzloff. It was a blast! All together it was nearly 75 linear feet of cutting through 3-inch hardwood. My arm was sore, and I was pretty tired at the end of it, but I really felt like I was working wood.

If I was starting out again, I would invest the money I spent buying okay quality power tools and instead buy good hand tools.

Again, this is a hobby for me. If making furniture was a business I would use power tools more.

DC

[mike stenson]

I prefer using hand tools, but it really depends on what I'm building. My last projects utilized a tracksaw, table saw, multiple powered routers, handsaws, router planes, bench planes, shooting boards, drills (hand and powered), a biscuit joiner, a domino, a planer (thicknesser if you're not American) and HVLP equipment. They were made out of sheet goods (yes, I planed plywood and MDF, especially shot them square for the joinery). The projects before that both used a planer and a powered jointer, a tracksaw and a drill. The rest were hand tools. The next few projects will all be sheet good boxes (cabs, cabs, cabs), so I'll be mostly using powered tools for them. I agree, it's not the arrows here. You can accomplish what you want with either machines or by hand. The skillset is what differs, and IMO neither is inherently easier.

If you're going to go hand tools, I'd build a bench. The Paulk-style benches are great for power tools IMO, nice flat assembly areas and if you incorporate 20mm holes into the tops, they become highly flexible (and actually one of my planned next projects, cabs and a top ), but they do not possess mass. You'll appreciate the mass pushing planes.

[Jimmy Harris]

I say, put some money away and don't buy anything until you need it. You'll be surprised at what you need versus what you thought you'd need ahead of time. So rather than try to anticipate your needs, let them arrive organically. If you have the money on hand to deal with them when they do, that won't be a problem.

A lot of what power tools make the most sense for you depends on what projects you take up and what wood you buy. In other words, it's impossible to tell anyone else what their most used power tools would be ahead of time. The two most indispensable power tools for me are a powered hand drill and a circular saw. You can do a lot with those two, and I wouldn't ever want to be without them. I don't work with a lot of plywood or MDF, but I'm glad I have a circular saw every time I do. And a battery powered drill, well, I use mine at least once a week for something, even if I much prefer to use a brace. Outside of those two, I can't strongly recommend anything that I think would be universal. It's all personal preference based on needs and what you enjoy or hate doing the most.

Honestly, I like brute force hand sawing for long periods of time. I like resawing long pieces of 8" stock with a Disston D8. Yeah, it's ridiculously slow. But it's good exercise and it puts my mind into a meditative, almost hypnotic state. Same with planing. I just hate cleaning up the chips, shavings, and dust when I'm done.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Nelson and welcome to the Creek.

It sounds like you are off to a good start.

If you do decide on a bandsaw try to get one of good quality and size. The limits to a bandsaw are; how wide a cut can be made, how tall a cut can be made and the maximum blade size. My bandsaw can cut ~14" from blade to riser, 12" height (for resaw) and can take a 3/4" blade. There haven't been many times of wishing it was bigger.

Buying used will save some money if you find one in good condition.

One thing woodworkers almost always need is a way to bore a hole. A decent drill motor (battery or corded) can take care of this most of the time. For my hole boring needs there is everything from brace & eggbeater to cordless drills and a drill press. Sometimes even my lathe gets in on the boring duties.

As you become more experienced using hand planes you will find you do not need much sandpaper.

After you get settled in, you may want some carving tools or molding planes to add accents to your projects. That is a subject for another day.

jtk

[Ben Ellenberger]

I’d guess that 90% of what I do uses two bench planes, a couple of saws, and a couple of chisels. For tables, shelves, etc. that is all you really need. A plow plane is very nice for frame and panel construction and drawer bottoms.

It sounds like you’ve already got the tools you need for the kinds of things you want to build. I agree with others, a bench or some kind of suitable work holding solution will make you life much more enjoyable.

[Nelson Bryan]

It's an interesting point, what amount of hand work do you need to do before you call yourself a "hand tool woodworker", "neanderthal," or "galoot?" I consider myself a hand tool woodworker. The only power tools that I have in my shop now are a drill press, and a scroll saw. Everything else I've sold or given away. I still have a dewalt cordless kit of small tools for home renovation, but they don't see any use in finer woodworking.

These days I buy all my lumber rough or surfaced, but I always thickness boards by hand. All ripping and crosscutting is done by hand, and of course all joinery is by hand. The part I enjoy the most is breaking down timbers. A well made, very sharp saw is not drudgery to me. I get in the groove and really enjoy the experience. A couple of years ago I made a carving bench frame out of 12/4 Sycamore. I made all the cuts with Reproduction Kenyon saws from Mike Wenzloff. It was a blast! All together it was nearly 75 linear feet of cutting through 3-inch hardwood. My arm was sore, and I was pretty tired at the end of it, but I really felt like I was working wood.

If I was starting out again, I would invest the money I spent buying okay quality power tools and instead buy good hand tools.

Again, this is a hobby for me. If making furniture was a business I would use power tools more.

DC

!!!

That is quite the feat. This current bed frame project I did do a rip by hand of a couple of six foot lengths of walnut for the center support rails, just to see how bad it was. I need some practice as I had to do a bit of clean up. I've also done some resawing of shorter pieces with my ryoba. Mainly just to practice. I need more...

I'm with you on the thickness planing, I think. I'll know better when I eventually get around to doing my office desk top for the adjustable frame I have. But I've found a heavily cambered blade in a junk Defiance 1203 I have makes a pretty decent scrub plane, then I come back through with the No 5, then No 6 and finally smooth out with the No 4.

I am kind of curious about the choice to keep the scroll saw?

I say, put some money away and don't buy anything until you need it. You'll be surprised at what you need versus what you thought you'd need ahead of time. So rather than try to anticipate your needs, let them arrive organically. If you have the money on hand to deal with them when they do, that won't be a problem.

A lot of what power tools make the most sense for you depends on what projects you take up and what wood you buy. In other words, it's impossible to tell anyone else what their most used power tools would be ahead of time. The two most indispensable power tools for me are a powered hand drill and a circular saw. You can do a lot with those two, and I wouldn't ever want to be without them. I don't work with a lot of plywood or MDF, but I'm glad I have a circular saw every time I do. And a battery powered drill, well, I use mine at least once a week for something, even if I much prefer to use a brace. Outside of those two, I can't strongly recommend anything that I think would be universal. It's all personal preference based on needs and what you enjoy or hate doing the most.

Honestly, I like brute force hand sawing for long periods of time. I like resawing long pieces of 8" stock with a Disston D8. Yeah, it's ridiculously slow. But it's good exercise and it puts my mind into a meditative, almost hypnotic state. Same with planing. I just hate cleaning up the chips, shavings, and dust when I'm done.

Now this right here is what interests me. These are basically the only two power tools I have used for this current project. And that has mainly just been the saw for ripping and the drill for dowel holes. And like I said, when I built my wife her desk a couple of years ago it was eye opening to me what I was able to accomplish with my little 6 1/2 corded Ridgid when the 10/4 walnut plank I was cutting was just too large for my table saw.
I do feel like I may never touch my jobsite table saw again. After that kickback, which granted was my own fault as I didn't have a riving knife on it, I have just become very leery of using it much since then. I am tempted to upgrade just this one tool for now. Either a 7 1/4 cordless with a brushless motor...or a track saw. It seems like with various jigs and a crosscut sled a circular saw can do nearly anything I would want to that a table saw does.

This fellow in particular has demonstrated some pretty clever home made tools; https://www.youtube.com/@YASUHIROTV/videos

This one especially for circular saws I found enlightening; https://youtu.be/ug4NYR8UieI?si=StLaq3itnQOWDpYB
He also has one for a jigsaw that was quite entertaining and I could see might be useful as a "poor man's bandsaw" in some function.



There are also various crosscut and miter sleds, and enclosed tracks for long straight cuts out there for the circular saw too.


To all the others that posted, sorry I didn't quote you. I do appreciate the feedback I've received and read your posts (and I'm re-reading them).
I'm in no rush on going on a spending spree. I'm just trying to evaluate where I'm at, and what future projects I want to do. And whether or not I need some more tools, and what I currently have too. I'm trying to see if I have any blind spots in my thinking. Am I crazy to consider ditching current tools and turning them into greenbacks for potential future tool purchases if I'm not going to use them any more?

[Jim Koepke]

!!!

I'm in no rush on going on a spending spree. I'm just trying to evaluate where I'm at, and what future projects I want to do. And whether or not I need some more tools, and what I currently have too. I'm trying to see if I have any blind spots in my thinking. Am I crazy to consider ditching current tools and turning them into greenbacks for potential future tool purchases if I'm not going to use them any more?

It is good to not rush into tool purchases.

For me some good money was made by buying old tools to restore and sell. It helped to purchase other tools of higher quality.

My other thought on this is old tools seem to keep increasing in value, making them an investment if needed in the future. Some of my grandchildren have shown an interest in woodworking. Hopefully some of my tools will continue to be used by family members in the future.

Another thought Nelson is your profile doesn't indicate your location. There are many other members here who would be happy to let you test drive various tools of which you may be curious. You may live close to another welcoming member.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

I am in agreement with at least two previous posts that a work bench upgrade might be quite satisfying for you. You built a Thuma bed, and provided a link for those not familiar, but your bench is a couple high end saw horses with some kind of table top and some unspecified clamps for a bench.

In my experience, that entire Thuma build would have gone quicker and been more fun, more satisfying; with a work bench upgrade for you. I am willing to believe you got within 1 mm of flat, but with the bench you describe it was a lot more pain in the neck than it needed to be to get there.

I am going to point you at a youtube video for a quick overview. There is a guy on youtube named Rex Krueger. He has several workbench videos. If you go to youtube and search on the term "Rex Workbench" the vidya I am thinking of will be on page one of your search hits, 19:05 in length, with 5 different workbenches spread around his bald head for the screen shot. I got no financial affiliation. I don't think Rex and I would get along in person at all. He is very much (on screen at least) very much an adrenalin person. I like serotonin, contentment. But he and I have built a lot of the same projects, we have read a lot of the same books, and I agree with most of his conclusions in this particular episode. I wonder especially if a low bench, the Roman style bench, might be a thing that would work both for you and ALL the littles as a gateway bench for all and sundry.

If the spark catches the kindling, there is a ton of workbench build threads here also; but I think Rex does a pretty fine job pointing out the advantages and compromises of the major bench styles without me having to film a serotonin based copy or homage.

When I was a kid, I was a farm kid. The first time I saw a doctor for back pain I was 11. Now I am pushing 60 and I got the bad joints to prove I was a farm kid back in the day. For me to choose to hand thickness my rough lumber would be a hobby ending choice to make, so I personally have no moral problem leaning on my electric apprentices, jointer, planer and so on, to get me in the ball park. I do like to hand tool finish all the show surfaces on everything I make, but I got no time to be running multiple hand planes around the insides of no drawer chest.

I think the most important thing you can do in this season is build relationship with the kids. Anything you can do now that causes them to put down their phones and iPads and so on to go "do stuff in the shop with Dad" is awesome and it will pay dividends for, well, forever. What about bird houses? Audubon I think dot org has significant resources for homemade bird houses. You can look up what birds are native to your area, how big a box, how big a hole to drill, the whole nine yards. If you build a birdhouse with your 8 year old now, and hang it somewhere it can be seen from the dining table; wow. When the hormones hit in a few years the child is going to see long term family investment every time they sit down for a bowl of cereal.

Once the last kid is out for college you will have PLENTY of time to build Chippendale chairs or Louis XIV wardrobes or Arts and Crafts coatracks and so on. Federal hall table. The list is endless. Right now you got one shot to build relationship with the children. Take the shot every day. You will not regret it.

Good luck and best wishes.

[Nelson Bryan]

I am in agreement with at least two previous posts that a work bench upgrade might be quite satisfying for you. You built a Thuma bed, and provided a link for those not familiar, but your bench is a couple high end saw horses with some kind of table top and some unspecified clamps for a bench.

In my experience, that entire Thuma build would have gone quicker and been more fun, more satisfying; with a work bench upgrade for you. I am willing to believe you got within 1 mm of flat, but with the bench you describe it was a lot more pain in the neck than it needed to be to get there.

I am going to point you at a youtube video for a quick overview. There is a guy on youtube named Rex Krueger. He has several workbench videos. If you go to youtube and search on the term "Rex Workbench" the vidya I am thinking of will be on page one of your search hits, 19:05 in length, with 5 different workbenches spread around his bald head for the screen shot. I got no financial affiliation. I don't think Rex and I would get along in person at all. He is very much (on screen at least) very much an adrenalin person. I like serotonin, contentment. But he and I have built a lot of the same projects, we have read a lot of the same books, and I agree with most of his conclusions in this particular episode. I wonder especially if a low bench, the Roman style bench, might be a thing that would work both for you and ALL the littles as a gateway bench for all and sundry.

If the spark catches the kindling, there is a ton of workbench build threads here also; but I think Rex does a pretty fine job pointing out the advantages and compromises of the major bench styles without me having to film a serotonin based copy or homage.

When I was a kid, I was a farm kid. The first time I saw a doctor for back pain I was 11. Now I am pushing 60 and I got the bad joints to prove I was a farm kid back in the day. For me to choose to hand thickness my rough lumber would be a hobby ending choice to make, so I personally have no moral problem leaning on my electric apprentices, jointer, planer and so on, to get me in the ball park. I do like to hand tool finish all the show surfaces on everything I make, but I got no time to be running multiple hand planes around the insides of no drawer chest.

I think the most important thing you can do in this season is build relationship with the kids. Anything you can do now that causes them to put down their phones and iPads and so on to go "do stuff in the shop with Dad" is awesome and it will pay dividends for, well, forever. What about bird houses? Audubon I think dot org has significant resources for homemade bird houses. You can look up what birds are native to your area, how big a box, how big a hole to drill, the whole nine yards. If you build a birdhouse with your 8 year old now, and hang it somewhere it can be seen from the dining table; wow. When the hormones hit in a few years the child is going to see long term family investment every time they sit down for a bowl of cereal.

Once the last kid is out for college you will have PLENTY of time to build Chippendale chairs or Louis XIV wardrobes or Arts and Crafts coatracks and so on. Federal hall table. The list is endless. Right now you got one shot to build relationship with the children. Take the shot every day. You will not regret it.

Good luck and best wishes.

Thank you for the thoughtful post. And yes, you're probably right. I should re-evaluate my "workbench".

Actually I am familiar with Rex Krueger's channel, and have seen the Roman style low bench. I think I have probably seen nearly all of them. And yes, I have considered building one. One of the coolest looking ones I've seen was built by a guy who goes by the moniker Octavian Dan: Mini Roman Workbench. There is also another fellow named Adrian Preda, I believe from the Balkans region that has made some rather clever little small, low workbenches that obviously are pretty heavily influenced by Japanese atedai, but with more sophisticated work holds. I believe this is his most recent workshop.

I also have Toshio Odate's book, Vic Tesolin's "Minimalist Woodworker" book, and have actually exchanged a few emails with him. Nice guy.
I also have Tom Fidgen's "Unplugged Workshop" book. My mind was blown when I saw his kerfing "plane" and the wood planes. And I most recently read Chris Schwarz's "Anarchist's Workbench" book. On a more western world side of things too I have considered Shannon Roger's Joinery Bench and planing beam, and have thought about making something similar to it.

One thing that has struck me this year is a better understanding of "the how" methodology of hand woodwork, including toolset and workbench have to all be incorporated in one package. I think Rex actually calls tools a "network".
For example, Japanese style working with simple tools and mobility in mind. They carried their tool box with them wherever they went. Built a work area onsite generally a planing beam, small low bench and because they pull their planes and saws will use the human body as a clamp. Generally they left these with the property owner should they return to work on that property again. The western mindset you need a large, heavy immovable bench with various work holds that sit up higher in the line of sight. I don't see either as superior. Just different.

--

I do know this. I bought a small 50mm Japanese smoothing plane. It's okay. I still prefer a western style plane. I feel like I'm in a comfortable position now owning I think it's a type 15 No 6, type 16 No 5 and 4. Then that old Defiance I use as a pseudo scrub and the two Millers Falls I plan to fettle this winter. I do like finding these old tools and giving them a mild restore. I think I snagged the 4 and 5 for around $30 (plus shipping), the No 6 was about $65 (plus shipping, they always ding you for $10-20 there). The Millers Falls No 9 I got for $15 and the 14 for $5 (plus shipping). All of them are going to be keepers. Straight, square sides and the soles have flattened well.

Chisel's same. I've got some cheap Dewalt bench chisels I started with a couple years ago when I started gravitating to hand tool woodworking. Mirrored the backs and they have been a good starter set. The four Marples though are definitely nicer. Better bevel edges, longer. They will clean up nicely. Obviously chisels can be used on all manner of workbenches. I also have a Sorby mortising chisel 1/4". I might get a 3/8 eventually, but I'm in no hurry. I do like the old chisels and plan on eventually building out 3-4 sets of probably 3 to 5 chisels in sizes that make sense, to hand down to the kids. Same with planes and saws. Nothing super expensive or fancy, but good work horse tools that could be a minimal set that the typical DIY'er could use for most things in life.

The saws. Now those are where I just prefer the pull stroke, and using one of those on a higher bench is just not how they are made to be used. I still may get into western style saws eventually. I too am a farm kid. My grandpa had a shop will all sorts of hand tools, including old saws that I used. And a couple planes, which nobody really knew how to properly use. So I mention all the main tools I'm using as the workbench itself plays a part in this.

--

So my current "workbench" and "shop" space. I do have a 36" high toolchest with a 2x4ft top. Mainly holding the typical drawers full of all the tools most Americans accumulate over the years. Wrenches, sockets sets, etc for work on the cars. Hacksaws, stud finders, drillbits, yada, yada. Then because I just work in a two-car garage, where I have to back out the minivan, then the other stall is full of kids bikes, and various clutter that always gets shoved out from the house I don't have much space. So what happened years ago was I had some saw horses, that I eventually got rid of and a year or so ago replaced with some 26" tall Japanese style ones that I knocked together over a weekend. It gave me good practice with hand tools and I wasn't building anything at the time. Upon these I added a couple of cleats on the sides, and I can clamp long boards directly to them and edge plane, or slap on top and do the same. By moving around about 4 clamps the workitself often becomse the bench. For a larger flatter surface I also have this slatted...thing, made out of 1x2 red oak. It's basically a grid of slats 3/4" wide with 3/4" gaps between each slat. It was a failed attempt a a George Nelson style platform bench; https://www.hermanmiller.com/product...latform-bench/

So this thing is about 30"x60". It's heavyish. And I just lay it across the saw horses to work. Because it's slatted I can take my clamps and run them through the slats and clamp pieces in all manner of ways. Because I can clamp to the workpiece and this slatted thing and the sawhorses it all is easily moveable, but rock solid when I start clamping things down. Because of the clamps too it's easy to move them around and allows for a very fluid workflow. Heck, I could even throw the whole crazy thing in a vehicle and easily relocate my tools and "bench" anywhere I want to be.

Sorry, that took a lot to explain. If I could have I should have just posted a picture. But I'm one of those dirtbag freeloaders here.
Perhaps I'll create another thread sometime and pony up some dough to become a proper member here and post some pics.

I guess I glossed it a bit when I said I didn't intend to build a bench. I've considered it and still am running through that thought process. But if/when I do, like I said I was leaning more toward something like Shannon Roger's joinery bench, or perhaps a set up like this one Mike Farrington posted, it basically is a couple of sawhorses and these torsion beams with dog holes and a clamp. Or, I could see building a better workbench to replace this glorified toolchest as a fitting and joinery space, and still continue to use sawhorses for a knockdown workspace for large things. And a low Roman bench doesn't take up much room either. ...or I could see ending up with all three.



Anyway, that was a long-winded way of saying that I think you're right and I need to be considering my workspace as a whole. Any potential tool purchases and what kind. Both human powered and electron.

And yes too on the kids. I'm in my late 40's. They are all about 14 down to 3. And no ipad/iphones, no social media and they only play video games on the weekends. They hang out with their friends in actual meat space. As I have more money coming in again and my time has freed up a bit I'm trying to spend more time with them. Visiting my wife's family in the deserts of the southwest yearly, camping out there the past two years for a couple weeks at a time. And we've been camping twice this year. And they like fishing and other outdoor activities.
So I do see their interest in "making things" and want to take advantage of that while I can. I don't want to look back ten years from now with regret.

[Jimmy Harris]

It's an interesting point, what amount of hand work do you need to do before you call yourself a "hand tool woodworker", "neanderthal," or "galoot?" I consider myself a hand tool woodworker. The only power tools that I have in my shop now are a drill press, and a scroll saw. Everything else I've sold or given away. I still have a dewalt cordless kit of small tools for home renovation, but they don't see any use in finer woodworking.

These days I buy all my lumber rough or surfaced, but I always thickness boards by hand. All ripping and crosscutting is done by hand, and of course all joinery is by hand. The part I enjoy the most is breaking down timbers. A well made, very sharp saw is not drudgery to me. I get in the groove and really enjoy the experience. A couple of years ago I made a carving bench frame out of 12/4 Sycamore. I made all the cuts with Reproduction Kenyon saws from Mike Wenzloff. It was a blast! All together it was nearly 75 linear feet of cutting through 3-inch hardwood. My arm was sore, and I was pretty tired at the end of it, but I really felt like I was working wood.

If I was starting out again, I would invest the money I spent buying okay quality power tools and instead buy good hand tools.

Again, this is a hobby for me. If making furniture was a business I would use power tools more.

DC

That's kind of funny to me, as the only bench power tools I own are also a drill press and scroll saw. And I do use them all of the time. But I often wonder if I use them often because I own them, or because they're that useful. They're certainly useful to me, anyway.

I have access to a bunch of other power tools as well, and will occasionally use them. But I have to drive over to my father's house to use them, so it's got to be a pretty large project to actually save me much time, which is my main reason for using a power tool.

Honestly, just like any other tool, it's less about the tool itself and more about how good you are with it. Like I rarely use my father's table saw and have no use for a track saw. But, I'm pretty good with a circular saw, a straight edge guide, and some clamps. With most tools, there's a primary thing or two that it's designed to do well. And then there are hundreds of secondary things that you can get done with them if you're adept. They may not be the best tools for that job, but they'll get the job done, and done right if you know how. And often times, you'll get better results using a tool your familiar with to do something it wasn't designed to do than using a purpose made tool for the first time.

And that's part of the beauty of tools. Get good with a hand saw, bench plane, and bench chisel, and there's not much you can't accomplish. Those three tools aren't always the best tools for the job, but if you're really good with those three tools, there's really nothing you can't do, and do exceedingly well.

Though, I will say this. It doesn't matter how many clamps you have. You'll always need two more. So always keep a few bucks on hand for extra clamps. And as a lot of people are stating, a good bench is indispensable. I have a terrible bench. I make it work. But it's causes me exponentially more frustration than any "lack of proper tools". I'm gonna fix that one day, but I'm saving up to "do it right".

[David Carroll]

I have the scroll saw because I make a lot of carved Christmas ornaments and small craft projects. I bought the saw brandy new back in the early 1980's and it's been a real workhorse. But I only use if for about a month a year. The rest of the time it sits under a bench.

I will always have a drill press, though I will likely get a smaller bench mounted one, since I'm downsizing my shop considerably.

DC

[Nelson Bryan]

I have the scroll saw because I make a lot of carved Christmas ornaments and small craft projects. I bought the saw brandy new back in the early 1980's and it's been a real workhorse. But I only use if for about a month a year. The rest of the time it sits under a bench.

I will always have a drill press, though I will likely get a smaller bench mounted one, since I'm downsizing my shop considerably.

DC

Thank you. It's helpful to hear the why of a thing. I'm still learning as I go.

And thanks again to all of the others that posted. I'll revisit this thread and continue to contemplate what I have, and where I think I'm going. I'll probably just use this winter to finish cleaning up and fixing the couple of planes that need it. Perhaps replace my cheap $12 combo square with a better one, and then sort out workbench / workspace needs going into next spring.