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Thread: On the Feedback of Sharpening Stones

  1. #1

    On the Feedback of Sharpening Stones

    So I know a lot of people love their sharpening jigs and claim it's the only way to get consistent and repeatable angles on their blades. Which, being someone who's freehand sharpened their whole life, always struck me as kind of odd. I get it if you don't do much sharpening or are new the realm of sharpening, but for us hand tool woodworkers, experience is not a problem. So it would seem to me that most of us would get pretty good at freehand sharpening and not need these jigs to get those consistent and repeatable results we all desire. Yet those jigs remain very popular. Which brings me to something I hear a lot about in cooking and blade forging communities that I don't hear much about here, and that is whetstone feedback.

    Often times what separates a good whetstone from a great whetstone is its feedback, or its ability to tell you if your angle is off by just a slight amount. It feels and sounds wrong if you don't hold that angle precise. And the best stones for this are often soft, water stones that need a long soak. And because they wear quickly and need a long soak before each use, they're not convenient for us woodworkers, who often don't have access to a sink in our workshop. So we're more likely to gravitate towards the splash and go stones or the diamond stones that have terrible feedback. If you've never had the pleasure of using a Naniwa Aotoishi, I recommend you try it one day if you ever get the opportunity, just to see what it's like. A good whetstone with excellent feedback will really teach you good techniques that you can take over to other stones with less excellent feedback. It'll make it more obvious what you're feeling and listening for and make your mistakes more apparent, like a good teacher who doesn't let you stray from the path.


    I now use sandpaper on plate glass myself, and while the feedback isn't as good as it is with most of my stones, the stones taught me what I'm looking for, so I only need subtle cues at this point. This way, I don't have to mess with flattening or soaking stones. And when I look at the whetstone being sold at places like Woodcraft and Rockler, I see a lot of diamond plates and Shapton stones. Shaptons are great stones; I own a few myself. But they're not exceptional at feedback. They tend to be too hard for that, as they prioritize durability and cut speed over feel. They're better for those with lots of experience than for someone who's still learning. In fact, I don't see any good beginner stones with good feedback at these woodworking stores.

    So is this why the sharpening jigs are so popular these days? To compensate for the difficult yet convenient whetstones we have access to? Not that there's anything wrong with that. Whatever works for you, obviously works and there are tradeoffs no matter which road you take. I'm just curious if this might explain the ubiquity of sharpening jigs among woodworkers, who probably sharpen several times a week, if not several times a day.

  2. #2
    Well, if there were not any sharpening jigs, then we would all sharpen by hand and eye. I do sharpen all of my lathe tools free hand, but I use jigs for chisels and plane irons, and I would guess that part of that is because I am new to the hand tools for flat work. As for what works best, more than anything, it is what works best for YOU. I prefer the diamond plates, and have a couple of the Shapton plates as well, Pretty simple to use, less muss and fuss. I may eventually go to free hand sharpening. I think it is interesting that for the Japanese style plane irons, when they sharpen them, many will go with the blade sideways on the stone rather than square across. I tried that once or twice, and it seems more simple. Add to this, the reason for jigs, is that there are many who are not doing it for a profession, but as a hobby. Freehand sharpening takes some practice, and developing a 'feel' for the edge being flat on the stone. Not every one can do that. Probably why most will sharpen their lathe tools in jigs...

    robo hippy

  3. #3
    I take your points about feedback, etc., but from what I see, folks just love to spend money on expensive, complicated gizmos.

  4. #4
    Not for me, I never owned a whetstone. For me I think it's more about easily maintaining the angle I want and faster sharpening because I don't lift up and reset for every stroke. The guide takes care of that. Before the guide, I sometimes got the angle too steep, I'm not sure. Maybe I needed to practice freehand more but I don't need to practice or feel anything with these guides. I love the results I get. Consistent and sharp, what more do I need.

  5. #5
    Feedback is often confusing, too many want to convince you their way is the best method.
    I personally prefer using quality jigs.
    Whether using a platform or jig for sharpening lathe tools at the grinder or using my MKII for sharpening straight edged tools on a flat surface, I like the consistency that a jig provides.
    I use sandpaper on a granite plate, because I don't need/want to maintain oil or water stones.
    I can sharpen freehand but choose not to. Just like I can mortise out a piece of timber with a chisel but a mortising machine gets me precise, straight sided mortises every time. A balance of time and ease of work, everyone has their own method.
    I also have edged tools that there really aren't any jigs for, so I have to hand sharpen, not a big deal.
    Sharpening is a simple concept and most want to make it far too complicate with their methods. At the end of the day, you just do what works for you.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Hutchings View Post
    Not for me, I never owned a whetstone. For me I think it's more about easily maintaining the angle I want and faster sharpening because I don't lift up and reset for every stroke. The guide takes care of that. Before the guide, I sometimes got the angle too steep, I'm not sure. Maybe I needed to practice freehand more but I don't need to practice or feel anything with these guides. I love the results I get. Consistent and sharp, what more do I need.
    I never lift the blade unless I can tell I've gotten way off my angle, which rarely happens. So there's almost no resetting. Just apply slight pressure on the front stroke and keep the angle but with slightly reduced pressure on the back stroke.

    Saying that you're not sure if you got the angle too steep is exactly my point. With a whetstone with good feedback, you'll know instantly. It feels different as you get off your angle. Too steep and you can feel the edge dig into the stone. To shallow and you can feel the change in resistance. If you're perfectly flat, you'll feel it glide smoothly and easily, and it'll want to stay on plane. And using a good whetstone teaches you what to feel for, because it's "louder". Then when you use a whetstone with poor feedback, you can more easily pick up on its subtle cues to stay on your angle.

    I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their ways. I'm just exploring my hypothesis that maybe the popularity of jigs is due to the choice of whetstones. Or maybe it's, as Cameron pointed out, it's our fascination with gizmos. I know I'm guilty of owning a few redundant tools because they're technically different.

  7. #7
    Yeah, I'm far from a pro. I'm not even a serious hobbyist. I mean, I work out of my unheated, un-airconditioned garage. And I could fit all of my woodworking tools in my wife's Miata, except for the bench, of course. So I don't have anywhere near the time spent sharpening plane irons and chisels as most of you here. But I do have lots of experience with sharpening in general, as it's something I've always done. Coming from a farming family, it's just something you're taught at a young age. And while planes and chisels are different from pocketknives and garden shears, there's still a lot of crossover. Though honestly, planes irons and chisels are a lot easier to sharpen because they're so much thicker that you get better feedback.

    I'll do the sideways sharpening from time to time, but I find it more difficult, as the feedback isn't as great. It definitely takes more skill. Though it is useful for spreading the working area so you don't wear or dish out the center of your surface too quickly. Then again, I don't do it as often, so that could also be why it's more difficult.

  8. #8
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    I almost never get involved in sharpening threads, every good woodworker I have even known has an opinion on the right way to sharpen and once they achieve some level of mastery, most are convinced that they have the best, or in some cases the only way to sharpen effectively. What seems like it should be a relatively simple task has been analyzed to death and is the subject of endless, often heated debates.

    I've been using diamond plates for the past 10 years or so. Before that it was scary sharp (Automotive papers on glass), before that it was India/Arkansas stones. About the only thing I didn't really seriously try was Water stones.

    In terms of feedback, I like the diamond plates, I like how flat they are and that helps with registering the tool to find the angle. I press down on the bevel near the tip, and with plane irons at least, the tool will stand on the bevel so you can see the angle. With chisels the handle is heavier and so you need to support it with your other hand. But you can feel when the bevel is flat against the stone. To me this helps quite a bit. In terms of actual feedback I can feel, especially with the coarser grits, it grinding, less so with the finer grits. I use coarse fine and extra fine on DMTs stones. Then stropping. This gives me an edge that for me is the right balance between sharpness and longevity of edge.

    I think folks like the guides, because they are fairly repeatable and very precise. But like all such things after doing it for awhile, you probably wouldn't need it. These days, the only time I ever use a guide is when I am rehabbing an old chisel, or regrinding after a nick or some other mishap.

  9. #9
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  10. #10
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    If can call anything "feedback" from a sharpening stone, it is its grinding action. I don't know how the angle a which you're holding the tool would be sensed through the stone under normal circumstances.

    If you've managed to create a large flat bevel, perhaps you can tell when you're not making full contact, that's unrelated to the quality of the stone, though. Also, single bevel sharpening is not a universal style.

    Rafael

  11. #11
    If you don't understand the audible, visual and tactile feedback you get from the tool when sharpening, you probably shouldn't be.
    Every method provides feedback, even jig based solutions. How you interpret what information you're getting is the key. Once you understand, you probably won't need to spend lots of time and money on sharpening.
    JMO

  12. #12
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    If you are referring to me, the OP said "tell you if your angle is off by just a slight amount". I still can't imagine how the quality of the stone can reveal that to you.

  13. #13
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    What do you sharpen with, without a whetstone?
    ~mike

    happy in my mud hut

  14. #14
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    I use different media. Mainly a washita stone and a strop. When necessary, I use a guide, bench grinder, crystolon, India, diamond stone, or sandpaper. I don't use water stones.

  15. #15
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    Ahhhh yea, whet means "to sharpen", it doesn't indicate a water stone. I grew up with all whetstones being oil stones. I moved to water stones, because they cut so much faster.

    I like a jig on small blades that I can't otherwise get good registration with.
    ~mike

    happy in my mud hut

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