mixing grain cutting vs chess boards

[Charlie Fox]

I understand with a cutting board that mixing grains is a bad idea - the board goes through wet/dry cycles everytime is is used then washed, and people often only wash the used side of the board and lay it flat to dry - i always instruct the recipients of my boards to wash both sides equally and stand it up to dry.

and i have been told by those that make a lot of cutting boards that putting a cross grain border is a bad idea - and i get it - and i have made several dozed end grain and an equal number of face'edge grain boards. but no borders......

so i have made a chess board with a border. i am told it is going to crack. period. there are people who say they use cross grain borders with no problem. seriously two totally opposite sides to this.

BUT:

consider this:

1) a chess board is not going to get wet. pretty much will be inside a controled climate all its life
2) cutting boards dont get a finish. just oil. so water penetrates deeper when wet, and humidity as well.
3) i realize polyurethane is not a complete seal, but 3-4 coats of poly equally on all sides of the board will seal the pores somewhat and reduce the amount of moisture, how much who knows, but clearly it will seal better than no finish as well as better than just mineral oil. so its is sealed somewhat and will never get wet.

so my point is if it takes x amount of moisture to cause y amount of movement that will fail, then x/2 amount of moisture will not cause enough movement to cause failure.

i have also had some say that maybe it wont crack, but there will/may/could be other movement such that you will feel the joint if one side swells/shrinks - like a little lip - and i could live with that.
also consider that only the ends - in this case the walnut - borders are cross grain. the maple on the side is parallel to the face grain of the board

so wondering if anyone has any experience to share considering all the above - please see photos to illustrate my description

the basics: 1.25" thick, walnut and hard maple, though i also sumetimes use white oak and ash, squares are 2.25", total dimensions about 21x21". all glued with TBIII

[Richard Coers]

Plenty of moisture changes due to the seasons to cause your board to crack. If not the first couple of years, sometime in the future. Seasonal wood movement allowance is the most basic rule of wood construction.

[Jim Becker]

The "trick" is to use very thin pieces of the various contrasting material, no matter what the grain and put it on a stable substrate. The thickness shouldn't be more than .25" but preferably thinner so it's more of a veneer than blocks of wood and it should be a lot less prone to seasonal movement issues.

[andrew whicker]

Experimental data is the only absolute way of knowing the truth. All else is essentially theory (based on other similar experiments hopefully). So I guess just let us know how it turns out in a few years? 10 years? Etc. Even then there is "who knows" factor that can never be accounted for and you may just get lucky.

To me, the point of "over engineering" a piece of work is to ensure you don't have a failure some time long in the future. Imagine you make 50 of these over the spanning 10 years and then find out the first one you made fails. Now you have 49 more just waiting to fail?

The point being, by the time you see the failure you may have also used the same techniques in that time span in between. So now what? We don't live long enough to really get data on each piece we make and then change our techniques. We can only really use over kill engineering from experience of others before us.

In the chess board case, you may be right. It's small, stays in the same environment, doesn't get abused, you could get lucky, etc. However, even then, a positive outcome does not necessarily correspond to correct decision making.

[Charlie Fox]

i agree and i know thats how commercially produced boards are made, but takes away the whole desireability of solid wood. my aim is that the board will be far less vulnerable to issues seing that it has a finish and will not get wet, so movement is from climatic factors only. i see it like this - if i applied a 1/4" thick layer of lacquer it would be fully sealed and never fail, and if i didnt put anything at all on it and left it outside it would crack and warp to the high heavens - so somewhere in between is a goldilocks zone.

so what type of failure would you predict? cracking along the walnut border joint? or movement along the same or all joints where it is just a little uneven?

[Richard Coers]

i agree and i know thats how commercially produced boards are made, but takes away the whole desireability of solid wood. my aim is that the board will be far less vulnerable to issues seing that it has a finish and will not get wet, so movement is from climatic factors only. i see it like this - if i applied a 1/4" thick layer of lacquer it would be fully sealed and never fail, and if i didnt put anything at all on it and left it outside it would crack and warp to the high heavens - so somewhere in between is a goldilocks zone.

so what type of failure would you predict? cracking along the walnut border joint? or movement along the same or all joints where it is just a little uneven?

1/4" of lacquer is a disaster in itself. Lacquer is very brittle and will crack easier than the wood. What is 1/4" of lacquer, 100 coats? Go ahead, break the rules. You wouldn't be the first one.
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[Kent A Bathurst]

Shrinkulator says with 35% rh >> 65% rh [the range where I live], 18" of HM will move 3/8" tangential, and 18" of black walnut 2/8". So over a years cycle, the parts will be moving in and out at that differential. I didn't address the borders, because the cross-grain walnut border is going to try to keep the board from moving 3/8". That's the first failure. KJerblooey.

So you pays yer money and takes yer picks. Also, consider the intended destination, I had a friend/neighbor/client commission an A&C dining room out of QSWO, Drawbored breadboard ends. Lovely for the first 3 years, then they moved to St Louis. Where, I came to learn, the RH goes to, like, nothing in the winter. My peg slots did not accommodate that, so on a trip there I had to rejigger it. 3/16" split at one place in a 42" wide table.

I don't get the point about "he whole desirability of solid wood". The finest museums in the land have veneered furniture pieces from centuries ago

You're trying to talk yourself into this. That's fine, but you don't seem to be getting anyone jumping on the wagon with you. But you can always say "It's solid wood"

[Charlie Fox]

that was just an example, i would never do that. you totally missed the whole point

[Kent A Bathurst]

that was just an example, i would never do that. you totally missed the whole point

Richard or I missed the point?

Could be either one - we generally do when engaging each other

[Richard Coers]

that was just an example, i would never do that. you totally missed the whole point

How would I know you would never do that? You are working hard to support your build ignoring the laws of wood movement. Is your question about what fails just an example too? I thought the whole point was will your chessboard crack. What part did I miss?

[Jim Morgan]

The "desirability of solid wood" is a destructive myth.

First, wood is hygroscopic, changing in dimension with changes in ambient humidity. Applying film finishes may retard the process, but it will not completely prevent it: wood WILL move. And since it moves in width but generally not in length, cross-grain constructions of any appreciable thickness will inevitably and invariably lead to cracking.

Second, using solid wood in the application you desire is a waste of a fast-dwindling resource.

Veneer over an engineered substrate (plywood, mdf, etc.) offers much greater stability and longevity, and veneers are a more economical and sustainable source for exotic woods and stunning grain patterns that may be impossible to find in the solid.

[Charlie Fox]

wow guys, settle down - the board is already made so no going back on it. i was mainly asking in the OP "wondering if anyone has any experience to share considering all the above"
so apparently no one does.

my next point is i already have a fair amount of 6/4 walnut and white oak so i will either make cutting boards or chess boards. i prefer the chess at this point.

a chess board is basically a form of cutting board by construction. my cutting boards have lasted many years with LOTS of wet/dry cycles even in my daughters old leaky farmhouse with less than desireable controlled climate in Texas.

so yeah - i am fixed on making this work, and i think my arguement that it wont go through wet/dry constantly and it is partially sealed so the amount of moisture penetrating the wood IS REDUCED significamntly holds at least some water. clearly some of your opinions differ.

i have a 10 year old mesquite natural edge coffee table with cross grain ends - glues with epoxy. still perfect but of curse some of you eill say just wait another year.

so one question unanswered was where and how do you think it will fail?

it was suggested in a cutting board group that i should maybe make the end border using several pieces of stock oriented the same way, that way the dised and the ends all have face grain running up and down.

or - it was suggested by a guy at Woodcraft that i could fit the ends with a brass strip similar to a T&G breadboard, gluing each side only to the brass so the wood can float each other.

think i'll consider each, i'll get back to you all in a few years.

[Charlie Fox]

The "desirability of solid wood" is a destructive myth.

First, wood is hygroscopic, changing in dimension with changes in ambient humidity. Applying film finishes may retard the process, but it will not completely prevent it: wood WILL move. And since it moves in width but generally not in length, cross-grain constructions of any appreciable thickness will inevitably and invariably lead to cracking.

Second, using solid wood in the application you desire is a waste of a fast-dwindling resource.

Veneer over an engineered substrate (plywood, mdf, etc.) offers much greater stability and longevity, and veneers are a more economical and sustainable source for exotic woods and stunning grain patterns that may be impossible to find in the solid.

by this logic we should start making cutting boards with substrate. let me know how that goes over.

"desirability of solid wood" is a myth? maybe not sustainable but far from a myth. why do people desire 1.5 and 2" thick end grain cutting boards? dont see many 3/4" out there. face grain maybe but thats it. i even make those, but my ~18x24"x1.5" end grain boards are the most coveted by friends and family that buy them. maybe i'll make one with a baltic birch backing and see how that sells. or maybe not.

[Charlie Fox]

i'm thinking i should ask for my $6 back....LOL

[Cameron Wood]

The "desirability of solid wood" is a destructive myth.

First, wood is hygroscopic, changing in dimension with changes in ambient humidity. Applying film finishes may retard the process, but it will not completely prevent it: wood WILL move. And since it moves in width but generally not in length, cross-grain constructions of any appreciable thickness will inevitably and invariably lead to cracking.

Second, using solid wood in the application you desire is a waste of a fast-dwindling resource.

Veneer over an engineered substrate (plywood, mdf, etc.) offers much greater stability and longevity, and veneers are a more economical and sustainable source for exotic woods and stunning grain patterns that may be impossible to find in the solid.

I don't agree with this. The biggest and most perfect trees are cut to make veneer, which goes to make endless miles of crap.