Slider Table Saws to consider?

[Derek Cohen]

I have been very happy with my Hammer machines, however one of the reasons I purchased them in the first place is that there is a Felder agent in my town, while Minimax are not represented. Felder have been fantastic with support when needed, ensured that the machines (slider, combo jointer/thicknesser, bandsaw) were set up perfectly at the outset), and promptly respond to my phone calls and emails. They are like family.

Minimax may or may not turn out a better product, but peace of mind is something which cannot be purchased. This is the tipping point in a close decision such as Felder vs Minimax.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark e Kessler]

Michael, are you planning to rip on this saw as well as using the slider capacity? I work in a small (8-10 people) production shop and we have a Hammer K3L as well as a Felder 700 shaper. They both get a decent amount of use and abuse. The saw sees 750-1000 hours a year and the shaper probably 400-500 hours just so you have an idea. I don't think I'd recommend going down the Felder family route based on o

Pretty sure that Hammer saw wasn’t designed to see that many hours, you should be in the 900 series min with those hours and number of peeps…

[Michael Drew]

Michael, both SCM/MiniMax and Felder/Hammer are not tools that you'll generally find in "stores", although there are some distributors for the former out there. Erik can point you to the Felder resource for your geography and I suggest you contact Sam Blasco for SCM/Minimax. He's the brand champion for the US and physically not to far away from Austin TX. Erik is coincidentally in the Austin area, too. IE...shipping is part of the process. Freight isn't as much as you'd expect compared to the cost/value of the tool, however.

Thanks for the contact info. I'll be making a few phone calls this week. Large freight to AK generally involves a barge from Tacoma. Most other shipping methods involve air, even FedEx/UPS "ground" shipments go air.

The store I get my hardware and specialty woods from also sells wood working tools and machines, like Festool and SawStop, Powermatic (not sure about SCM or Hammer). They generally place an order for machines every month, so the freight costs are not too bad going through them. Otherwise, I'm kinda on my own figuring out the logistics.

Rod Sheridan, - good to know about the Hammer options. Do you have any pictures of how you set up your Winner with outfeed and dust control?

[Brian Burns VT]

Mark Kessler, fully agree with you on the hours logged. We've been very busy so just a data point and context. Love the functionality of the saw beyond the specific complaints

[Greg Quenneville]

To dust off an old phrase, I think of Felder as “Saw maker to the gentry”. As opposed to “the trade”.

I have had three Felder saws and been satisfied, but I am a hobbyist. I would hate to have to make a living cutting sheets with one, for the reasons already mentioned. Perhaps the 900 series or Format 4 might be better, but by then you are close to the price range of a Martin. For a one man custom studio type shop a Felder would be fine.

A word on blades: there are other sources for blades for Felder or other Euro saws with the 30mm arbor. Tenryu is one, and well regarded by U.S. Felder owners.

[Jim Becker]

I suspect most major quality blade manufacturers produce blades with the Felder-compatible bore and pin holes. You will not find them on "retail shelves" but they are either orderable in-stock or special order, depending on the manufacturer/vendor chosen.

[Joe Hendershott]

Don't rule out used 4e. Just happen to know a guy with a nearly new one about to go on the market .

[Mark e Kessler]

The 900 series on up is definitely more trade oriented, I had the 700 and would not buy that one if i was in still in business, the 940 is a pretty beg step in build. If i needed more than a k940 I would be looking at Altendorf and Martin that said there are more than likely thousands of Felder saws of all varieties in service all over the world

As far as blades, I have all Freud industrial which I believe makes some of the Felder blades but there is another company that makes some of the blades for Freud and Felder as well, can’t remember the name right now…

[Mark e Kessler]

I believe the felder pin holes are 2/9/46, most industrial saw blades come bored for Martin, Felder, Altendorf and others, you can spot them as these are usually double drilled or elongated holes and the patterns they cover are 2/7/42, 2/9/46 & 2/10/60, one of the nice things about the k940 and up is that the pins actually go into the arbor and not through the plate so you only need the 30 mm bore.

[Erik Loza]

Pretty sure that Hammer saw wasn’t designed to see that many hours…

This is correct ^^^

Based on that previous statement, no surprise that the machine is having issues. That's like asking a Toyota Tacoma to be a Tundra. It's not the right truck if you plan to be towing trailers every day. And to be fair, no other machine of similar spec would do any better. Jumping brands could be a choice but if someone is thinking that something of similar spec/price point from a different manufacturer will somehow perform better, they will be disappointed. Bottom line: "Production" means you need a bigger machine.

Also, I have lost track of how many times a pro shop and I have been having a conversation and I tell them, "Based on your needs, there are the machines I would suggest...", and they still buy something too small. Big eyes, small budget/couldn't wait so took what was in stock/etc. So the machine works OK for a while but customer is disappointed in the long run. Is that really the machine's fault? Not saying this is the case with gentleman here but it's a pretty common scenario.

Erik

[Joe Jensen]

I switched from cabinet saw to long stroke slider and shaper combo in 2010. I would hate to go back. So many things are much more precisely done on my slider. Lots of good advice here. One I'd emphasize is support. I have not needed tech support for my three (KF700SP, F700Z, and 540 bandsaw) Felder machines. My sales rep is based in California and I am in Arizona. I have ordered bits and things and he has always been super responsive. If I were moving regions and had to buy new my #1 consideration would be support. I have a friend in Canada who has a really nice shop. Martin, SCM, Griggio, etc. The support he gets from all is downright horrible. Brand new SCM 24" bandsaw missing a part needed to tension the blade. After 2 weeks of zero support he ended up having a local machine shop fabricate one. I would talk with sales, parts, and support techs for all companies before ordering.

[Michael Drew]

A new addition to the list - Laguna P12/5. My go-to store sells Laguna, Jet and Powermatic. Probably more money than I was looking to spend, and a bit larger than the others I've been looking at, but at least I'd have local'ish support.

[Brian Burns VT]

This is correct ^^^

Based on that previous statement, no surprise that the machine is having issues. That's like asking a Toyota Tacoma to be a Tundra. It's not the right truck if you plan to be towing trailers every day. And to be fair, no other machine of similar spec would do any better. Jumping brands could be a choice but if someone is thinking that something of similar spec/price point from a different manufacturer will somehow perform better, they will be disappointed. Bottom line: "Production" means you need a bigger machine.

Also, I have lost track of how many times a pro shop and I have been having a conversation and I tell them, "Based on your needs, there are the machines I would suggest...", and they still buy something too small. Big eyes, small budget/couldn't wait so took what was in stock/etc. So the machine works OK for a while but customer is disappointed in the long run. Is that really the machine's fault? Not saying this is the case with gentleman here but it's a pretty common scenario.

Erik

Erik, again, I totally agree with this for the saw and, for our situation, our production significantly ramped up after the purchase and so it goes. Just trying to share our experience with two machines that are in the same price and quality range as many of our other machines and they are the only machines that suffer any of these problems. It's pretty consistent and I would certainly want to know that if I were the OP about to spend a good amount of money. Again, these problems started very soon after purchase at a time when we were not logging nearly the hours on them. What would you say a comfortable number of hours/week or year a shop should be able to run a Felder F700 shaper or Hammer slider without issue? I don't feel like 10-12 hours/week for this shaper or saw is asking too
much

[Erik Loza]

Erik, again, I totally agree with this for the saw and, for our situation, our production significantly ramped up after the purchase and so it goes. Just trying to share our experience with two machines that are in the same price and quality range as many of our other machines and they are the only machines that suffer any of these problems. It's pretty consistent and I would certainly want to know that if I were the OP about to spend a good amount of money. Again, these problems started very soon after purchase at a time when we were not logging nearly the hours on them. What would you say a comfortable number of hours/week or year a shop should be able to run a Felder F700 shaper or Hammer slider without issue? I don't feel like 10-12 hours/week for this shaper or saw is asking too
much

That kind of usage shouldn't be an issue for either of those machines but there are "hobbyist hours" and then there are "production shop hours". What I observe is that home ww'ers generally maintain their equipment a lot better than that most shops. So, while something like 500 hobbyist hours on a Hammer K3 is probably no big deal, 500 shop hours would be and a K3 is definitely not geared for a production environment. Again, not quarterbacking your specific situation but just sharing what I have seen. F700s are our smallest Felder shapers and what I would categorize as an entry-level professional unit at most. Out of curiosity, what were the electrical issues you experienced?

Erik

[Michael Drew]

Probably due to the holidays, but I still have not heard from SCM reps that I've sent inquiries to. The Felder/Hammer rep and I have been bouncing emails back and forth, mostly dealing with shipping options. This is gunna be expensive.......shipping quotes are ranging between $1600 and $3500.

The Hammer saws are anticipated to arrive in California middle June or July. There are some sales going on, but if it's July before it ships, I won't mess around with it till Sept/Oct, due to my 'summer' projects that will have me busy. There is about a 2K price increase if I go with a Felder K500P over the Hammer 79/48. Not sure if it's worth it? Those Felders sure do look like fine machines though..... I'd hate to get one dirty.

I've been reading a lot of unpleasant stories about Laguna customer support, so I may just ditch that option.