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Thread: 30mm vs 40mm bore size for new shaper

  1. #31
    For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

    25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.


    I just want to know what he plans to do with them. If it's a trophy shop just because he can, nothing wrong with that. If he wants a full kit of Martins plus two big bandsaws he'll probably want a bigger shop. If he can't decide between the panel saw and shaper vs two bandsaws and a tracksaw it rouses my curiosity.

    For what it's worth, I have a 720 sq. ft. machine room with a 2.5 m. slider, 16" jointer and planer, 36" bandsaw, medium duty shaper, chopsaw, edge sander, slot mortiser, lathe, spindle sander, plywood rack, wood stove and enough room to maneuver materials and finished work. What it lacks is assembly and finishing space which happens elsewhere. I'm sure Jason can fit his projected machines into the space available. More room would be a plus for sure, if possible.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 12-11-2021 at 8:30 AM.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Northern Michigan
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    4,973
    It would seem to me being as the spindles are interchangeable that the answer is to buy all three sizes. I have four for my shaper. I run large tenoning disks on 9 HP and it does not slow down, so I would say that 10 is fine. Exciting stuff you have going on, congrats.

  3. #33
    Not trying to butt back in but “if” that Martin saw is 480V, that means it has a DC electrospindle-type motor rather than a traditional induction motor. I have a customer with a Kappa 590E (also DC motor, same class as T75) who probably is a similar type of buyer to the OP. He got talked into that machine by a former rep and told me that he now regrets not getting something a little more sane. Apparently, it doesn’t cut your standard sheet goods or 8/4, 12/4, etc. lumber very well. The way the rpm range is geared on that thing, even dialed up all the way, blade speed is not quite fast enough to get good cuts with 12” or 14” blades. This never would have occurred to me unless someone mentioned it or, I guess, I ran into it myself but point being, machines this size/spec are designed for a specific task and in the case of the K590E or that Martin, it’s for cutting huge architectural timbers with an 18” or 20” blade, not our vanilla 12” or 14” blades.

    Now, I suppose the VFD could be reprogrammed but regardless, this thing is a Formula-1 car and there wiil be a price to pay for trying to make it a daily driver. Since dado got mentioned, how will it cut with a 10” dado stack or even a 300mm slotting cutter? You want run an 18” blade on it for everday use? Everyone’s wallet is their own and they should buy what they want but the rubber hits the road at some point.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Not trying to butt back in but “if” that Martin saw is 480V, that means it has a DC electrospindle-type motor rather than a traditional induction motor. I have a customer with a Kappa 590E (also DC motor, same class as T75) who probably is a similar type of buyer to the OP. He got talked into that machine by a former rep and told me that he now regrets not getting something a little more sane. Apparently, it doesn’t cut your standard sheet goods or 8/4, 12/4, etc. lumber very well. The way the rpm range is geared on that thing, even dialed up all the way, blade speed is not quite fast enough to get good cuts with 12” or 14” blades. This never would have occurred to me unless someone mentioned it or, I guess, I ran into it myself but point being, machines this size/spec are designed for a specific task and in the case of the K590E or that Martin, it’s for cutting huge architectural timbers with an 18” or 20” blade, not our vanilla 12” or 14” blades.

    Now, I suppose the VFD could be reprogrammed but regardless, this thing is a Formula-1 car and there wiil be a price to pay for trying to make it a daily driver. Since dado got mentioned, how will it cut with a 10” dado stack or even a 300mm slotting cutter? You want run an 18” blade on it for everday use? Everyone’s wallet is their own and they should buy what they want but the rubber hits the road at some point.

    Erik
    I think the variable speed motor is still a traditional induction motor. I don't see anything that indicates otherwise but I will ask.

    The T70 without the variable speed motor runs the blade at 2800, 4000, or 5000 rpm using a 240V 3-phase motor and a typical belt change system. Upgrading to the variable speed motor (which the T75 always has) requires 480V and runs the blade at 2000 to 6000 rpm. For comparison the base model Martin saw (T60) runs at fixed speeds in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range.

    The T70 and T75 do support a blade up to 550mm diameter (nearly 22") but it requires the scoring unit to come out and I don't think the blade guards can be used. The default blade is 350mm (a bit under 14").

    The T70 supports a dado up to 20mm wide (a bit over 3/4"). The T75 is limited to 6mm because of the left tilt ability. Similarly configured the T75 costs 10% more than a T70 to gain that dual tilt ability but it loses the dado capacity. I think I know which way I'm going, but I'm still unsure about the variable speed motor (more so with the shaper).

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Ouray Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Not trying to butt back in but “if” that Martin saw is 480V, that means it has a DC electrospindle-type motor rather than a traditional induction motor. I have a customer with a Kappa 590E (also DC motor, same class as T75) who probably is a similar type of buyer to the OP. He got talked into that machine by a former rep and told me that he now regrets not getting something a little more sane. Apparently, it doesn’t cut your standard sheet goods or 8/4, 12/4, etc. lumber very well. The way the rpm range is geared on that thing, even dialed up all the way, blade speed is not quite fast enough to get good cuts with 12” or 14” blades. This never would have occurred to me unless someone mentioned it or, I guess, I ran into it myself but point being, machines this size/spec are designed for a specific task and in the case of the K590E or that Martin, it’s for cutting huge architectural timbers with an 18” or 20” blade, not our vanilla 12” or 14” blades.

    Now, I suppose the VFD could be reprogrammed but regardless, this thing is a Formula-1 car and there wiil be a price to pay for trying to make it a daily driver. Since dado got mentioned, how will it cut with a 10” dado stack or even a 300mm slotting cutter? You want run an 18” blade on it for everday use? Everyone’s wallet is their own and they should buy what they want but the rubber hits the road at some point.

    Erik
    Neither the T75 saw or T27shaper is an electro spindle and won’t have any of the problems you mention

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Ouray Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCray View Post
    I think the variable speed motor is still a traditional induction motor. I don't see anything that indicates otherwise but I will ask.

    The T70 without the variable speed motor runs the blade at 2800, 4000, or 5000 rpm using a 240V 3-phase motor and a typical belt change system. Upgrading to the variable speed motor (which the T75 always has) requires 480V and runs the blade at 2000 to 6000 rpm. For comparison the base model Martin saw (T60) runs at fixed speeds in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range.

    The T70 and T75 do support a blade up to 550mm diameter (nearly 22") but it requires the scoring unit to come out and I don't think the blade guards can be used. The default blade is 350mm (a bit under 14").

    The T70 supports a dado up to 20mm wide (a bit over 3/4"). The T75 is limited to 6mm because of the left tilt ability. Similarly configured the T75 costs 10% more than a T70 to gain that dual tilt ability but it loses the dado capacity. I think I know which way I'm going, but I'm still unsure about the variable speed motor (more so with the shaper).
    Jason
    i can understand no dado capacity in the T75 as it tilts both ways. They have lost a little capacity on the newer saws but 20 mm should be workable. My 20 year old T72 has about 35mm dado or shaper tooling capacity but a bit of a chore to set it up. You have to remove the throat plate and remove a spacer from the spindle. Super clean cuts are possible though with adjustable groovers. Part of my motive for restoring the old T17 is that it is easy to set up a dado or shaper cutter up to about 65mm plus wide.
    the T72 will take a 20” blade and yes the scoring blade and its guard have to be removed. Not a huge chore. I don’t use the 20” often but when I do set it at the low speed. Normally I run a 14” blade as I build a lot of 3” thick doors and windows. 12” blade works well for most cabinet work. Last picture is from the newer saw with adjustable groover tilted.
    B54F54B7-7486-46FB-9AFD-8157DB540218.jpg
    B54F54B7-7486-46FB-9AFD-8157DB540218.jpg12ACE797-C1C8-468C-BA9C-34A06C451A0A.jpg

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Calhoon View Post
    Neither the T75 saw or T27shaper is an electro spindle and won’t have any of the problems you mention
    Just curious: Why would it be 480V then?

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCray View Post
    I think the variable speed motor is still a traditional induction motor. I don't see anything that indicates otherwise but I will ask
    If the machine is 480V, that means it’s supplied with a transformer (we do the same) and the only reason you would supply a transformer is if you are supplying a DC motor for stepless rpm control. Just like a CNC router. I rarely see new Martin machines in shops in my area but I would assume they use the same motor technology as everyone else in this regard?

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Western PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCray View Post
    The T75 can be configured with a rip capacity as small as 850mm and a slider as short as 1.9m. I was going to do 1350mm rip and 3.3m slider. How big is your Felder?

    The high end SCM L'Invincible with a dual tilting blade doesn't support dado sets at all, so it must be related to the +-45 arbor tilt. The T70 that tilts only to the right will take tooling up to 20mm wide.

    Ah, the dual tilt makes a lot of sense. My Felder is an 80" table with 36" rip capacity. Both are dumb setups for a single saw shop. Its why i added a little Oliver 232 for most of my longer solid wood rips, but really, i would be better served with just one sliding table saw with a 10' table and 48-49" rip. I do use 3/4"+/- wide dados in the Felder somewhat often. To be honest, it would be a bummer to be limited to 1/4" dados on my only saw in the shop. What do you lose on the T70 that the T75 has? Other than dual tilt. I havent experience a need for beveling the blade one direction versus the other, and i have to think i would prefer the wider dado capacity.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Kane View Post
    Ah, the dual tilt makes a lot of sense. My Felder is an 80" table with 36" rip capacity. Both are dumb setups for a single saw shop. Its why i added a little Oliver 232 for most of my longer solid wood rips, but really, i would be better served with just one sliding table saw with a 10' table and 48-49" rip. I do use 3/4"+/- wide dados in the Felder somewhat often. To be honest, it would be a bummer to be limited to 1/4" dados on my only saw in the shop. What do you lose on the T70 that the T75 has? Other than dual tilt. I havent experience a need for beveling the blade one direction versus the other, and i have to think i would prefer the wider dado capacity.
    The T75 might have a slightly larger base table but otherwise just the dual tilt. At the cost of the dado capacity and 240V fixed speed motor option that the T70 offers (the T70 can still do the larger variable speed motors if desired).

    The T70 also has an option for a motorized crosscut fence which even I think might be a step too far.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCray View Post
    The T70 also has an option for a motorized crosscut fence which even I think might be a step too far.
    Oh come on, it's just a one time expense. Might as well get the vacuslide table as well.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Just curious: Why would it be 480V then?

    Erik
    Martin requires any machines with variable speed to be 480 volt here.

  13. #43
    Join Date
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    Haha, I love how many of you are living vicariously thru this person's shop budget.



    On an honest note, depending on where you live, you may be able to take a "personal projects" class a local college that is stacked with super nice equipment. A lot of retired people do that here (along w/ having their own woodshops) and get to work on projects with top of the line drum sanders, rip saws, sliding saws, jointers, planers, shapers, cnc, etc.
    Last edited by andrew whicker; 12-11-2021 at 8:00 PM.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
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    531
    I took delivery of a SCM TI145 spindle moulder around mid of this year, I was so happy with the moulder, 2 months after receiving the moulder I put down the deposit for a L'Invincibile si X saw (the one tilts both way), I am a one man shop with a full time job not related to woodworking, woodworking is only a source of income so I can buy better machine/tools, and my workshop is where I spend my weekend/after hours.

    my spindle moulder is 7.5kw, 9kw was optional but 7.5kw is plenty for what I do. it has a interchangeable spindle, I have 30 mm spindle on mine, automated fence, rise, angle.

    40mm tooling are available with most tooling supplier but they are mostly indented/special order, sometimes it may take awhile for these to be made, and 30mm tooling are often off the shelf.

    If your spindle moulder comes with side table then it will requires a big space to operate, ie, when cutting angled tenon, my workshop is 9 m x 6m (600sqft), the operating manual says I need 8 x 5m(500sqft) to operate the spindle moulder comfortably..

    We dont have Martin here in New Zealand, otherwise I might consider Martin - it seems my L'Invincibile saw costed more than a T75 Prex...

    Any regret buying a big spindle moulder for a home shop? yes - there is only one, The SCM is so well made that I should have bought top of the line L'Invincibile. if you are spending $ on big machinery like this you must know it is entirely possible that you might upgrade on a later date, its only $$.

    some photos of me preparing to do flooring.

    fl2.jpgfl3.jpg

    I had to pull the SM forward to carry out angled tenon cut.
    move1.jpgmove3.jpg

    On a side note - 4 months after I paid my deposit for my L'Invicibile, SCM announced their new control panel for their machines, touch screen and modernised compare to previous control panel. I emailed SCM NZ, long story short, I can upgrade my control panel to the newer version but there will be a delay of 2 months - I am fine with this

    panel1.jpgpanel2.jpg

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Lee View Post
    If your spindle moulder comes with side table then it will requires a big space to operate, ie, when cutting angled tenon, my workshop is 9 m x 6m (600sqft), the operating manual says I need 8 x 5m(500sqft) to operate the spindle moulder comfortably..

    We dont have Martin here in New Zealand, otherwise I might consider Martin - it seems my L'Invincibile saw costed more than a T75 Prex...

    Any regret buying a big spindle moulder for a home shop? yes - there is only one, The SCM is so well made that I should have bought top of the line L'Invincibile. if you are spending $ on big machinery like this you must know it is entirely possible that you might upgrade on a later date, its only $$.
    panel1.jpgpanel2.jpg
    Would you still do the side mounted sliding table if you were just doing this as a hobby (one-off projects)? My limitation, like yours, is space, but it doesn't look like the sliding table on the Martin or the SCM takes up any more space than the side extension table when it isn't in use.

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