A few "easy" Arkansas Stones questions: Translucent vs Surgical Black

[Warren Mickley]

If you use water stones, use the translucent as a nagura. It'll stay very fresh.

If you abrade the translucent stone, it will cut faster, but lose its effectiveness as a polisher. There is no point in degrading an expensive stone. These are not water stones, where you want fresh grit. If you want a coarser stone than a translucent, try a soft Arkansas or a Washita stone. Or some kind of water stone.

[Tom M King]

I've never done any flattening, or abrading, of my Black stones. The old one had gotten so nasty that it couldn't be handled without getting smudges transferred. It's been several years since I cleaned it, and don't exactly remember what I used to clean it, but it was some sort of spray cleaner-probably either carburetor cleaner, or brake cleaner.

It's definitely a polisher, and probably won't do anything noticeable unless following the other stones in a progression. Each finer one does get the edge progressively sharper though.

[michael langman]

It is important to always use a good thin honing oil every time you use the translucent stones, or any Arkansas Stone. You do not need much, but cover the entire stone.
If the steel being sharpened or polished id in the low 50's on the rockwell scale or less then the stones can clogged.
As Warren said they polish more then cut. The hard white Arkansas stones which are cheaper should be used after the softer medium stone, and before the translucents.
The translucents will seem slippery after much use but still polish.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I am not a sharpening guru, but the “hard” grade from Dan’s (in between the “soft” and the “true hard”) is a pretty nice stone. I have an india stone for my coarser stone, but 90% of the time it is not needed.

The india stones Norton makes are much cheaper than trying to find a Washita. I have an 8x3 and I think it cost $20. Norton also has the “carborundum” line, but for what I do the India stones work really well.

If you abrade the translucent stone, it will cut faster, but lose its effectiveness as a polisher. There is no point in degrading an expensive stone. These are not water stones, where you want fresh grit. If you want a coarser stone than a translucent, try a soft Arkansas or a Washita stone. Or some kind of water stone.

[Matt Lau]

The dental technicians at my dentist office sharpen their tools, sometimes during a cleaning session. They do sterilize their tools between patients.

Are your stones 1/2" thick?

Many years ago one of the Woodcraft sets was purchased. It never seemed that great a set to me. With a Dan's hard Arkansas, a dark translucent purchased at a gem and mineral show and a piece of jasper used as a polisher, my blades can get an edge pretty close to what my 8000 Norton water stone can achieve.

My recent order from Dan's Whetstones should be hear later this week or next. Ordered a soft 8X3X1" a couple of slipstones and an 8X3X1/2" black Arkansas Ultra Fine.

jtk

They're dental hygienists--the dental technicians might take offense. :P
The Hygienists *definitely* will take offense, as they're a prickly lot. ;0

In most dental programs, a small black arkansas honing stone would be included for sharpening scalers.
The one I got wouldn't hone worth anything.
I've ended up using small ceramic slip stones for my office.

The older stones that I inherited....are pretty great.

[Jim Koepke]

They're dental hygienists--the dental technicians might take offense. :P
The Hygienists *definitely* will take offense, as they're a prickly lot. ;0

Sorry, they usually introduce themselves by name and not their job title. My mistake was in assigning a title instead of just saying the women at my dentist office use a stone to hone their tools during a cleaning session.

jtk

[ken hatch]

It is important to always use a good thin honing oil every time you use the translucent stones, or any Arkansas Stone. You do not need much, but cover the entire stone.
If the steel being sharpened or polished id in the low 50's on the rockwell scale or less then the stones can clogged.
As Warren said they polish more then cut. The hard white Arkansas stones which are cheaper should be used after the softer medium stone, and before the translucents.
The translucents will seem slippery after much use but still polish.

Michael,

The Hard White is a great stone, it can be a finish stone but its greatest value is as a set up for either the Hard Black or Translucent.

ken

[Dave Zellers]

Michael,

The Hard White is a great stone, it can be a finish stone but its greatest value is as a set up for either the Hard Black or Translucent.

ken

I don't have much to add to this discussion except that I bought a large Black Arkansas from Dan's Whetstones maybe a year ago and WOW. Just Wow. With my chisels and plane irons, I do all the preliminary sharpening on Shapton water stones usually using a honing guide and then I finish on the black Arkansas with oil. I don't find any problems moving from water to oil in the same sharpening process. I finish freehand on the black Ark with maybe 1-2 dozen light strokes. Then a leather strop and oh my goodness, be careful where you put your finger. I really didn't have any complaints after my 12,000 Shapton, but something made me want to try a black Arkansas so I did, and I'm glad I did. it's amazing. When you bring hard Arkansas stones into your process, you have to forget about grit comparisons. It's crazy hard, crazy smooth and polishes to a mean bevel. It is the final stone now, every time.

Acknowledging the forum, I know there is at least a level above this. Not ever going there. I can't believe I even went this far...

[Tony Zaffuto]

Arkansas stones are polishing stones. They are not good at removing material. In the 18th century natural water stones were used to remove material and oil stones were used to polish the edge.

Warren,

Are you including Washita's in the Arkansas category? Have you any experience with modern Norton soft Arkansas stones? For the record, I freehand on either Spyderco ceramics or a much cherished Washita then a black Arkansas and occasionally a strop while using tools. Choice of stones is dependent on steel in the chisel or blade.

[Warren Mickley]

Tony, I have a soft Arkansas stone which I have used on every edge since 1983. It is so well worn that it can be used as a finishing stone. I sometimes end with that stone, sometimes with a black. I don't think it is a Norton soft Arkansas.

There is a diversity of Washita stones, and I am not familiar with them all. The one I use the most I generally use as an intermediate between a coarse stone and the soft Arkansas. (I sharpen full flat bevel every time). For carving gouges, however, I always start with the Washita and continue with soft and black Arkansas.

The coarse oil stones we have today are mostly man made, and before their advent water stones were usually used for coarse work. There were a few stones that were marketed and used as all around stones, coarse enough to cut and fine enough to leave a decent edge. Examples would be Washita, Queer Creek (a very fine sandstone), fine India, and coticule.

[michael langman]

I really like the hard white stones Ken. They are good at keeping your tools sharp before they get too dull. I like them better then the fine India stone, but still use that on occasion.

[Steve Voigt]

The india stones Norton makes are much cheaper than trying to find a Washita. I have an 8x3 and I think it cost $20. Norton also has the “carborundum” line, but for what I do the India stones work really well.

Yep, India stones are a great bargain. My fine and medium stones are six years old. I flatten them regularly and they've lost a good deal of thickness, but I could probably use them for another four years, so…two bucks a year, amortized? Not bad.
While I'm on the subject, it always bugs me a little when I see people warning of the dangers of flattening oil stones. It's worth mentioning that there is a diversity of expert opinion on the subject: some people say they never flatten their stones, others do it every day. I'm in the middle; I flatten them about once a month, and I'm a pretty heavy user.
There are two reasons to flatten oil stones. One is to make them cut faster, and the other is to keep them flat. I think most users will get frustrated with oil stones if they never flatten them: the stones will cut too slowly, and as the stones develop hollows, it will become increasingly hard to maintain flat backs and remove the burrs produced by more aggressive stones.
It is true, as some here have said, that a freshly abraded stone will produce a (slightly) less keen edge. I frankly doubt most people would be able to tell the difference in actual use. But if it's an issue, there are multiple ways of dealing with it. You can spend a couple minutes flatting a plane iron's back, and the stone will quickly become less brash. You can use a strop with compound after the stone. Or you can use a fine diamond plate to grade the stone. My friend Darryl Gent matches diamond plates to stones--a coarse diamond plate to abrade coarse stones, and an extra fine diamond plate for finishing stones. I don't do that because I'm too cheap, but one of these days…

[bridger berdel]

If you abrade the translucent stone, it will cut faster, but lose its effectiveness as a polisher. There is no point in degrading an expensive stone. These are not water stones, where you want fresh grit. If you want a coarser stone than a translucent, try a soft Arkansas or a Washita stone. Or some kind of water stone.

Very hard fine stones are prone to glazing over, especially in my impatient hands. I have had this happen with translucent white, surgical black, spyderco UF and jaspers. When this happens they pretty much stop cutting. Using them to raise a slurry on a waterstone cleans out the surface without grading them coarser. I don't use the waterstones much because of the messiness factor, but when i do i'll break out some finishers to use with them.

[Charles Guest]

I'm dying to see the portfolio of anybody who can tell the difference, explain the difference, and exploit the difference (particularly the latter) between a translucent and a surgical black.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I bought a surgical black, but then I saw the specific gravity for all three on the Dan’s site is identical. I figure I fell for a marketing gimmick, but it is a nice stone, so I am not too upset.

There is a big difference between the black and the “hard.”