John I have never seen those sure -tite bolts. Good to know. My philosophy is if you make it strong enough to withstand a bull elephant, it should survive teenage boys.Mike.
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John I have never seen those sure -tite bolts. Good to know. My philosophy is if you make it strong enough to withstand a bull elephant, it should survive teenage boys.Mike.
[OP]
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Based on your comment I still need to bolt the standalone newel post to the joist. The option described in my had drawings is a no no. Anyway looking at my situation and investigating a little more, I have few pictures to share. We have most likely a 2x8 and not a beam. Do I have other options: 1) May I have the newel post riding the 2x8 and bolt it through the post (twice) and the 2x8? 2) how do I beef up the 2x8? The 2x8 are actually 1939 2x8 and not as thin as the currently offered but still not a lot to attach. Here few additional pics. FYI, 3/4 hardwood floors will be put on top of this subfloor.
Contributor
It looks like you will be fine if you bolt the newel to that 2 x 8. But I suspect the centerline of your newel post will sit inboard of the 2 x 8. If so, you will have to pull up the flooring and screw a 2 x 8 , or 4 x 8, to it, between the joists on each side of where the newel goes.
John
[OP]
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Right, if I box the newel post it will be off center with the half post. I have a cabinet where the halp post would be. there is no flexibility there, I cannot move the location of the post because I have a knee wall cab. So I can either make the post "ride" the joist or ...here my final idea: what about having the newel post (both side) bolt on the side like a deck? It is a modern room, I do not mind some industrial look. I think it is called notched post. Would it work?
Last edited by laura vianello; 10-01-2018 at 10:16 AM. Reason: Adding a definition
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Laura, the railings along our loft were installed lapped over the edge because that was the most secure way to retrofit them and the overhang was just built into the design. Nothing wrong with it. As I noted previously, lag bolts were used and then the countersinks (originally cut with a forstner bit on a DP) were plugged.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
[OP]
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John, the 2x8 is too narrow to use a bolt from the bottom. I might have to bolt on the side of the newel post.
[OP]
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Jim, Thanks for your comment. Would you mind to share a picture? I am wondering if I have to cut the bottom of the post 45 degrees. I think that if I see an indoor application, I would feel better about the industrial look and my husband might like it too.TX
Moderator
Per your request...
IMG_2574.jpg IMG_2575.jpg
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
[OP]
Member
One thing that I did not mention is that I am planning cable railing so to have the post in metal does not scare me....would it be easier than having a wood post? In addition the half post will be attached to a wall. The total straight rail is 48" including the post. So really a tiny railing that creates such a hassle.
This is the only railing I've made, it's a cable style. Super stout. I used a huge angle iron (4" x 4" x .188" thk, if I remember correctly) at the base and tied into the joists from both top and side. The wall tie ins are 2x4's. I did not tie into the joists by putting a hole into the floor, but that would have made me feel more comfy. The vertical tie in really helped. I luckily didn't have a corner post to deal with.
Railings are worrisome and I don't think I'm in a hurry to install another one.
0209181930a.jpg
Contributor
Laura, as Jim showed there's nothing wrong with lapping the newel over the side and lag bolting it to the side of the joist. For DIY it may be the easiest approach to provide the needed strength. If your newel happens to end up near half way between the two adjacent joists that meet the rim joist you are lagging into you may find that the newel is not very rigid laterally. If so, tear up the subfloor and add some blocking between those adjacent joists and from that blocking back to the rim joist where your newel will land. Like this:
John
[OP]
Member
Absolutely love it!!!! I wish I could build the same. You have the same layout but "double". I need only one railing (left side) 48" long. You should write a white paper "how to". It is something I would love to have. I am thinking the same but with minimalist post (totally square no fuzz).
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I completely rebuilt a staircase earlier this year. The rise varied between 8 inches and 11 inches. Fortunately the run was about 13 inches - really wide treads made by gluing flooring to the treads (I am not making this up). So I had the space to get the rises down to a consistent 7 1/8 with about a 11 inch run. The national code requires that a 4 inch ball not be able to pass through the balusters. So 4 inch spacing is OK but not 4 inch spaces between balusters. I used iron balusters. If you like the look, they are not that bad on price and are fairly easy to work with. You can make them really easy by spending more for screw on bases instead of drilling holes but I went old school with 5/8 holes for the bottom and 1/2 inch holes in the handrail for the top. With your very limited run of handrail, it wouldn't cost much at all for iron - if you like the look. Holes are also easier to drill when the handrail is not at an angle. If you use a solid baluster instead of cable, the balusters will help to stiffen up the handrail. The cable, if tensioned, will put additional stress on the posts.
I agree 100% with John - it is clear that he had a lot more experience with this than I do. I will add that the traditional way to fasten the newel post at the bottom of a run of stairs, is to bolt it to the stair stringer and the first riser. It sits in front of the riser so it is fastened something like you illustrate. Mine is done this way with construction adhesive and screws - not lag bolts. I know lags would have been better but I had limited space where I could get the posts to align (the stairs are at an L shape so the bottom newel has to align with the newel on the landing which in my case had to align with a wall the other end of the handrail fastens to). It is nicely solid and does not move. The fasteners are from the inside. If you can use lags I would but big screws with at least an inch of penetration into framing will hold, especially with construction adhesive.
The other fastener I used is trim head screws. I used them to fasten the handrail to the posts and the wall. If you can use more traditional fasteners it's a good idea but several trim head screws will also hold a handrail and go in really easy (pre-drill). A color matched wax crayon will hide the head well (after the finish is applied). I used construction adhesive to put the treads down and only added a trim head screw or two if the tread needed it. Treads lock to the risers with a dado that was glued (a traditional approach). I researched the traditional way of doing everything but didn't totally follow it. It's my house and everything is solid so I am happy with it. If I was doing work for somebody else, I would probably just stay traditional with everything.
The staircase I tore out was functional but had nothing but nails holding things together. No screws, no glue. I don't know how old that staircase is but the house is 50 years old. I didn't know they made finish nails that big. But I take some comfort that my construction is better than what I took out and it survived quite a while.
[OP]
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John, I feel good about lapping. The question is how: how many bolts, where and how long? How much can I trim the post to make sure it stay safe and sound? How big/thick should the post be. (the half post cannot be more than 3" wide). As you can see from my picture I would have the stairs on the side of the lapping. It would probably be safer to have the lapping on the other side but I cannot because the half post will be off centered. The lapping will be against a 2x6 (it is a ceiling joist because it is an attic and the ceiling joist is the floor base of the attic). This 2x6 joist edge is sitting on another thick wood which I have no idea what it is...I am not a builder. So if I do the lapping, should I do the lapping for the half post too? I guess it would look weird to have it only on one side. While a 3" half post (against the wall can be safely centered to the joist, the big stand alone would need to have the joist in the middle to be centered with the other. Very hard to describe buy I think pictures might help. May be I am overthinking it. Thanks for helping
Contributor
Laura the newels need to be wider than 3"; I would not want anything less than 3-1/2" as a minimum. But you could easily use something wider than that if you use a lap joint. OK, you only have 3" for the half newell against the wall. No problem. Lets say you make the newell 4" square and the half newell 4" x 2". If you make the lapped portion 1-1/2 - 2" it will still fit on the wall without causing interference to that access door, or whatever it is,
The half newell would be screwed to the wall framing. There's no need to bolt/screw the lapped portion to the floor joist. The stand alone newell would be cut like so:
You will have to remove the flooring to do this, but it will be a lot stronger this way than with just a lap joint. You can make the needed cuts with a bandsaw or handsaw. Make it fit the exact width of the joist. If when you slid the newel in place it won't stand up plumb because the joist is cocked, then pare the joist and/or newel and glue in place shims as needed until it does. The short lap at the front puts the newel on the floor even with top of the stairs which looks better and improves safety. This arrangement also allows you to lag bolt the newel from the inside which both hides those bolt heads and makes the newel stronger to a lateral load towards the stairwell. While you have the subfloor off assess whether or not you need to add cripples and/or extra blocking to make sure the rim joist is strong enough for the task. Two 3/8" lag bolts with washers under the heads will do the job. If your newel is 4" I would use 3-1/2" lag bolts. Predrill the holes to avoid splitting. And use PL construction adhesive in the joint when you set the newel in place the last time.
John
If the task just seems too daunting I advise you to hire a pro. Balustrades are critical to safety and no place to take a chance.
Last edited by John TenEyck; 10-02-2018 at 12:05 PM.
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