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Thread: Calling all owners of Lie-Nielsen Scraping Planes; 212 112 85

  1. #61
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    So was this..
    IMAG0185.jpg
    A Stanley No. 70....can be pushed or pulled
    IMAG0186.jpg
    Been using it to remove beads of dried glue. As for that chisel...meh, found a better handle for it...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Pat, I searched out a few quotes as well

    "In the four videos I watched I actually did not see large fluffy shavings but minute ones and lots of dust and yet they were saying that when the scraper went dull you ended up with powder and little shavings ... In the end I felt so frustrated because again it was a crowded mass of miss-information that clouded the real truth. " Paul Sellers


    "The cutting edge of a scraper is a fine hook" ... Garret Hack



    Regards from Cape Town

    Derek

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Pat, I searched out a few quotes as well

    "In the four videos I watched I actually did not see large fluffy shavings but minute ones and lots of dust and yet they were saying that when the scraper went dull you ended up with powder and little shavings ... In the end I felt so frustrated because again it was a crowded mass of miss-information that clouded the real truth. " Paul Sellers


    "The cutting edge of a scraper is a fine hook" ... Garret Hack



    Regards from Cape Town

    Derek
    "In the end I felt so frustrated because again it was a crowded mass of miss-information that clouded the real truth."
    Amen

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    That's actually a really good example of using a card scraper for finish work, which is something I've already referenced multiple times in this thread. Planes and cabinet scrapers aren't as good for that, because you can't instantaneously vary the angle and camber as Brian describes, and because there isn't as much feedback (note that Brian referenced "feeling" for angles etc a couple times in that video. You can't do that with a plane).

    Brian was unquestionably using a hooked scraper there. I say that for three reasons:

    1. There was a burnisher laying conspicuously on the bench, right next to his workpiece.
    2. While thin, the shavings were continuous in a way that doesn't happen with an unhooked scraper.
    3. You can't get a mirror finish like that from an unhooked scraper except maybe on the very hardest exotics.
    4. He referenced finding the critical angle at which the hook engages the wood (though he didn't word it quite like that). Unhooked scrapers don't have that sort of response to the wood.

    This video doesn't contradict anything anybody has said in this thread. It just shows a different use for a different type of hooked scraper, so if anything it reinforces the arguments the rest of us are making.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    That's actually a really good example of using a card scraper for finish work, which is something I've already referenced multiple times in this thread. Planes and cabinet scrapers aren't as good for that, because you can't instantaneously vary the angle and camber as Brian describes, and because there isn't as much feedback (note that Brian referenced "feeling" for angles etc a couple times in that video. You can't do that with a plane).

    Brian was unquestionably using a hooked scraper there. I say that for three reasons:

    1. There was a burnisher laying conspicuously on the bench, right next to his workpiece.
    2. While thin, the shavings were continuous in a way that doesn't happen with an unhooked scraper.
    3. You can't get a mirror finish like that from an unhooked scraper except maybe on the very hardest exotics.
    4. He referenced finding the critical angle at which the hook engages the wood (though he didn't word it quite like that). Unhooked scrapers don't have that sort of response to the wood.

    This video doesn't contradict anything anybody has said in this thread. It just shows a different use for a different type of hooked scraper, so if anything it reinforces the arguments the rest of us are making.
    The point of the video was purely to provide demonstration that for finish work the scraper produces more dust than shavings. That's exactly what he demonstrates. He notes 'gouging' created by his rougher, deeper cutting use of the same tool. It might be that LN intends their scraping planes to be used for final finish, not taking shavings.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Pat, I searched out a few quotes as well
    The video Pat cited is actually really good IMO. The shavings are "fluffy enough", and there are several aspects (spelled out in another post) that demonstrate that he's making good use of a hooked scraper.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    The point of the video was purely to provide demonstration that for finish work the scraper produces more dust than shavings. That's exactly what he demonstrates. He notes 'gouging' created by his rougher, deeper cutting use of the same tool. It might be that LN intends their scraping planes to be used for final finish, not taking shavings.
    Except that that's not what he demonstrates. He's creating curls for the most part, not dust. An unhooked scraper can't do what he's demonstrating in that video, so even if that's what LN "intends" with their advice it isn't what they achieve.

    Also he's demonstrating use of a card. Many of the techniques he describes simply aren't feasible with a plane like the 212. L-N's advice is inappropriate for the tool they are selling.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-07-2018 at 1:41 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    I do have the plane, and I do have the thick iron, but I never use it. Takes too long to prepare and too long to maintain. Having said that, I rarely use the 212, except when working unruly small areas that require that kind of control.
    Enquiring minds still want to know how you got that iron-bodied 212 :-)

  9. #69
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    Seems to be a lot of hair-splitting going on here....oh well...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Seems to be a lot of hair-splitting going on here....oh well...
    You're basically right, but at the same time it's critical to the OP's problem (212 creating dust, not shavings). While "hooked or not" seems like a small difference, the difference between ~50 degree cutting angle and ~100 degree cutting angle is *huge*.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Greg Jones View Post
    The statement loses context without the accompanying pictures, as LV is making a side-by-side comparison with what I would assume is the Stanley 112.
    Replying late: Pete's point is that adding a #80-style camber screw to a #112-style scraping plane is an obvious combination of existing features. That's why I cited the KSR-v-Teleflex case in response (a well-known patent case in which the Supreme Court established that such obvious combinations aren't patentable inventions).

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    I may experiment with a hook, but I expect that it would require more frequent burnishing and resetting than I sharpen presently- the setting of the iron is the fiddly part.
    I don't think that's necessarily correct. The hooked edge is more acute and therefore more susceptible to some types of wear, but it's also work-hardened and therefore has better wear resistance. I'd call it a wash based on my own experience (I make rare use of unhooked scrapers in very difficult circumstances where I actually *want* a 90+ degree cutting angle).
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-07-2018 at 3:06 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    The video Pat cited is actually really good IMO. The shavings are "fluffy enough", and there are several aspects (spelled out in another post) that demonstrate that he's making good use of a hooked scraper.
    No Patrick ... or perhaps we are focussed on two separate issues (I agree that it was a good video). In the picture to which Pat referred (which constituted mostly dust and just a few shavings), Pat commented, "Thanks Stewie, that's what I was attempting to describe. More like dust than shavings because very little material being removed". My earlier comment was that scraping is about cutting and creating shavings, not creating dust. The video that was linked to shows Brian Boggs making shavings. Lots of shavings. Any dust is incidental, not deliberate. Boggs commented when the shavings have become finer and finer - "that almost dust and little bit of shavings". He is describing the scraper burnishing at a late stage. This was the last stage of the process he was going through. It is right at the end. It does not represent the process of scraping, per se. To say that dust and scraping are synonymous is misleading.

    Regards from Cape Town

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 01-07-2018 at 3:44 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    No Patrick ... or perhaps we are focussed on two separate issues (I agree that it was a good video). In the picture to which Pat referred (which constituted mostly dust and just a few shavings), Pat commented, "Thanks Stewie, that's what I was attempting to describe. More like dust than shavings because very little material being removed". My earlier comment was that scraping is about cutting and creating shavings, not creating dust. The video that was linked to shows Brian Boggs making shavings. Lots of shavings. Any dust is incidental, not deliberate. Boggs commented when the shavings have become finer and finer - "that almost dust and little bit of shavings". He is describing the scraper burnishing at a late stage. This was the last stage of the process he was going through. It is right at the end. It does not represent the process of scraping, per se. To say that dust and scraping are synonymous is misleading.

    Regards from Cape Town

    Derek
    Yes, we agree. My point was that the video he linked completely demolished his own argument, so I was arguing not to throw the baby (the Boggs video) out with the bathwater. That's all.

  15. #75
    Hello all, thanks for such a lot of responses! It has all been really interesting information and very helpful for me to know.

    One quite important question I have is; when it comes to re-sharpening the blade, what does one do with the slight remainder of the burr left on the blade? Bear in mind I am using 1,000 and then 8,000 waterstones. Do I just leave it there and re-hone on the stones? Or try to get rid of the remainder of the burr, with the stones or burnisher, before re-sharpening again?

    To the person who asked; yes, I do have great successes with standard card scrapers. I sharpen them in the way Brian Boggs shows in his great video on that subject. I use card scrapers alot and love the finish they leave. I find I get around 3-4 times to re-roll the burr with my burnisher, before the quality starts diminishing, so I go back to the file, then stone...

    Theo

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