One more about the Veritas VMII chisels

[Patrick Chase]

Why being so humble, Derek?

It's more a statement of fact in this instance. Warren is streets ahead of just about everybody, even if he doesn't always express his knowledge in the most "affirming" manner.

[Stewie Simpson]

The following is a set of circa 1960s Marples Boxwood Firmer Chisels that I use regular in my workshop. Would I trade these in to purchase a set of Veritas PMV-11 Chisels. Not a chance. Their beautifully designed, they hold and retain an excellent edge, and can be re-sharpened with my choice of oil or water stones.

[Simon MacGowen]

It's more a statement of fact in this instance. Warren is streets ahead of just about everybody, even if he doesn't always express his knowledge in the most "affirming" manner.

You know that for a fact?

Quick, please tell us more whatever you know about the advanced chisel technique!

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

The following is a set of circa 1960s Marples Boxwood Firmer Chisels that I use regular in my workshop. Would I trade these in to purchase a set of Veritas PMV-11 Chisels. Not a chance. Their beautifully designed, they hold and retain an excellent edge, and can be re-sharpened with my choice of oil or water stones.

NEITHER WOULD I.

And that's a fact.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

You know that for a fact?

Quick, please tell us more whatever you know about the advanced chisel technique!

Simon

Simon,

Warren has something like 40 years of daily handtool use at a high level.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Brian. I am working on twin through tenons now after breaking the tip off of my chisel on one of the first 8 stop mortises I worked on first. I am using my old (and familiar) registered firmer type chisel to chop these while I put a few minutes at a time on the broken-tip repair. That one is nearly completed with re establishing the 20 deg edge and should be ready for the 35 deg micro bevel soon. Need to correct some out-of-square face grinding across the top edge of the 20 deg bevel face and polish it up some. I did try some of your double run chopping before debris removal, but figured out that I had let my "bite size" increase when moving ahead for the next chop and probably took too big a bite when I broke the tip off. I pay better attention now and am seeing a familiar pattern of the debris being pushed away from the flat side of the chisel by the bevel. A perpendicular chisel (rather than a perpendicular tip) is working better in this hard pecan.

Thats good to hear! My technique works best for me because I use Japanese mortise chisels which really shouldn’t be levered, so I just chop up the waste.

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon,

Warren has something like 40 years of daily handtool use at a high level.

Please don't misconstrue my intention. I am seriously interested in any dvanced chiselling techniques that would add to the existing body of knowledge and practice.

Many skilled chisel users including David Charlesworth, Jeff Miller, Paul Sellers and Ian Kirby have contributed in this area in the form of articles and/or videos (before them, Hayward and Kingshott). We should welcome any instructional contributions from Warren if he has the time. I never stop learning.

Simon

[Jeff Ranck]

I can only speak for my own experience and the things I've done which have noticeably improved my work over the years since I began making furniture.

I provided mine above. The more often you utilize the bevel, the easier you are on the tool. Look at videos of sashimono-shi who have been working with handtools for their entire careers. They're very careful in how they chop, but very effective. I can't recall ever seeing them chop straight down, they always use the bevel to chop.

I chopped 40 half-blind dovetails last Thursday and needed to touch up my chisel with a fine stone once.

So I got lost somewhere along the way. What do you mean when you say using the bevel to chop? Placing the bevel edge (rather than the flat back) along the baseline (or whatever line you are using) and then chopping down so that the chisel is forced out and away?

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes, that's accurate. However, like I said I don't often use this for the baseline, only for exceptional circumstances.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

That sounds a bit awkward.

My last foray into half blind dovetails had me using a forestner bit to remove the initial waste. It did speed things up, but a mistake can be nasty. DAMHINT!

jtk

My process is as follows:

1. Mark it (well duh)
2. Make an initial cut with the saw
3. Use that Ron Bontz half blind tool to "finish the cut" on the sides to the base line all the way back.
4. Use a regular chisel to deepen the mark at the lower base line (so not into the end grain).
5. use the mortise chisel to chop down into the end grain. Because I deepened the mark first, the wood brakes. I initially take a very thin cut. I can really use any chisel for the first cut.
6. Sometimes I repeat step 4 at this point.
7. Use the mortise chisel in the end grain again, working my way back towards the line, but I do not hit the line. This is very fast, and because of the mortise chisel geometry, it is very fast and quickly removes material.
8. I then finish it off with regular chisels cleaning up the sides and bottom. This includes the final pairing to the back line pushing down into the end grain.

[Pat Barry]

Yes, that's accurate. However, like I said I don't often use this for the baseline, only for exceptional circumstances.

Do you tip the handle of the chisel back to match the bevel angle? Then you are striking the handle with your mallet at ~30 degree angle to the work. I don't see why this would be beneficial. It actually seems counterintuitive to me. My past use of 'riding the bevel' is for situations such as lateral chopping at the bottom corners of a mortise where the bevel can slide along the bottom. Can't do that any other way.

[ken hatch]

The following is a set of circa 1960s Marples Boxwood Firmer Chisels that I use regular in my workshop. Would I trade these in to purchase a set of Veritas PMV-11 Chisels. Not a chance. Their beautifully designed, they hold and retain an excellent edge, and can be re-sharpened with my choice of oil or water stones.

!+, my only difference is most of mine have a flat neck (pre 1930's or so). It's hard to improve on perfection. Of course as with all things wood YMMV.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Do you tip the handle of the chisel back to match the bevel angle? Then you are striking the handle with your mallet at ~30 degree angle to the work. I don't see why this would be beneficial. It actually seems counterintuitive to me. My past use of 'riding the bevel' is for situations such as lateral chopping at the bottom corners of a mortise where the bevel can slide along the bottom. Can't do that any other way.

No, not usually. I'd like not to fixate on the baseline as I mentioned I don't often use this for baselines, except in rare circumstance. I use it to chop the waste. Basically I hold the chisel as I normally would and the chisel functions to push the waste out of the joint. If you always chop down with the back toward the baseline then the chisel is being driven into the wood and supported by the short grain. If you face the bevel toward the baseline then the chisel is driving through the short grain and it's being supported by the end grain.

[Pat Barry]

No, not usually. I'd like not to fixate on the baseline as I mentioned I don't often use this for baselines, except in rare circumstance. I use it to chop the waste. Basically I hold the chisel as I normally would and the chisel functions to push the waste out of the joint. If you always chop down with the back toward the baseline then the chisel is being driven into the wood and supported by the short grain. If you face the bevel toward the baseline then the chisel is driving through the short grain and it's being supported by the end grain.

Thanks for clarifying because that was lost on me while I was imagining what you meant about riding the bevel differently. I was trying to remember you doing strange things on your videos and didn't see such nonsense. Now it makes sense that you are just facing the bevel toward the baseline or away from it and using the resulting leverage to your advantage. I do that all the time in an effort to reduce the work required by my non-expert technique.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

sometimes I am slow.... well often I am slow, so I am going to repeat what I think I just read....

(Q) For this discussion, does it matter if I am trying to (1) push into end grain (like when I am clearing my half blind dovetails) or (2) cut through long grain fibers. I assume the later (2) cutting long grain.

(Q) for this discussion, we are always cutting near an edge, so when I bang that chisel into the wood, something will be pushed or leveraged out. In other words, it is irrelevant if I am establishing a base line and and am creating an initial mark or deepening an existing mark that does not cause wood to be pushed out.