One more about the Veritas VMII chisels

[Brian Holcombe]

If indeed Derek was referring to technique in use, I, for one, would like to know and am eager to learn what super-secret chisel technique that someone is using and that Derek is not aware of. Or, what chisel technique that Derek thinks he is streets behind.

Simon

I can only speak for my own experience and the things I've done which have noticeably improved my work over the years since I began making furniture.

I provided mine above. The more often you utilize the bevel, the easier you are on the tool. Look at videos of sashimono-shi who have been working with handtools for their entire careers. They're very careful in how they chop, but very effective. I can't recall ever seeing them chop straight down, they always use the bevel to chop.

I chopped 40 half-blind dovetails last Thursday and needed to touch up my chisel with a fine stone once.

[Jim Koepke]

That's one approach or technique, a slow one.

My recollection is Derek saws the waste before the final chopping of the waste. My recollector could be on the blink.

My favorite chisels for paring away the waste of dovetail and other joinery are my thin blade Buck Brothers chisels. With an approximately 15 - 20º bevel the edge is prone to quickly fading or micro chipping. They can be quickly touched up on oilstones and be back to work in no time.

For mallet work there are plenty of other chisels available.

Different folks have different motivations. Some want a minimalist accumulation around their shop. The more stuff there is the more storage space it will take. One can only envy how much easier it is to grab a chisel for paring which is the same chisel used for every other chisel task. Try to imagine the situation in my shop when a decision has to be made about which 1/4" chisel to dig up to be used for a specific task. Then imagine the extra work of keeping them all sharp at their different bevel angles.

If there is one set of chisels that can "do it all," then that is the super-secret chisel technique.

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

One can only envy how much easier it is to grab a chisel for paring which is the same chisel used for every other chisel task.

If there is one set of chisels that can "do it all," then that is the super-secret chisel technique.

jtk

And then there is the situation where someone has one set of chisels and is damn glad for that. Making do is not a sin.

[Simon MacGowen]

I chopped 40 half-blind dovetails last Thursday and needed to touch up my chisel with a fine stone once.

That sure is one way to do it. If I were to chop 40 tails (half-blind or full), I would sure hone my edge many more than once assuming I was using the blunt chops. But since I removed more materials each chop, I would end up finishing them just in the amount of time, if not a little faster, if I used the "1mm or less" chops.

That at least has been my dovetail experience all these years, as I still use both approaches.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

And then there is the situation where someone has one set of chisels and is damn glad for that. Making do is not a sin.

Yes, my days of only having one or two planes and not many more chisels isn't that far behind me.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

That sure is one way to do it. If I were to chop 40 tails (half-blind or full), I would sure hone my edge many more than once assuming I was using the blunt chops. But since I removed more materials each chop, I would end up finishing them just in the amount of time, if not a little faster, if I used the "1mm or less" chops.

That at least has been my dovetail experience all these years, as I still use both approaches.

Simon

Have you tried chopping straight in and compared to chopping with the use of the bevel? I adjust the amount of thickness I chop to the material and of course take fine cuts at the baseline. Not sure I’ve really measured the thickness of material at each chop, it always depends.

[Simon MacGowen]

Have you tried chopping straight in and compared to chopping with the use of the bevel? I adjust the amount of thickness I chop to the material and of course take fine cuts at the baseline. Not sure I’ve really measured the thickness of material at each chop, it always depends.

Are you referring to what I call a bevel-down cut (pare or chop)?

I have used chisels with their bevels up and/or down, which comes natural to me, depending on the grain directions or what the cut is for (e.g. accessing the deep, inside corners) or the work relative to my standing or sitting position. As I said, regardless of the type of chop I use, I only need to monitor one thing as I go: the edge. I rely on the feedback in the form of sound or amount of force I use or feel (on the back of the chisel) to tell me if it is time to stop and hone. Better hone before the edge is too dull; rehoning a less keen (as opposed to a dull) edge takes seconds, in 90% of the time or more, well under a minute (no jigs used of course). This is where experience counts. And I don't care about the steel, angle, sharpening media...all work, just with some difference.

The most important thing is the end result. To get the desired result, the last chisel cut(s) on the scribed line must be deadly precise and clean, and that is when I care. The materials removed before that are immaterial to me, much in the same way that I don't care about the shavings, only the surface left behind after a keen edge kisses it matters to me.

Simon

[James Pallas]

Have you tried chopping straight in and compared to chopping with the use of the bevel? I adjust the amount of thickness I chop to the material and of course take fine cuts at the baseline. Not sure I’ve really measured the thickness of material at each chop, it always depends.

I'm not sure I understand using the bevel to chop and in what circumstances you would do it. I don't consider myself any kind of expert on sharpening. I get edges sharp enough for my use. I don't think I spend much time on it. I don't even think about it much. When I think the tool needs the edge cleaned up I just do it without giving it much thought, just part of the regular routine of work. I think I tend to take thin bites just out of habit. When I chop mortises I go for bigger chips but not on anything else. Like I said I don't think about it, I just do it.
Jim

[David Eisenhauer]

Brian - Are you talking about whether or not to lean the chisel over so that the bevel edge is perpendicular to the material rather than the body of the chisel being perpendicular?

[Brian Holcombe]

David, I start with the chisel upright and lean it further and further over as I near the baseline. Sometimes I chop the baseline with the chisel upright and the bevel away from the baseline but sometimes I use the bevel to chop the baseline. It’s difficult to do but it results in a cleaner landing. Chopping straight up and down will usually pull material out of the center of the shoulder. Chopping with the bevel will not do so.

[Simon MacGowen]

David, I start with the chisel upright and lean it further and further over as I near the baseline. Sometimes I chop the baseline with the chisel upright and the bevel away from the baseline but sometimes I use the bevel to chop the baseline. It’s difficult to do but it results in a cleaner landing. Chopping straight up and down will usually pull material out of the center of the shoulder. Chopping with the bevel will not do so.

Now I get it. You are talking about avoiding the waste collapsing under the scribed line when the final chops are made. I seldom worry about that, but when I do (for instance, when the cuts are exposed), I use a technique that I saw Ian Kirby use (a long time ago when he still did demos!): He creates what he calls a center mound with angled cuts, avoiding undercutting the shoulder on the opposite side. Then he pares to remove the mould.

Is his the same as the Japanese approach (I am not a student of Japanese techniques, other than owning a couple of Japanese pull saws)?

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Brian - the bevel edge is perpendicular to the material rather than the body of the chisel being perpendicular?

Often used in that manner when mortising.

Simon

[David Eisenhauer]

Simon, yes, agreed. However, I have never used the bevel side against the end line as Brian says he does at times. Must try that tomorrow. I am in the midst of 16 through mortises in 2-1/2" thick (and hard) material.

[Brian Holcombe]

I actually do it because riding the bevel drives the waste out more effectively. I don’t always use it at the baseline, generally I do so between twin tenons. For dovetails I waste them out riding the bevel, then turn the blade and chop down straight.

[David Eisenhauer]

Thanks Brian. I am working on twin through tenons now after breaking the tip off of my chisel on one of the first 8 stop mortises I worked on first. I am using my old (and familiar) registered firmer type chisel to chop these while I put a few minutes at a time on the broken-tip repair. That one is nearly completed with re establishing the 20 deg edge and should be ready for the 35 deg micro bevel soon. Need to correct some out-of-square face grinding across the top edge of the 20 deg bevel face and polish it up some. I did try some of your double run chopping before debris removal, but figured out that I had let my "bite size" increase when moving ahead for the next chop and probably took too big a bite when I broke the tip off. I pay better attention now and am seeing a familiar pattern of the debris being pushed away from the flat side of the chisel by the bevel. A perpendicular chisel (rather than a perpendicular tip) is working better in this hard pecan.