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Thread: Are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning?

  1. #16
    Mikey, I don't think they are, most people use both types of tools. Sure carbides are not the end all of tools, but they do have a place in turning. And Kyle Iwamoto, you can make or cut a very sharp vee with carbide tools, a sharper and deeper vee then you can with a conventional tool. To do it, you just have to purchase the proper carbide insert. There's new inserts that you can buy, that come to a very sharp vee at the tip. I can't recall who is selling them, or where to buy them fight off hand, bur I'm sure they could be found with a search. I checked them out when I was on the computer last night, I hope I can find them again as I want to buy a few. I find that most newbies start out with carbide tools, they like them better then the conventional tools. The reason they like them better, is that they can accomplish turning a dish a pen or some other item. But once they get deeper into turning, they all want to learn to use the conventional ones. Tim Yoder, Brendon Stemp, Carl Jacobson, and many more reputable turners have carbide tools in amongst their conventional ones. So, my opinion is that, no, I don't think they are interfering with people using conventional.
    Len

  2. #17
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    +1 to you Richard I do exactly the same it is using the technology of today. I do use a standard gouge to do a lot of rough spindle turning and some finishing. I figure whatever it takes to get the job done.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Mullin View Post
    ...And Kyle Iwamoto, you can make or cut a very sharp vee with carbide tools, a sharper and deeper vee then you can with a conventional tool. To do it, you just have to purchase the proper carbide insert. There's new inserts that you can buy, that come to a very sharp vee at the tip. ...
    If you can find it I'd like to see a picture. It's hard to imagine a v-groove with a perfect point at the bottom narrower (sharper) than can be made with a small angle skew chisel. The skew also leaves a clean glass-like surface all the way to the bottom of the groove. I do have a one fairly sharp prototype diamond insert made for cutting a v but the angle is far less acute than what the skew can easily do and doesn't leave as clean a surface. It also has a slightly rounded tip - do the new inserts you mention come to a "perfect" point without sacrificing strength/toughness?

  4. #19
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    1. Do you use carbide cutting tools (with replaceable cutters), spindle and bowl gouges?

    The only carbide tool I’ve got is a Hunter cutter for my hollowing rig.

    2. Do you turn exclusively with roughing, spindle and bowl gouges?

    Yes - rarely use a spindle roughing gouge though.

    3. Do you think the use of carbide cutting tools is causing us to lose some of our "craftsmanship" in creating our turnings?

    I think it just sells a lot more sandpaper for the most part. If the surfaces and detail you get from the tools you use is acceptable to you, go for it. I tend to want to grow personally through my turning both in the forms that I produce and in the level of craftsmanship I bring to the piece. I’m not a production turner, there is little impetus for speed.

    4. Is it your desire (in turning) to create a pretty piece, or to increase your turning skills? These aren't always mutually exclusive, I know, but just curious to get the forums' turners to give some thoughts on the subject.

    I enjoy the process - from the initial design or concept of what I can make with a chunk of tree, through sawing the blank and roughing to see what’s there. Then finishing the piece. Its the act of making that appeals to me. The concept often evolves during the journey, and sometimes the outcome is just a pile of shavings, but in the process I hope to have learned a new skill or gained the knowledge to avoid at least some of the missteps next time around.

    The process often plays out over months or years for a given blank. For me, there’s a component of honoring the materials we use. While its true that our basic material does grow on trees, now that I live basically in a forest, I’ve come to appreciate the life that surrounds me every day and the peace and serenity the sense of community thats shared within a healthy living forest. I want to honor that by bringing enough skill to the process to avoid creating little more than a pile of shavings; to cleanly and purposefully cut the fibers and bring something new to life. It can take several decades to produce that quilted maple or madrona burl, it seems important to take a little time and bring the best skills and the most appropriate tools I can muster to bear on making it into something new and, with luck, at least as beautiful as it started out.

  5. #20
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    Just checked back in to see if there were any responses. Thanks to all for your input!!

    First off, my fault for not clarifying the difference between the two words, "craftsmanship" and "artistry"" (or "art"). Those words are probably interpreted differently by each of us. I'm not saying I'm right with my definitions-I may be completely off base, but when I think of "craftsmanship", I think of the process itself, and what skills are required to produce a piece. . When I think of "art"/"artistry", I think more of the design and finished product. A factory-produced bowl may have a perfect shape, but being completely manufactured by machines turned on by a man who just hits buttons, I don't personally feel the button-pusher is showing craftsmanship. A hand-made bowl that includes a beautiful design executed well displays artistry in the design and finished product, and also shows the craftsmanship of the turner in that it's made from a piece of raw wood manipulated by hand, even though some machinery is utilized in the process. There's no firm line as to when a bowl changes from being hand-made to factory produced that I can tell, but this is determined on an individual basis.

    There's a show on PBS called "A Craftsman's Legacy", hosted by a guy named Eric Gorges. In the show, Eric travels around to visit men and women who engage in an unusual trade requiring manual skills (including an episode where he turned a small bowl). He always asks his guests if they consider themselves a craftsman or an artist. It's interesting to hear the different responses from each guest on that question.

    On the outside chance someone may think it's not fair for me to have asked these questions without giving my own opinions, I'll go ahead and give my thoughts now:

    1. I do use both carbide tools and gouges. John Sanford, I appreciate and understand your comment with regard to skew chisels! I'll occasionally use/try them in the beginning stages of a turning, with plenty of stock to correct my mistakes. The skew is by far the hardest tool I've tried to conquer!

    2. No. As stated, I do occasionally use carbide cutters, but try to use the traditional gouges as much as possible.

    3. I personally think it's more so that carbide cutters "can" cause us to not develop skills if we're a beginning cutter. I know that, for me, using a carbide tool is easier than using any gouge, as a rule. However, that does bring newcomers into our hobby easier than getting frustrated trying to remember when to turn a "traditional" tool so the bevel makes contact, raising or lowering the handle as you turn, etc. In other words, for me, more skill is required to use roughing, spindle and bowl gouges. As for the skew, you just have to have the patience of Job and a few years (or decades) of practice.

    4. My end goal is to produce a pretty piece, BUT, the idea is to produce a hand-made object, whether it's a pen, spindle, candlestick, top, lamp, bowl, box, etc. People don't pay a premium for a manufactured bowl as often as they do for a bowl turned by hand from some individual. The reason the premium price is paid for hand-made items is at least in part because they're hand-made!

    A few minutes after I'd hit the "send" button on my initial posting, I thought someone was going to call me out for singling out the carbide cutters, when in fact, most of us use lathes that are powered, rather than a lathe turned by foot power or the original lathes that required two people for use. In fact, at some point in history, I'm guessing the roughing, spindle and bowl gouges were new to people as well. I haven't researched this so I may be wrong, but I'd guess the skew is probably closest to the "original" of all currently used tools (might also be a scraper of some type-like I said, I haven't checked into that at all).

    In summary, anything that encourages newcomers to turn and lessens the likelihood of frustration is a good thing. If it allows those who've been at this for a few years to be able to do something better, something we couldn't previously do, or if it enhances the finished product, I think that's a good thing too, as long as we don't get to that line where the product goes from being hand-made to something like a factory-produced piece.

  6. #21
    I can't speak for the use of Carbide tools. I regularly turned back in the late 1960's and then was away for 45 years. So much has changed. The use of chucks, bowl savers, fancy hollowing rigs, carbide tools, fingernail grinds, sharpening jigs, variable speed lathes existed but were not commonplace in home workshops. Add to that, new finishes, AC glue and other modern chemicals. For me it is as if wood turning went from the industrial age, to the digital age in a blink. I look at the things turned out compared to decades ago and I am definitely in awe of the skill of so many. The one thing that seems to have changed a lot is sharpening. New exotic grinds demand mechanical help to accomplish them. Carbide tools skip the skill of sharpening altogether. Like a cartridge head razor, just pitch the end and replace it with a new one.

    I don't know that the end product suffers. It may be more akin to modern folks when the power goes out. They panic, can't heat their house, or prep food. Yet my Amish neighbor's do just fine and don't have electric to even lose it. In a way, folks could lose sight of the foundation of turning. Whether it affects the things turned, remains to be seen. After all these years, I still have not tried to go back to bowl turning. There is something about spindle turning and using a skew to create shapes that intrigues me. I have been practicing by turning out little snow men figures to be donated to charity. Simply round the stock, roll two or three beads and peel cut a top hat, and part it off. For a small tree, I practice making a series cuts from one side instead of a vee cut. I am trying to finesse the cuts to the point that no sanding is required. I am certainly not there yet, but I can see so much improvement over what I was turning just months ago.

    I have been told that even at their sharpest, carbide cutters are not as clean cutting as some of the older carbon steel tools. The difference comes from knowledge of how to sharpen and use the "non-carbide" tools.

  7. #22
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    I have two carbide tools I use. One is the EW detail and I use the Hunter carbide for scraping. I've tried the flat carbide and don't like using them. However it really doesn't make any difference how you remove the wood. Maybe you can tell if someone used traditional tools or carbide, but I can't. Also I cannot tell what lathe was used to make a piece. It doesn't matter. I buy the best tools and lathes I can afford, but it doesn't mean I can make a better turning then someone that doesn't have as costly tools as I have. So to me it is the turner that his preference to use what he has to make his turnings.
    When working I had more money than time. In retirement I have more time than money. Love the time, miss the money.

  8. #23
    The only thing I don't like about the carbide tools is that the cutters are designed to be used till dull, then you throw them away. My Grandma, who lived through the Depression would come back and haunt me. Most of them are scrapers, and I use scrapers more than most people. A lot more. The popularity of them, is at least in part due to the fact that they are small scrapers and easier to handle than the big heavy scrapers, which all too often, in unskilled hands, end up taking too big of a bite and results in catches. They are nice for end grain work, but I do prefer more conventional/traditional tools which are easy to sharpen and use again and again and again....

    robo hippy

  9. #24
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    Carbide cutters can be sharpened with a diamond hone. I keep mine sharp, just like I keep gouges and scrapers. Check out the several videos on Youtube.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey Green View Post
    ..... Are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning?
    No, but it might prevent someone from gaining skills in the first place.
    Bill

  11. #26
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    Late to the party...but honestly, my feeling is that it's the art that counts, not what tool you used to create it. Tools and techniques are secondary because what's important is the end result. Tools don't make up for one's eye, sense of proportion or anything else. "Carbide" tools might even help with the art because the edge stays keen and that means less disruption of focus to sharpen, etc. The tools I use are the ones I enjoy using. And addressing a point that someone else brought up...no, I try NOT to use a skew. Ever. LOL
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #27
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    Jan 2014
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    I use and have both mutiple carbide tools for turning and especially for deep hollowing. I have a bunch of old and new gouges,scrapers,skews and others that I use as well. I think it just depends on the wood and the project. I have 3 cheaper Harrison Tools that are carbide I have had for some time now. And a couple of Trent Bosch`s carbide tools for hollowing. But most of the time i use my old gouges and skews etc.
    I may not have it all together, but together we have it all.

  13. #28
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    I was originally a professional photographer and I always said that digital photography made the public better photographers but professionals worse.

    I think carbide is similar. The learning curve is easier, so more people can enter the field, but it can only take you so far. Most carbide tools are scrapers and you can not get as good a finish with a carbide scraper as you can a gouge. Also, with no bevel to control the gouge, it is more difficult to fair a nice curve. If they work for you and make your life easier - go for it. But I doubt you will see very many professional turners relying on carbide.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Please see personal profile for website info.

  14. #29
    Because of the nature of the junk trees (usually firewood) I turn, I use carbide when I don't know what's hiding in there... if I snag a nail, or a bullet, or barbed wire or other crap, I don't worry about it. I also regularly use an angle grinder and untold numbers of other home made tools that most people wouldn't do on a lathe.

    that said, the only way I finish shape and/or finish cut anything is with traditional steel gouges.

    Carbide might get you in the theater, but traditional tools are the all access back stage pass....

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by John Beaver View Post
    I was originally a professional photographer and I always said that digital photography made the public better photographers but professionals worse.

    I think carbide is similar. The learning curve is easier, so more people can enter the field, but it can only take you so far. Most carbide tools are scrapers and you can not get as good a finish with a carbide scraper as you can a gouge. Also, with no bevel to control the gouge, it is more difficult to fair a nice curve. If they work for you and make your life easier - go for it. But I doubt you will see very many professional turners relying on carbide.
    I would like to add another thought to what John said. There are raised lip carbide cutters that, in addition to being used as scrapers, can also be used as bevel rubbing cutting tools. However, in order to use the carbide cutters in that manner, you would need to have the requisite skills to make bevel rubbing cuts.
    Bill

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