Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 29 of 29

Thread: Air filtration for new shop

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Southwestern CT
    Posts
    1,392
    I have an ambient air filter I run pretty much continuously during work, and then with the timer at end of day to clear the air. It's the unit described by Bill Pentz on his web-site. I don't have any meters that indicate metrics on how well it performs, but I can see and feel a difference. The cost is essentially the cost of the filter plus the cost of the in-line fan.

    This is in addition to the centralized dust collection system.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bill Adamsen; 11-15-2017 at 11:08 AM.
    "the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools.” Confucius

  2. #17
    I'd skip the ambient air filter and focus my funds into a good 2 stage collector with a sub-micron rated and certified filter. ie. HEPA or Nano.

    You can continue to run your DC after the tools stop spinning and open some gates to continue cycling and filtering the air in shop just as well as an ambient filter will.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh, Australia
    Posts
    2,700
    I used to recommend to customers who bought a CV Max from me that they always have an open gate above the work area that in effect scrubbed the air and grabbed a lot of the floating dust. The Max will support two open gates easily and if run at more than 60hz perhaps three gates, I run my CV1800 at 65 hz. Always vent to atmosphere if possible, it saves the expense of filters and the air flow is greater.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    924
    Good luck on your new venture. Exhausting conditioned air to the outside is a huge expense. Recirculating filtered air inside the shop poses some health risks. Additional filtration efficiency reduces those risks and wood species selection can reduce them further. It is all a trade off but should, IMHO, favor protecting your health.

    All the suggestions above are good. The 4-part system makes a lot of sense and they are ranked in the order of importance. I agree with using hand tools as much as possible. However, there is no tool in my shop that produces more airborne dust and floor debris than a handheld router. Router tables are easy to build though and my version of Norm's works quite well. Similar source controls are necessary for all powered machines. None of these will get it all, though.
    Rustic? Well, no. That was not my intention!

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Southwestern CT
    Posts
    1,392
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Kocher View Post
    I'd skip the ambient air filter and focus my funds into a good 2 stage collector with a sub-micron rated and certified filter. ie. HEPA or Nano.

    You can continue to run your DC after the tools stop spinning and open some gates to continue cycling and filtering the air in shop just as well as an ambient filter will.
    Sounds good in principle but in practice it turns out to be impractical. There are a number of reasons. Top of the list is noise. My cyclone is orders of magnitude louder than the ambient air filter. It basically requires hearing protection to operate at the speeds required to remove ambient air. Whereas the ambient filter works nicely in the background with little noise. Also, the centralized cyclone is not attached to any of the portable tools, and certainly not things like the block sanders. And even the tools to which the centralized system is attached have less than 100% effectiveness. Lastly, who has the presence of mind to dependably open the nearest gate to use the centralized system as an ambient filter. I tried the above approach ... even programming the VFD to run the centralized system at a speed that kept noise levels tolerable, and found it simply did not do the job.

    In my experience the ambient filter, as well as a two-stage and/or portable tool vacuum are all fundamental requirements of today's safe shop.
    "the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools.” Confucius

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh, Australia
    Posts
    2,700
    The only way the ambient air filter can be effective is there is loose floating dust in the air, sounds good to me.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Southwestern CT
    Posts
    1,392
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    The only way the ambient air filter can be effective is there is loose floating dust in the air
    There are loose floating particles (dust) everywhere. It is the amount and management that is in question.
    "the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools.” Confucius

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
    Posts
    12,298
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Adamsen View Post
    There are loose floating particles (dust) everywhere. It is the amount and management that is in question.
    That's why I think a laser particle counter (like the Dylos) is good to monitor what is actually in the air. I've seen mine report high numbers when I thought the air was fairly clean. Makes it easier to put up with wearing a respirator if I know what I would have been breathing otherwise.

  9. #24
    I appreciate what you are saying, and that it works for you.

    But, performance-wise, running you DC serves a similar function to an ambient filter and is as effective - it moves air in the shop through a filter. CFM through a filter, that is all it is...

    I disagree on "impractical" - I suppose it depends on the individual/shop/means.

    For me buying and running another tool is impractical.

    For me it's very practical to use the DC to cycle the air, the DC runs most of the time while I am working, I turn it on and leave it... after I'm making dust I leave it on...

    I see what you are saying about noise, but that is the only argument against and I have ear plugs in anyway.

    I have a drop/gate above my workbench that I connect to when I'm routing with the dovetail jig, or using a portable tool that can benefit from more than just the vacuum - I just open it to move the air in the room through the filter. It really doesn't take any "presence of mind".

    It grabs and moves air through the filter as well as whatever ambient system you have I am sure.

    The OP stated:"Unfortunately I am on a budget" and was looking to make sacrifices to accomodate something that will work as well as possible.

    I submit that given finite resources - an effective, high quality, 2 stage DC which will collect more dust at the source and serve to cycle the air in the room, is better than the combination of a less effective DC and ambient filter. An ambient filter is not a fundamental requirement when your DC can do the job, but you have to run it.

    I believe a quality HEPA vacuum is important too, but that is seperate of this comparison and you need it either way.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Highland MI
    Posts
    4,510
    Blog Entries
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    My advise is to buy a cyclone, Clearvue and Bill Pentz give actual numbers on its performance, others may but I have never seen them so I can't comment. Exhaust that cyclone to the atmosphere if possible avoiding filters and use what money you have left to equip the workshop adding more as you get more money.
    Sure glad Festool doesn't make a big cyclone, enough bragging on Clearviews as it is. Don't think the rest of us would be able to stand it! I don't subscribe to the gospel of Pentz, but his website does deserve perusing at least once. Just keep in mind he has underlying health issues that push his agenda.

    Seriously, dust collection shouldn't be an afterthought. If you plan on staying in WW, as most folks that find their way to the Creek are, dealing with dust should be early on your list of shop equipment. For most, a 2-3 hp cyclone would be a starting point. Forget baggers. You want something that can pull at least 800 cfm at your major tools. I have a 2 hp Oneida SDG that can pull 1000 cfm at my 6" gates with a 7" main run. Also a DustRight ambient cleaner (no longer available). Not as fastidious as some, but I do use a p95 mask when free sanding or blowing down my ship or cleaning filters.

    "I see what you are saying about noise, but that is the only argument against and I have ear plugs in anyway."

    Running a multi hp dust collector to clean your air is very inefficient when a 1/4 hp ambient filter will work as well, moving over 1000 cfm. Most of them, including mine, have a built in timer.
    Last edited by Ole Anderson; 11-16-2017 at 3:27 PM.
    NOW you tell me...

  11. #26
    Okay one more argument against... noise and electricity...

    But the cost of an ambient cleaner and filter pays for a lot of kw/h to run your bigger cyclone.

    I'm not arguing against a benefit of an air cleaner, but I'll say it again, the OP is talking about budget constraints in equipping his DC and an air cleaner certainly isn't a fundamental requirement.

    I'd rather direct my money into better collection at source. ie. a high quality cyclone instead of a single stage collector, or a 3hp cyclone instead of a 2hp, a 5hp instead of a 3hp... and cash left over for a high quality HEPA vacuum.

    Better collection at source is more bang for the buck and you won't notice the cost of a bit of extra run time...

    If money isn't an issue, sure get it all...

    Otherwise I agree with Ole. Forget bags, 2hp cyclone minimum starting point.

    FWIW I have a 2hp Oneida Commercial with a pretty simple run to my machines, I haven't measured the performance but it's far far better than the 1.5hp bag unit and trash can separator it replaced - night and day... I still wish it was bigger though... next shop.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh, Australia
    Posts
    2,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Adamsen View Post
    There are loose floating particles (dust) everywhere. It is the amount and management that is in question.
    I agree and reading my post I should have expanded on my thoughts. My response was to the thought that lowering the standard of primary dust collection and using an ambient filter to recover that dust purposely not caught at the machine was less than a good idea.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Helensburgh, Australia
    Posts
    2,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Anderson View Post
    Sure glad Festool doesn't make a big cyclone, enough bragging on Clearviews as it is. Don't think the rest of us would be able to stand it! I don't subscribe to the gospel of Pentz, but his website does deserve perusing at least once. Just keep in mind he has underlying health issues that push his agenda.
    Everyone has an agenda, me, you, Bill Pentz and so on. I used to frequently get calls from woodworkers and in one case a WW's wife wanting to know how a cyclone could help improve their health which had been damaged by ingesting dust. It seems a straight forward proposition to say that capturing as much dust as possible at source during machining operations is a good thing and I don't think that Bill Pentz says more than that. if there is a cyclone that equals CV's performance then use that but I personally can't say more than that as no other cyclone is available in Australia. Any product that requires handling dusty bags just concentrates the dust problem to handling the bags and they all leak anyway. We are fortunate that our moderate climate means 99% of installations vent straight to atmosphere taking away the necessity to handle filters and I am sure there are parts of the US where that could be done also thus saving money and increasing air flow at the same time.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Southwestern CT
    Posts
    1,392
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    I agree and reading my post I should have expanded on my thoughts. My response was to the thought that lowering the standard of primary dust collection and using an ambient filter to recover that dust purposely not caught at the machine was less than a good idea.
    I understand your point about primary capture. Having the cyclone or vacuum at the source is very important both from a health and operations perspective. Ultra fine dust particles floating around is also a problem, and one that smaller shops often ignore. I had tried to use my cyclone for removing that dust - it seemed like such a rational idea - yet ultimately found it to be ineffective as I described earlier. I am very happy with the "Bill Pentz" air filter and it was a very clever design on his part. It processes a lot of air very quickly. Even so there are many operations where I wear a dust mask or my 3M helmet papr for additional protection.

    Glenn's comments are also instructive. I keep hand planes and chisels handy. Yesterday I had to cut mortises on a drop leaf table and used a chisel and Stanley #71 router plane and got the job done faster than I likely would have with a router, certainly with less dust, noise and electricity. Dust generation is one of my key process flow decision factors.
    "the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools.” Confucius

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •