Combination Plane and Lee Valley Tuition

[William Fretwell]

The plane would be a lot easier to balance and cut if you didn't use it so far away from the edge. A cam rest would help with that if you absolutely needed to cut so far, but for a board that size, why not just flip it and cut closer? It's a perfectly easy cut that way. And as someone else pointed out, you shouldn't be needing the knickers for cuts along the grain.

Actually it's not easier! With the fence starting level with the edge and your thumb on top you have the leverage advantage of the long rods for control. We did play with it closer and had less control. Once the cut starts the fence drops and makes precise control very difficult. Don't forget you will want to use it across wood some day not just on the edge.

We wanted to try the nickers, partly because of some varying grain on part of the maple. Clearly they are essential across the grain. Most of our testing was done with the nickers completely removed.
The cam rest may be worth a try, I will see if I can create one.
The most surprising thing is the serious friction and heat generated by the skates on the maple.

[steven c newman]

Ok...let's try something....next class the OP takes, have them REMOVE the nickers. Unless they are cutting a dado, not needed. The nickers will tend to push the plane out of the cut. Leave them off.

OK, next..set the depth of cut until it barely cuts anything ( even your finger) Start at the far end of the board, and make a few passes to start the cut..work your way backwards until you reach the front end. Make short length cuts as you go. Each step to the rear ( for you) the cut will be just that much , and no longer. Once you have a cut established all the way, then start along like normal. Get about half of the cutting depth, you can deepen the cut....then, just before the final two passes, go back to as thin a cut as you can....works better than sandpaper..

Balance? Thumb on top of the fence, index finger to press the fence towards the work, the other three( if you have all five) wrap around and under the fence, to where you can feel the board being worked on...Maintain contact with that board, to tell all about any leaning going on.

Maybe buy a cam rest, add a bushing so the cam rest fit fit those skinny rods...Then keep your eye on the cam rest, to watch for movement...

[William Fretwell]

Also, how deep are you trying to cut with the knickers?

Not deep, slightly more than just scoring to cut rather than just deform. One side had no issues at all.

[Simon MacGowen]

Actually it's not easier! With the fence starting level with the edge and your thumb on top you have the leverage advantage of the long rods for control. We did play with it closer and had less control. Once the cut starts the fence drops and makes precise control very difficult. Don't forget you will want to use it across wood some day not just on the edge.

We wanted to try the nickers, partly because of some varying grain on part of the maple. Clearly they are essential across the grain. Most of our testing was done with the nickers completely removed.
The cam rest may be worth a try, I will see if I can create one.
The most surprising thing is the serious friction and heat generated by the skates on the maple.

As a seasoned user of both their rabbet plane and plow plane (modified), I don't like what I see in the above as you described. I was expecting an expert -- in the sense of someone having used the new tool a LOT -- from Veritas to give you a hands on tutorial. From the get-go, everything should've worked smoothly as we have seen in the Fine Woodworking site or as shown in the video on the Veritas site.

I expected that whoever was going to tutor you would have worked the plane (almost) to death the day or days before your arrival. He or she would also have tried all kinds of cuts on all kinds of woods and in different configurations. It should have been like presenting a prototype to a group of investors who wanted to invest in the new product. Everything should have been rehearsed and you should not have spent four hours there.

The tutorial should have been done on a plane prepared by them. After that, you would then have to use your own plane to try to achieve the SAME results. If not, your plane could be replaced.

I hope there would be a better explanation to your experience.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Friction will go away...all YOU have to do is rub a plain old candle along the skates, and the fence. About halfway through a job, I'll rub the candle into the cut, leaving a few crumbs behind.....plane cleans these up, cut goes smoother, less friction...wax will leave with the plane, instead of staying on the wood.

Keep an eye on a little thread I am working on. It will involve grooves, and maybe a few beads.....Poplar Project.

[Patrick Chase]

We did play with it closer and had less control. Once the cut starts the fence drops and makes precise control very difficult.

And the diagnosis is: Nonexistent technique.

The fence does not have a mind of its own. If it drops then that means you drove it down. Practice until you can keep the fence level. It's not any harder than anything else we routinely do in woodworking. If you can saw straight then you should be able to manage this with practice.

[William Fretwell]

Friction will go away...all YOU have to do is rub a plain old candle along the skates, and the fence. About halfway through a job, I'll rub the candle into the cut, leaving a few crumbs behind.....plane cleans these up, cut goes smoother, less friction...wax will leave with the plane, instead of staying on the wood.

Keep an eye on a little thread I am working on. It will involve grooves, and maybe a few beads.....Poplar Project.

The wax at the bottom of the cut will leave but the sides I doubt. The skates are so hot the molten wax will penetrate the wood. It does make a huge difference to the cut as we found out.

[William Fretwell]

And the diagnosis is: Nonexistent technique.

The fence does not have a mind of its own. If it drops then that means you drove it down. Practice until you can keep the fence level. It's not any harder than anything else we routinely do in woodworking. If you can saw straight then you should be able to manage this with practice.

The fence drops with the cut, the challenge is keeping it level as you progress with the cut. The smallest sway is magnified by the cutters (even at a very small cut setting). Yes it is harder. Our technique was far from non-existent, despite your definitive 'diagnosis'.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi William

A couple of points: Firstly, as others have mentioned, the nickers are only for cross-grain work, such as dados. Retract or remove them for with-grain work.

Secondly, the ability to balance the plane and hold it vertical comes with practice, in the same way as sawing. For now, rather than concentrate on the plane body, focus your attention on the fence. Use your palm to force the fence flush against the edge of the work. That will ensure it is vertical. The thicker the board you are planing, the more registration, and the easier it is to keep vertical. If you hace a good clamping system, align the side of the board with the side of your bench. That will increase the registration area. The trick is to push the side of the fence, at a central point, with your palm.

Focuss on the fence and you will forget you are balancing on a tight rope.

With regard the resistance when planing, wax the fence and even the skate. Sharp blades and a shallow cut (with nickers out of the way, since they will create drag) is the way to go.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

Hi William

A couple of points: Firstly, as others have mentioned, the nickers are only for cross-grain work, such as dados. Retract or remove them for with-grain work.

Secondly, the ability to balance the plane and hold it vertical comes with practice, in the same way as sawing. For now, rather than concentrate on the plane body, focus your attention on the fence. Use your palm to force the fence flush against the edge of the work. That will ensure it is vertical. The thicker the board you are planing, the more registration, and the easier it is to keep vertical. If you hace a good clamping system, align the side of the board with the side of your bench. That will increase the registration area. The trick is to push the side of the fence, at a central point, with your palm.

Focuss on the fence and you will forget you are balancing on a tight rope.

With regard the resistance when planing, wax the fence and even the skate. Sharp blades and a shallow cut (with nickers out of the way, since they will create drag) is the way to go.

Regards from Perth

Derek

All good points that rabbet and plow users normally follow.

Question is why these were not covered in what was supposed to be a tutorial offering such pointers? All these and more could have been covered in two hours or less (including practice).

I am not trying to be hard on the tool or the tutor, but I am much disappointed by what seemed to be insufficient preparations on the part of Veritas. As I see it, the fault, if any, did not lie with the tutor but with the store that organized and managed the set-up and tutoring.

Simon

[William Fretwell]

Hi William

A couple of points: Firstly, as others have mentioned, the nickers are only for cross-grain work, such as dados. Retract or remove them for with-grain work.

Secondly, the ability to balance the plane and hold it vertical comes with practice, in the same way as sawing. For now, rather than concentrate on the plane body, focus your attention on the fence. Use your palm to force the fence flush against the edge of the work. That will ensure it is vertical. The thicker the board you are planing, the more registration, and the easier it is to keep vertical. If you hace a good clamping system, align the side of the board with the side of your bench. That will increase the registration area. The trick is to push the side of the fence, at a central point, with your palm.

Focuss on the fence and you will forget you are balancing on a tight rope.

With regard the resistance when planing, wax the fence and even the skate. Sharp blades and a shallow cut (with nickers out of the way, since they will create drag) is the way to go.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek your points are all good. The tightrope is a good analogy. Waxing the skate did make a huge difference. Concentrating on the fence was everything, using your thumb to align the top of the fence and the work surface at the start of the cut.
One other problem we found was at the end of the cut, the cutter would dig in and catch, damaging the bead end as the front skates left the board. It was suggested to make the piece longer than needed and cut the ends off. Another challenge to practice!

[Patrick Chase]

One other problem we found was at the end of the cut, the cutter would dig in and catch, damaging the bead end as the front skates left the board. It was suggested to make the piece longer than needed and cut the ends off. Another challenge to practice!

If there's pressure on the front of the skate when it comes off the edge, such that the cutter digs in like that, then you're doing it wrong.

As with any plane you need to shift pressure from toe to heel throughout the stroke. Combo/plough planes (all of them, not just the LV) are more demanding in that respect than most because there is no mouth to register to the sole alongside the cutter, so the consequences can be dramatic if you don't shift pressure to the heel in time.

Granted it can be hard to focus on that, and keeping the fence where it needs to be, and everything else you have to balance with such a complicated plane, which is why there's no substitute for practice.

If it makes you feel any better, we've all been there with this type of plane. Leaving some extra length is a reasonable interim solution IMO.

[Hasin Haroon]

I get that, but with combo planes it's always a compromise. I would pick against the grain, very fine passes over the setup shown by the OP...from my experience with combo planes (old and new) this would work better.

[Hasin Haroon]

It does seem from Williams descriptions that the tutor in this case was not a seasoned user of combination/fenced planes in general...struggling to balance a fenced plane is a technique that everyone has to master the first few times they use planes like these. I agree, it would have been better to have someone who knew how to use these planes to highlight how the plane should perform, rather than have both the tutor and customer struggle and make it seem as though the plane always performs so poorly. That said, it's not easy to have a bona fide hand tool expert that is good at everything present at every store.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Derek your points are all good. The tightrope is a good analogy. Waxing the skate did make a huge difference. Concentrating on the fence was everything, using your thumb to align the top of the fence and the work surface at the start of the cut.
One other problem we found was at the end of the cut, the cutter would dig in and catch, damaging the bead end as the front skates left the board. It was suggested to make the piece longer than needed and cut the ends off. Another challenge to practice!

Hi William

I do not recommend using the thumb to support the fence. I mentioned that it was the palm that is placed against the fence. This pushes the fence against the work piece and/or bench. Here is an old photo from my original review of the Small Plow ...



It is no different when using a rebate plane. Indeed, in the case of the Skew Rabbet, the front knob has been removed as it is unwanted. I rest my thumb on its spot. The pressure is exerted by the palm against the fence ...



With regard the cutter digging in, as Patrick noted, the pressure on the skate must shift backward at the end of the cut to retain registration. Not only that, but pressure is lightened altogether. Keep in mind that there is no longer a depth stop to prevent the blade moving down. You need to stiffen your wrist and hold the position as you travel into the "void".

Regards from Perth

Derek