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Thread: Learned something very interesting today! and a question.

  1. #1
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    Question Learned something very interesting today! and a question.

    Maybe I'm the last one to know this, but I bought a 3HP(12AMP 230v) DC and want to add an iVAC system to use a remote to turn it on. I bought the switch and then read that I need a contactor to run it due to the amp surge on start. OK, I got it and while reading those directions was very confused on how to connect.

    I called iVAC and was told to connect the iVAC remote switch and DC through the contactor and...here is the surprise part( to me) to plug the remote switch it into a 115v 20AMP outlet???

    I'm not an electrical Engineer, so, my question is, can I do this with any 230v machine? Can I have a 230v machine and run it off 115v as long as I wire it through a contactor?

    A contactor is much cheaper than an electrician!

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    the i vac is just actuating the contactor not the machine. any outlet should do you. no, you can not run a 240 machine from a 120 outlet. theoretical max power from you 20 amp outlet is less than 3 hp.

  3. #3
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    Many of us use contactors...a type of relay switch...to control our DCs. The "control" side can be 120v AC or it can even be 12v DC or 24v DC. "Control" is actually a separate circuit from the 240v that will supply your DC's motor. It's only toggling the contactor to switch on or off the 240v power.

    Here's my old thread on the same:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ight=Contactor
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #4
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    Most quality machine tools made in the last 30 years or so use LVC low voltage controls. This means they use a transformer and only run 120 volts or less to the control switches. Often 24 volts is the control voltage. Much safer then 440 volts right under your fingers.
    Bill D

  5. #5
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    They do make vfds that run off 120 volts single phase and output 208-240 three phase. Of course they max out at about one Hp output since the 120 outlet is max of 20 amps.

  6. #6
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    Ivac is controling the contactors coil.

    I do the exact same thing with a $15 indoor outdoor remote from menards on my small cyclone. The remote closes the coil on a contactor that then starts the 5hp cyclone.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Justice View Post
    I called iVAC and was told to connect the iVAC remote switch and DC through the contactor and...here is the surprise part( to me) to plug the remote switch it into a 115v 20AMP outlet???
    David, as others mentioned a contactor is just a big power switch, but one operated by electricity rather than by hand. The 115v is not powering the DC, just switching it on. I have zero knowledge about your iVAC remote switch; perhaps it's similar to what I used, described below.

    If you are not experienced with electrical wiring it might be best to get an electrician to check your contactor and wire it up. If you are comfortable with shop wiring and just need clarification of what to connect to what you might google how to wire a contactor - this was the first thing that came up when I did that: https://www.wikihow.com/Wire-a-Contactor Or describe your contactor (photos of contactor and instructions and the iVAC?) and ask again.

    Like my piano teacher always said, everything's easy once you know how!

    My DC wiring and control (5 hp ClearVue cyclone) in case it would help or if someone else is interested:

    I use an outdoor wireless remote switch similar to this one: https://www.amazon.com/RFK326LC-Outd.../dp/B004ZUKG6Y It consists of a hand-held keyfob transmitter and an outdoor receiver box. It's not the exact one since amazon no longer carries what I bought (the exact model ClearVue supplied with their electrical kit).

    My DC is wired into a circuit which also incorporates a bin-full sensor but the principle is the same: wire the 110v control terminals of an appropriate contactor to a cord and plug it into the outdoor box of the receiver box. To use a remote like that you have to get a contactor designed to switch a least the 3hp 230v motor you have, and with a control coil rated for 115v ac. There are zillions of contactors available and many would work. Mine is a 2-pole contactor rated to switch a 5hp motor.

    Wire the 230v DC motor to the output side of the contactor. Wire the input side of the contactor to a 230v supply line in the shop. The buttons on the hand-held keyfob remote transmitter will then turn the DC on or off. If you don't need the remote feature, you can simply wire the control terminals to a simple light switch instead and flip the DC on like a light.

    If you do use a wireless remote switch of any type one hint: buy several at the same time! This will give you more keyfob remotes you can hang near the machines, a spare in case of failure, and spare receivers as well. I bought four mostly to get extra keyfob remotes - they are pretty cheap.

    JKJ

  8. #8
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    I forgot I had drawn this awhile back for someone else asking a similar question. This is my setup which uses a stationary 120v switch centrally located in my shop. That switch can easily be replaced by any kind of 120v switch, including something with wireless if one prefers. I used wireless remote(s) for awhile but decided they were more trouble than they were worth. The single switch in the middle of the shop works reliably, can't be lost and the act of taking 2-6 steps to get to it helps control the pace of work.

    Last edited by Jim Becker; 11-01-2017 at 11:01 AM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    I forgot I had drawn this awhile back for someone else asking a similar question.
    Great diagram. The only thing I might add is a motor disconnect switch. From this photo it looks like I put it in front of the contactor on the 230v feed from the breaker. The cyclone plugs into the round receptacle.

    DC_power_box_IMG_20150302_110205_647-1.jpg

    Switch needs to be suitable for a motor disconnect: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002MPQ51O

    JKJ

  10. #10
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    Great info guys. The iVAC instructions and diagrams are terrible and misleading. They are a North American company and aren't translating Chinese instructions(I don't think) which seems to be the downfall of most instructions. iVAC really should explain their products better to the purchaser.

    Thanks again for all of the advice and explanations!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Justice View Post
    ...The iVAC instructions and diagrams are terrible and misleading...
    These instructions? What else do you think should have been included to make it easier to understand? The pictures look pretty clear to me. The text is mostly step by step without a lot of background information. Is that what's missing for you? The usual complaints I hear about instructions is too much theory instead of a thorough list of steps. Would you have liked to see a schematic diagram?

    I'm not saying that your feelings about the instructions are invalid, I'd just like to know what you felt was inadequate. I sometimes have to write instructions and it's always helpful to be aware of the different ways they can be interpreted.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by David L Morse View Post
    These instructions? What else do you think should have been included to make it easier to understand? The pictures look pretty clear to me. The text is mostly step by step without a lot of background information. Is that what's missing for you? The usual complaints I hear about instructions is too much theory instead of a thorough list of steps. Would you have liked to see a schematic diagram?

    I'm not saying that your feelings about the instructions are invalid, I'd just like to know what you felt was inadequate. I sometimes have to write instructions and it's always helpful to be aware of the different ways they can be interpreted.
    The instructions look OK to me. But different people understand in different ways. The words are fine but I personally could skip all the words and photos if I had one wiring diagram. Some people need photos with the same colors of wires they have in their hands. In most cases, drawings by a good illustrator can be better than a photo since photos can be confusing. (e.g. the viewpoint for their "Input Power Connection" photo could be confusing because of the wires already installed.) Some people understand far better with a video but they probably don't need to be handling deadly current. (I spent years explaining technical and scientific things with graphics and animation.)

    For instructions like that I think the words, photos/sketches, and a schematic diagram would be perfect.

    JKJ

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    Great diagram. The only thing I might add is a motor disconnect switch. From this photo it looks like I put it in front of the contactor on the 230v feed from the breaker. The cyclone plugs into the round receptacle.
    I actually have a "motor disconnect" for mine...I pull the plug. I put a 240v outlet/plug on the supply side of the contactor so that I can totally isolate the contactor and cyclone if I need to for safety reasons. It was simpler than dealing with a switch...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    ...so that I can totally isolate the contactor and cyclone if I need to for safety reasons.
    ...but if working on the contactor after unplugging don't forget the control voltage to the coil!

  15. #15
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    I suppose that I can't blame them, these were probably written for someone with electrical experience. I don't have much and had never heard of a contactor or what they are used for.

    This diagram is what really threw me. From looking at this it looks, to me, like you plug the tool into the iVAC switch, switch into the wall and contactor, then contactor to DC. I got this same impression when I called their tech support, but I knew that couldn't be correct, which is why I posted the questions here. thankfully I got the info I needed and all is good now, as I have everything connected and working well.

    Now if I can just get all of the pipe and fittings figured out I'll be good :-)

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