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Thread: Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- can someone comment on strengths/weakness?

  1. #16
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    Very true there is plenty of manufacturing in Japanese tools. Most of what I'm referring to are going to range from partially handmade to fully handmade individual makers. This is not necessarily price dependent but there's generally more hand work in the higher end. Lower end are going to use grinders where high end use files and so that is where the roughness comes in for most and something where automated manufacturing has significant improvements in uniformity.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

    It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.
    Oh I completely understand why the price to fit/finish ratio is the way it is, and I wouldn't say they are overpriced by any means. In fact to have any amount of handwork for what they charge is pretty amazing. My experience has been with chisels in the $50 to $100 range, where in the best case they can do a good job on the forging and lamination, but have to rush a bit through the finishing. To some extent the roughness works with the overall aesthetic. My only real complaint is when the back of the tool is out of sorts- it is quite time consuming to correct this while maintaining a halfway decent ura. I have this in mind because I've spent the better part of this weekend flattening the backs of a set of 10 Kikuhiromaru oire-nomi in white steel #2. Each one with a significant concavity along the back, and a few with twist to boot. At least I can tell the steel is very hard, since my Shaptons seemed slower than usual

    But in this price range you can get high-end manufactured Western chisels like lie-nielsen or veritas, where you can expect a negligible amount of work to get them in order. I don't think that makes them superior, since what I really want is a plain high-carbon steel run fairly hard. But for someone considering these tools it's something to consider. More is demanded of the user in setting up and maintaining the tool.

    I would really like to get my hands on the higher end Japanese tools like those you mentioned. My plan is to slowly acquire some really ace white steel #1 paring chisels, finished with file and sen. These will accompany the more proletarian ws2 bench chisels.

  3. #18
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    I agree completely. I don't really place a high value on perfect-perfect. I like a bit of handmade touch, handmade perfection as it were and also agree that the tell-tale signs of quality in my opinion as well beyond the superficial are those that make life easy for setup. Kikuhiromaru can be very good, especially in their white steel #1 tools.

    By comparison here is the front, back and close up at the ferrule for;

    Konobu;







    KuniKei





    Old type Kikuhiromaru (80's stock, they're cleaner currently)




    Kunikei and Konobu are filed as far as I can tell, and Konobu is scraped along the inside of the ura for the gouge and the bench chisel is left forge black over what appears to be a ground surface. Kunikei from what I understand is also using a sen for the ura.

    These are very accurately done, IMO, but they are not machine perfect.

    The steel is wonderful, I have hours upon hours of carving oak on that Konobu gouge and there is not much visible evidence of it, if any.
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  4. #19
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    Brian; you might want to rework that cutting edge in photo #4

  5. #20
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    Thanks for sharing those. The Kunikei in particular is lovely. And the skill to scrape in a neat ura on the gouge...impressive. Your Kikuhiromaru seems a bit like mine, concave on the back leading to removal of more steel near the heel of the blade than you'd like. In time the memory of this weekend's flattening session will fade, ha, and hopefully they will prove to have been worth the effort. I've heard nothing but good things about Kikuhiromaru.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Brian; you might want to rework that cutting edge in photo #4
    The edge is fine, my photography/lighting is to blame.

    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 10-15-2017 at 11:08 PM.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    Thanks for sharing those. The Kunikei in particular is lovely. And the skill to scrape in a neat ura on the gouge...impressive. Your Kikuhiromaru seems a bit like mine, concave on the back leading to removal of more steel near the heel of the blade than you'd like. In time the memory of this weekend's flattening session will fade, ha, and hopefully they will prove to have been worth the effort. I've heard nothing but good things about Kikuhiromaru.
    My pleasure!

    That's accurate for most of Kikuhiromaru in my experience, some better than others of course. They're great chisels however, these have been through it and are my go-to.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #23
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    DC--excellent post.

    My own use has found the Japanese saws to be superior and indispensible. Chisels are split ~50/50 Japanese and western. However my planes are all western: mostly Lie Nielsen, Record, Stanley.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Lau View Post
    I'm pretty new to the Neanderthal thing, and have been slowly learning through trial an error. I've found that Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- have various pros and cons. But I'm not sure if I'm wrong? I'd like your insights.
    Each tradition excels in some ways, and is deficient in others.

    I spent a few days in a city called Dongyang in China some years back having some hand-carved architectural woodworking produced for a project in Tokyo. 500 year tradition of hand-carving absolutely stunning products.



    One thing I confirmed is that the craftsman's mind, eye, and hand are far more important than the tools they use. I expected them to use beautiful tools of exceptional design made from excellent materials. The exact opposite was true. The steel was recycled bandsaw blades and files. The chisels were unimpressive compared to Japan and the West. But they got them sharp enough and they cut good enough. Mind, eye and hand executed the style they were trained in superbly. Change the style and details, and there were some problems. Not insurmountable.



    Much of the carving in the cathedrals of Europe is also stunningly deft and beautiful. Same crappy tools.

    I also spent a day with the shop owner and visited a tool market an hour or so away by car. It was all poor quality.

    The next time I visited Dongyang I took some Japanese chisels, a LN skew rabbet plane, and my Liberty dovetail saw (thanks, Pete!) with me. While my order was being filled, the shop owner and foremen and I had a little competition of who could make a dovetailed drawer (box with no lid) from pre-dimensioned softwood lumber. We had a lot of fun. The guys envied my tools. They had never seen tools so well made, and that cut so well. I gifted them the chisels and plane.

    At the same time, I was having steel structural fasteners being produced in another factory in Guangzhou, and visited it regularly. Perhaps things have improved, but I learned that at that time, decent tool-grade steel was not being produced in China. This explained the tools I saw in Dongyang.

    I guess my point is that China is still far far behind the West and Japan when it comes to hand cutting tools. But that does NOT mean that I believe their work or craftsmen or traditions are inferior. But a comparison of tools would be meaningless.

    So I will compare Western to Japanese tools.

    Western chisels vs Japanese chisels: Softer steel than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Simple design.
    Merits: Easier to sharpen; Less likely to chip or break; Less expensive.
    Demerits: Dull relatively quickly; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; Back difficult to keep flat; Handles won't endure as much abuse.

    Western planes (steel body) vs Japanese Planes; Softer steel blades than Japanese. Generally, lower-grade steel. Not forged. Complicated design. Steel sole.
    Merits; Easier to sharpen; Blade less likely to chip; Less expensive (depends on grade); Sole/body is more resistant to scratching/wear; Modern ductile-iron products more durable); Less warping: Easy to fettle.
    Demerits: Much heavier (not always a disadvantage); Dull quicker; Even when sharp, do not cut as well; More difficult to sharpen (blade is relatively thin and even-hardness at bevel).

    Western saws vs Japanese saws (replaceable blade): Much softer teeth than Japanese induction-hardened saws. Simpler teeth. Push instead of pull.
    Merits: Much easier to sharpen. Simple/shallow/softer teeth less-likely to break; Thick plate less likely to kink if abused. Push cut provides more power. Better suited to cutting hardwoods.
    Demerits: Heavier; Longer (bulkier); Dulls quickly; Simple/shallow/softer tooth design does not cut as smoothly/quickly; Not as energy efficient; Wider kerf; Not as good for cutting softwoods.

    I have little use for Western chisels except for special circumstances and for carving (many more shapes, radii, and profiles).

    I pick and choose planes. Western planes are better for some things.

    I like Western saws for hardwoods, contrary grain, and rough work. Japanese saws for speed and smooth cut and precision. And replaceable blades are often very convenient.

    But you already knew all this, right Matt?

    But going back to China, the tools are not as important to the final product as mind, eye and hand. So is it the journey or the destination?

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 10-16-2017 at 7:09 AM.

  10. #25
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    Originally Posted by Derek Cohen

    First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    You're kidding, right?

    Hi Steve

    No, I meant that. It's a context thing.

    In a nutshell, Japan (East) has been producing advanced tool designs and quality steel for centuries longer than the West. The best of the West is reputed to be the 18th century, and since then we have seen standards going up and down. By contrast, the East have produced quality blades for centuries. The West made some extraordinary blades over about 100 years (don't ask for dates), and then tool steel has relied on metallurgical advances (such as powdered metal) to compete against hand hammered and laminated steels from the East. Its a bit like taking a hammer to swot a fly. The saws are like this. All work but ...

    There are islands of excellence in the modern day West. A number of boutique makers, including yourself, are offering tools that require no excuse. However, when one looks at the bigger picture, there are probably a lot more makers of mediocracy. I do not know the Eastern market as well as the West, so no doubt there are also the also-rans there. However, what I am familiar with appears to continue a general history of excellence.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    ...Western saws vs Japanese saws...
    Merits:..Better suited to cutting hardwoods...
    Gotta disagree with this one statement. Otherwise good post.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Steve

    No, I meant that. It's a context thing.

    In a nutshell, Japan (East) has been producing advanced tool designs and quality steel for centuries longer than the West. The best of the West is reputed to be the 18th century, and since then we have seen standards going up and down. By contrast, the East have produced quality blades for centuries. The West made some extraordinary blades over about 100 years (don't ask for dates), and then tool steel has relied on metallurgical advances (such as powdered metal) to compete against hand hammered and laminated steels from the East. Its a bit like taking a hammer to swot a fly. The saws are like this. All work but ...

    There are islands of excellence in the modern day West. A number of boutique makers, including yourself, are offering tools that require no excuse. However, when one looks at the bigger picture, there are probably a lot more makers of mediocracy. I do not know the Eastern market as well as the West, so no doubt there are also the also-rans there. However, what I am familiar with appears to continue a general history of excellence.
    Hi Derek,
    You're presenting a moving target here. Your original claim ("Japanese tools are…light years ahead of Western equivalents") was that Japanese tools are more advanced, right now. In the post above, you shift to two quite different claims: That the Japanese were ahead of Western makers historically, and that the average quality of Japanese tools is higher. I think all three of these claims are problematic.

    I'd reject the idea that a top-quality Japanese saw is better than a top-quality Western saw, or that a Dai is better than a comparable Western plane. They both have strengths and weaknesses, excelling at certain things and underperforming at others. Japanese saws may produce better surfaces, and it would probably be pretty tough to make kumiko with a Western saw, but a Western saw is easier to maintain, and its surface quality is more than adequate for almost all tasks. A Japanese plane, in the right timber, can sometimes produce a subtly better surface quality, but not always, and the bar for maintaining dai and kanna is much higher than for a Western plan. I think I'd probably rather use a dai for making shoji; I'd definitely rather use Western jack and try planes for turning a big, figured slab into a table top, regardless of wood species. Ultimately the differences are situational and subjective, and certainly one is not "light years" ahead of the other.

    Regarding the historical claim, it's true that Japan was making tool steel far earlier. I don't see how that helps anyone buying tools today, but credit where it's due. It's also true that Japanese high carbon steel is unparalleled, and if all I ever did was chop dovetails, I'd use a Japanese chisel. But there is a lot more to a tool than just the cutting edge, and there is a lot more to steel than just edge retention…

    Is the average quality of Japanese tools higher? I think that's a tough one. We mostly see only what's exported, and I suspect that this filters out both the very low and very high end, creating a more homogeneous impression than is actually the case. It's also tough to compare apples to apples…there is no Western analogue to the highest-priced Japanese chisels--What Patrick referred to as "Brian Holcombe money."

    In the end, for a person who wants to spend x dollars on a tool, it comes down to subjective preference, what you want to make, and how you want to work.
    Last edited by Steve Voigt; 10-16-2017 at 12:55 PM.
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    Is the average quality of Japanese tools higher? I think that's a tough one.
    If you'd asked that question about new-stock tools in 1990 or even 2000, then the answer would have been a resounding "yes". Now I think the picture is less clear, and it's also less clear if you including older Western tools.

  14. #29
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    I've gotten feedback from native Japanese users, westerners and expats, unsolicited, on my tools and the makers are held in high regard. Basically I've determined through various sources that if Stan says it's good, you can bet it is some of the best stuff available in Japan.

    I think it's a matter of personal preferences.
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  15. #30
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    With all I have read on this forum and other places and some, whatever small personal experience, I have a hard time buying into some magical thing that makes Japanese tools years ahead. They have adopted technology, reshaping and impulse hardening so saw teeth don't break off ie. I'm pretty sure they are using steel from Nash Ramblers and Edsels to make chisels. The idea of having a hand forged tool is intriguing. Just like all the conversations about PMV11 I would guess that someone knows what spices are in the soup. I use some Japanese tools, not high dollar ones. I don't like having to think about breaking saw teeth or chipping a chisel edge tho. I didn't like A2 for the same reasons.
    Jim

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