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Thread: Is woodturning really competitive?

  1. #16
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    Harold

    As a non turner, (I do own a lathe and do know how to use it. I just have no interest in turning as the form.) Maybe I can offer some slightly objective answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Balzonia View Post
    Warning: This is a philosophical thread....

    There have been a few times I've been approached at shows and told "I used a lathe in high school and made stuff like this..."

    I turned bowls, platters, and columns, in school also, but I know that it was okay for a teenager.I wasn't making anything close to what I have seen on this forum and at shows.

    I've read forums where people have pretty powerful opinions on how to do things but have never shown a photo of their own work.... That always makes me a little skeptical....

    The proof is in the work. If it's good, it's good. I am always a bit skeptical also.

    And I sometimes look at pictures of turnings and think "I wonder how they did that? ... Could I do something like that? Maybe I could do it better if I did this....."

    This is healthy and not one thing wrong with it. There are folks here on the board doing "flatwork" that just amazes me, and which pushes me me to be more exact with this craft and pay attention to detail. Trying to emulate people's work, like the late Mark Singer's, has made me a much better craftsman. I look at projects I did 25 years ago, and what I can do today, and it's a little embarrassing.

    And that's the thought that gets to me... what is "better" when it comes to wood turning? Do you compare your work to other people's? Do you look at some work and think "meh, I could do that... it's not that hard..."

    To do anything well, is hard. I always approach something new as a learning experience. I may say that doesn't look that difficult, let me try it and teach myself.

    It took me a long while to (mostly) get over comparing my stuff to other people's work. I did this a lot when I first started many years ago. But once I gave up "competing" with others in my own mind, my enjoyment actually increased. And I'm pretty sure my end results improved as well.

    I don't believe I am competing with people. At least I hope not. I do however "compete" to see if I can learn their techniques and incorporate them into my own work.

    I wonder if anyone else has thought about this? Do others view this hobby/career as "competitive" and does it affect the way you work? Do the production turners in the forum feel pressure to "beat" the other guys? (Whatever that means). Are you ever driven to "one up" something you see from another turner?

    There is a certain amount of ego involved in all aspects of woodworking. It makes us all better as long as it used in a healthy manner.
    Last edited by Mike Cutler; 09-24-2017 at 2:54 PM.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  2. #17
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    So far I have been turning only for the purpose of making utilitarian things -table legs, tool handles, pens, utensils, etc. There's a point i think where people start getting into turning bowls and other decorative objects where it goes from woodworking to art. Then as with other artists, its more about challenging and competing with yourself, rather than other turners. That's my observation anyway.

  3. #18
    Harold, I have been interested to see what responses you got. It is difficult to lump all turners into one pot. I am often reminded of the "whittlers" I would pass by when I was a kid. They sat on the courthouse steps, and I would often stop and watch them. Some were happy with just peeling very fine shavings from a cedar stick, with no thought of "making" anything. Others came closer to "carvers" and usually ended up with something recognizable. Then, there were others somewhere in the middle. But, above all, they enjoyed what they were doing, including the fellowship. I view turners much the same way. Some turn simply because they enjoy feeling and seeing the ribbons of wood coming from applying a well sharpened gouge against a piece of wood. Others (I am in this group) see turning as just one process used to produce a finished product. Then, there are others somewhere in the middle. All are equally valid reasons to be a woodturner.

    But, for what little it is worth I thought I would offer my input on some of your questions in red below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Balzonia View Post
    And that's the thought that gets to me... what is "better" when it comes to wood turning? For me, form is of primary importance and overshadows everything else. There are guidelines that when used produce work (whether turnings, furniture, photography, etc.) that is rather universal in its aesthetic appeal. Those guidelines/principals have been the same for centuries. When those are incorporated into a turning, IMO it will be "better" when compared to a piece that has a good surface, beautiful wood, and color, but lacks good form.

    Do you compare your work to other people's? No, and in fact, as you noted I think this is counterproductive and stifles creativity.

    Do you look at some work and think "meh, I could do that... it's not that hard..." Sometimes, but that doesn't address whether I "want" to do so. Like most beginning turners, when I started I often did "want to try that" to as it was a way to push myself and learn new skills. Now, however, while I have no desire to replicate someone's else s work, I may still see techniques, embellishment applications, etc. that I find interesting and I often will think of how I might incorporate that technique into the work I want to do. I have done that with basket illusion, acrylic texturing, embossed texturing, color, metal reactive paints, carvings, and so on.

    Do others view this hobby/career as "competitive" and does it affect the way you work? Yes, but only as to my own work, capabilities and artistic expression. I do sell the vast majority of what I turn and every piece is done as well as I can do it at that moment, with the skills I have, and given the results I intended at the beginning. So in that sense I "compete with myself." However, I know I approach turning from an entirely different perspective than do others. I enjoy turning "one offs" and the "idea" or inspiration happens first, then I develop how the piece needs to be turned, either mentally and often with sketches, and what wood will be used. I am just not interested in competing against anyone else. I am doing the best I can do given what the good Lord has blessed me with, so competing against others would have no gain and would destroy the fun of turning - at least for me.

    Do the production turners in the forum feel pressure to "beat" the other guys? (Whatever that means). Are you ever driven to "one up" something you see from another turner?I am not a production turner, but I would think that if one's livelihood depends on the product produced, there would have to be considerations of price, supply demands, etc. However, once a niche is found, I think those factors may diminish. But, again, my thoughts on this are meaningless as I complete a piece or two every 3-4 weeks, so I am far removed from being a production turner!

    Left click my name for homepage link.

  4. Interesting questions and answers! I turn for my "purposes," period. My purposes may not be the same motivations others may have. I enjoy the craft, it's technical and artistic aspects, the tools involved, and a general love of woodworking in particular.

    I sell my items, so a high degree of quality is required at the galleries, which always challenges me to go the extra step, take the extra time to get high quality finish/form. While the competition is certainly there for the available sales with other turners in our area, I deliberately do not compete with them. Most every turner who sells in galleries are going to have some bowls, pens and bottle stoppers on display, so I go out of my way not to step on others "style" of work, even though I easily could if I wanted to.

    I value the other's efforts and work, and want mine to shine because of it's quality, form, finish and the artistic features I add.
    Remember, in a moments time, everything can change!

    Vision - not just seeing what is, but seeing what can be!




  5. #20
    I have never thought of it as competitive. When I see others' work it inspires me to do better; it doesn't discourage me in the slightest. I think this is how I know it is the right hobby for me.

    i also love seeing beginner work because it gives me a chance to help others as I have been helped and reminds me how far I have come.

  6. #21
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    A good thread with good answers. I've been turning now three years, when I can. My scroll saws keep me busy most of the time.

    Turning, in it's own way, is relaxing for me, takes my mind off the seriousness of other projects goin' on in the shop. It's sometimes amazing to me, how I can chuck up a piece of wood, with no particular design or idea in mind, and end up with something I can add to my scroll work, or even just sit on the shelf to admire.
    I'm self taught. There isn't a club within miles of here. I do have a gentleman I can turn to for advice.
    Competition can be a big word, when it comes to turning, woodworking, etc. That is the one of the main reasons we stopped doing craft events. I refuse to compete with anyone for any reason. I am a self taught wood woodworker, & a scroll sawyer. I have been at this 25 years plus, & continue to learn. I've been fortunate to make several friends in wood working, here included. At times, there are questions that do arise that I'd like answers to, & have found most of them here. Keep turnin'!
    Last edited by Brad Barnhart; 09-24-2017 at 7:54 PM.
    Sawdust703

  7. #22
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    I hate to compare woodturning to golf, but for some it is a profession and some a hobby. For me, it is primarily a hobby with a few sales. I try to judge my work against others, but also try to see improvement in my work or try something new and different. Of course, I can walk out my back door 15 steps any time of day or night and enjoy my hobby workshop (gave up golf in '72 due to lack of time and expense). I do like to see what others do and often will use that as basis to make improvement. I like to take some different types of pieces to SWAT Instant Gallery to not show quality, but things others can certainly do better, and get inspiration to try new ideas based on what others display knowing that there will not be any direct competition between pieces. The big difference is there is not a "par" posted for the turnings. I not sure what the equivalent of "breaking 100" would be with turning, but it seems a lot easier to obtain that in golf.

  8. #23
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    I have never really tried to sell my wood turnings. I probably could (and should, because I am running out of places to put them). I tend to compete with myself - always trying to improve a little bit with each project. But I also tend to take after my Dad, whose name was Jack (he used to say he was a Jack of all trades, and a Master of none). Truth be told, he was a Master of Music and a very smart man. I tend to be a crafty person, suffering from Tangentiality. I start a project, then veer off on a tangent, then pursue that, then veer again, etc., etc. etc. It started a long time ago with leathersmithing, the silversmithing, lapidary, faceting, casting, jewelry manufacturing, 3D CADCAM Jewelry Design and manufacturing, then guitar building, then woodturnng. Funny thing is I still do projects in each media. Although I am not a Master of any. Life seems too short to worry about it though. I have alos found that if a person loves to create, the goal is sometimes momentary - because the next project comes up quickly.
    Maker of Fine Kindling, and small metal chips on the floor.
    Embellishments to the Stars - or wannabees.

  9. #24
    I should start by saying I think that humans are competitive by nature.
    The "I made stuff like this in high school" people are insecure and socially unskilled.
    When I started turning, I heard a lot of EMPHATIC "do this" "NEVER do that" stuff. Thankfully, I heard a couple of people (who's work I admired) say that there is more than one way to do things.
    "Better?" How about more to my taste or in my own style?
    Personally, I look for graceful lines. I'm probably more of a classicist. Every now and then I go off the rails, but mostly not that often.
    At more than one symposium and/or club meeting I've been involved in speed contests, egg shape, ball, egg cup, for instance. I don't think it's been serious for any of us though, just an exercise for "bragging rights."
    I still compare my work to that of those I admire and respect. I think it helps me refine my skills in form and finishing. There are some common forms that I think one has to look at to have a baseline, bowls for instance.
    My 2 cents
    Change One Thing

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Guadiane View Post
    ...
    Personally, I look for graceful lines. I'm probably more of a classicist. Every now and then I go off the rails, but mostly not that often.
    At more than one symposium and/or club meeting I've been involved in speed contests, egg shape, ball, egg cup, for instance. I don't think it's been serious for any of us though, just an exercise for "bragging rights."...
    George, have you seen Mike Darlow's book "Woodturning Design"? I think it is fascinating, especially for those of us who love the "classical lines". And he debunks a myth or two that some critics use as ammunition.

    Your turning contests reminded me of a friendly competition that turner John Lucas got into once with a friend - see who could turn the smallest goblet! Some are so tiny they look like a speck of sawdust. He said he made skews and hollowing tools from sewing needles, had to work under magnifiers. One pore in the wrong place would blow up the stem. May the best man, wi.., er, have fun!

    JKJ

  11. #26
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    Just wanted to show appreciation for the wonderful comments in this thread ... and for the thread. A great deal of passion and deep appreciation of the subject has been shown.


    I am at shows of one kind or another about 60 days a year and get a kick out of the comments such as, "Oh, I can make you one of these ... no problem." I used to tell them I'll bet you $1,000 and give you 24 hours in my shop... the bet is that you can not make one of these. Now I just smile.


    For the guys (and a few gals) who made one in high school shop, it goes something like this. A portly gentleman in his seventies, wearing suspenders and using a cane will stand by my tent. When I don't have a customer, he will ease over to me and oozing nostalgia say, "You know, when I was in 9th grade I made a bowl for my mother. SHE LOVED IT!!! I still have it 50 years later. One turning experience in his life has created a lasting memory that still gives him great satisfaction. These are some of the most endearing characters I meet.


    Hopefully we can all carry the effect that turning has had on us to our grave.


    Gary Baker

  12. #27
    Yes! Of course! The man with the thinnest walls,

    in the largest form,

    with the smallest opening,

    Wins!!!

  13. #28
    Was that contest with Steve Sherman by any chance?
    Steve has a blackwood box about the diameter of an aspirin or Excedrin with three or 4 TINY turnings inside.
    Change One Thing

  14. #29
    I appreciate the thoughtful replies to my post... it seems there is quite a bit of consensus that we seem mostly to compete with ourselves. Makes sense...

    the impetus for the question was a conversation I had with my 10 year old daughter. She asked if I was one of "the best" turners whatever that means to her. In order to get off the topic, I said something like I'm probably the best one that she knows so that's all I care about....

    And I thought about how I have come to the point now where I only turn what I want and use shapes/processes that I find interesting. I couldn't reproduce something I've made if I wanted to. Everything I make is one-off and just comes out of my head.

    And then this weird, contradictory truth hit me.... I realized I don't really care what anyone else thinks about my turnings, but then I will ask for comments about my turnings.... that doesn't make any sense, at all. If I don't care what other people think, how can I dare ask my peers for their comments?

    What I've come up with is: I think I like to hear/read reactions that people have regarding what I've made whether they are good or bad. What does their gut tell them about what they see? After all, I can't do anything to change the piece after it's finished.... perhaps I don't care if what I've created is good or bad, or better or worse than someone else's, I just want there to be some reaction. Honestly, the stuff that I sell the quickest is often the stuff that I think is the ugliest! But it creates a visceral reaction. That's when I know I might have hit on something with a piece. The response I hate the most is the one where someone picks up a piece, puts it down and just walks away.

    Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and reading mine.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Guadiane View Post
    Was that contest with Steve Sherman by any chance?
    Steve has a blackwood box about the diameter of an aspirin or Excedrin with three or 4 TINY turnings inside.
    I should see Sir Lucas in a couple of days and I'll ask him.

    I'd like to try some smaller stuff sometime just for fun. The last tiny turning I did was years ago and don't even come close to Tiny, although they do fit on a penny. Ebony and cocobolo.

    tiny_things.jpg

    I think I can do much better now. I have in mind several small table things all at the same scale, plate, platter, vase, pepper grinder, coffee cup with handle... One advantage to turning tiny is the wood sure goes a long way!

    JKJ

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