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Thread: 45's not kissing tight

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Launier View Post
    Could you cut through each of the mitered joints & then insert/glue a piece of contrasting color (width to suit), then re-miter & re-glue to provide a highlight for each corner?
    I may actually try this for a different section!

  2. #17
    As shooting board and a hand plane makes perfect 45s an outcome every time when perfect is expected.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Wayland View Post
    Any tricks to hiding a 45 miter that doesn't fit nice and tight?
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Wayland View Post
    ...It actually seems to be "disappearing" as the glue dries...
    The time to make corrections is before gluing. That is why we test fit first.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  4. #19
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    In the past, when making picture frames, it was customary to use a picture frame clamp to hold the two pieces together at 90 degrees to each other while you ran a hand saw through the joint to match the cuts of each piece to each other. This actually works quite well, but the exact size of your resulting picture frame can suffer a little, but each corner fit together without gaps at a total angle of 90 degrees..

    There was also a miter fence on the market that had two faces on it that were 90 degrees to each other. To use it for cutting picture frame corners you would set it to 45 degrees and then cut the mating joint pieces using one face of the fence to cut one piece and the other face to cut the second piece. By doing this the joint fit perfectly at 90 degrees, even if the miter fence had been set several degrees off of 45 degrees. The sum of the two angled cuts always totaled 90 degrees, much like the resulting joint in the above example.

    You can also build a sled for your table saw with a V shaped fence set exactly at 90 degrees to each side and both sides set for the blade to cut 45 degrees to them when using either side of the V fence. This accomplishes the 90 degree corner in much and use it the same way as above, even if the angle to the saw blade is off a few degrees. Again, the total angle of the two mating pieces will be 90 degrees.

    The three methods above will work when cutting pieces at 45 degrees to join and make 90 degree corners. You can get pretty fair results using any one of them, after a little practice.


    I now use a MiterSet gauge to set the angle of my standard miter fence and use a stop to get the pieces being cut the exact length needed, since matching the lengths of opposite sides of a multi sided frame is also very important or the corners won't join together correctly, even if they are cut at exactly 45 degrees. A perfect 45 or any other angle needed can be set on your miter fence very accurately in 1/2 degree increments using a MiterSet Gauge.

    There's also a MiterSet Segments Gauge to let you set your miter fence for the angles needed when making segmented circles of up to 17 total segments. The calculated angle for creating some of these segmented circles needs to be accurate to the third decimal place for correct joint fit, but it's easy with the MiterSet Segments gauge. You just place two pins in holes in the gauge, one in either zero position, based on which side of 90 that you wish to cut, then the second pin goes into the hole marked for the number of segments, then set your miter fence firmly against them, lock the miter fence in that position, and then place it in the miter slot of your saw. Each cut that you make will be exactly at the angle that you had set with your MiterSet gauge.

    Any miter fence with a 3/4 X 3/8 bar that fits your saw miter slot without side play can be set very accurately with one of these gauges. I own both of them and I'm very pleased with how well they work and I'm just using either one of my two Delta OEM miter fences on my Delta Unisaw, using these gauges to set them. A fancy miter fence is not necessary, as long as it fits in the saw's miter slot without side play. You can buy both of these gauges for less money than you can buy some of the fancier miter fences on the market that still aren't as accurate and versatile as these gauges will let you set your OEM or other miter fences.

    I'm a very happy customer and have no other connection with the MiterSet Gauge manufacturer or any of their sales agencies.

    Charley

    https://www.miterset.com/pages/demo
    Last edited by Charles Lent; 09-17-2017 at 8:12 AM.

  5. #20
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    Epoxy filler and paint can hide imperfect joints very nicely.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    As shooting board and a hand plane makes perfect 45s an outcome every time when perfect is expected.
    You're joking right? This method introduces many more opportunities for error, requiring great skill and a lot of practice to pull off. Just getting the plane tuned and the iron sharp enough takes a substantial effort and learning curve, as many, many long sharpening threads in this forum demonstrate. Getting your shooting board at the exact correct angle seems to be exactly the same problem as setting any other machine in the shop to a perfect angle. If for some reason it's actually easier I'll happily give it another look.

    Perfect miters of any size are a fool's errand in any event because of the difference between shrinkage in length and width in wood with changes in humidity. If they aren't open when you cut them they will be open later.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    You're joking right? This method introduces many more opportunities for error, requiring great skill and a lot of practice to pull off. Just getting the plane tuned and the iron sharp enough takes a substantial effort and learning curve, as many, many long sharpening threads in this forum demonstrate. Getting your shooting board at the exact correct angle seems to be exactly the same problem as setting any other machine in the shop to a perfect angle. If for some reason it's actually easier I'll happily give it another look.

    Perfect miters of any size are a fool's errand in any event because of the difference between shrinkage in length and width in wood with changes in humidity. If they aren't open when you cut them they will be open later.
    No I'm not joking, I do it all the time and get perfect mitres of various degrees. You make woodworking sound like a black art, not a straight forward time honoured craft. I have machinery and hand tools, something tells me that you are a machine guy. Nothing wrong with that but it's clear from your post that you could benefit greatly from learning to use hand tools.

    It's also clear that you don't sharpen your own tools. Anyone who takes away what you did from the Neander forum may read a lot but I suspect that you can't sharpen in your shop. No shame in that but again you're missing out on one of the fundamental skill sets that would open up your woodworking efforts.

    As far as dialing in your shooting board, it's no big deal at all.

    I would never make woodworking appear to be more difficult than it is. I have learned to filter out those that do.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    ...I would never make woodworking appear to be more difficult than it is...
    How hard can it be? Even girls do it.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  9. #24
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    Dec 2010
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    WNY
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    The OP was trying to fix his already glued frame, but you are right that a shooting board is the cat's meow for dialing in perfect miters. I'm primarily a power tool guy, but after struggling to get perfect, tight fitting miters too many times, it finally dawned on me that a shooting board was the answer. One only has to look at all that perfect joinery in the old mansions or the work of the European and American furniture masters (and probably Asian, too, I'm just completely uninformed about them0, to see what and still is possible using only hand tools. It's not hard to sharpen a hand plane iron until it's scary sharp, and it's absolutely required to get good results, nor is it hard to dial in a shooting board. Once you do, it's a joy to use and gives you joints so tight you can't see the seam, and it does it quickly.

    John

  10. #25
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    Aug 2014
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    Coincidentally, Pop Wood just posted an article on Miter Shooting Boards on their blog:

    The Genius of Miter Shooting Boards

    It might answer some of the concerns and remove some of the doubts some feel.

  11. #26
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    I always have a shooting board on my bench when trimming houses, use a low angle jack as that is what have and it is a time saver. Quite often I need a little back bevel on trim because of wall surfaces falling away and by skewing the iron I can get what I need without going back to the saw. When I need a slight miter angle change, I use a little hardwood wedge/shim to change the angle of the piece I am planing. Sounds hard but it is easy and soon becomes second nature. Working on houses, almost nothing is ever perfectly square, etc. so it is a handy way to true up work with no power tools.

    Try it. You will like it!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    You're joking right? This method introduces many more opportunities for error, requiring great skill and a lot of practice to pull off. Just getting the plane tuned and the iron sharp enough takes a substantial effort and learning curve, as many, many long sharpening threads in this forum demonstrate. Getting your shooting board at the exact correct angle seems to be exactly the same problem as setting any other machine in the shop to a perfect angle. If for some reason it's actually easier I'll happily give it another look.

    Perfect miters of any size are a fool's errand in any event because of the difference between shrinkage in length and width in wood with changes in humidity. If they aren't open when you cut them they will be open later.
    12 times to do this top with a hand plane.
    Jim
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    Nothing wrong with that but it's clear from your post that you could benefit greatly from learning to use hand tools. ... It's also clear that you don't sharpen your own tools.
    OK, joking was a poor choice of words on my part.

    Well, I confess to using machines. I also have dozens of hand planes, chisels, and carving tools. All of them are sharp enough to take a good shaving, and there's no one else around here to sharpen my tools for me. I use whatever tool seems most appropriate for the job at hand. For a lot of my work that is a hand tool rather than a machine. I don't do a lot of hand sawing, pretty much only dovetails and other small parts. Trimming to size and precise fit is almost always with a plane.

    I will confess that it took me years to get reasonably proficient at setting up and sharpening all of those tools, and in some cases I'm still learning. Even more years to learn to use them effectively-- I may well run out of years before I master that, but for most things I can use them well enough. It was from that perspective that I wrote.

    I certainly didn't mean to suggest that someone should not learn to use a plane, only that it has a much steeper learning curve than cutting an angle with a jig on a machine. If one is having trouble cutting an exact angle in the first place I don't see how doing it by hand helps. You need to be able to make the same precise cuts or small angular adjustments to make your shooting board in the first place, unless there is something I really don't understand about the process.

    Is there a better way to get to an exact miter angle other than "sneaking up" on it? I'll cut something close, test the fit, adjust, and try again until I get what I want, whether it's building a jig or adjusting a machine. Once it's dialed in I can make as many parts as I want. Have I been missing a better way?

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