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Thread: How do you sharpen your edges?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Hutchinson477 View Post
    I use diamond plates and then I finish on a Spyderco ceramic stone. I tried one of the extra-fine diamond plates but I found that it didn't leave the fine polish that I was after--the edge was still a little scratchy. After some research I found that a lot of these stones had "rogue diamond particles" that were bigger than the rest, and since it's a diamond stone they don't wear down.
    The "rogue particle" problem is specific to the nickel electroplating process that's used to bind the diamonds to most plates. Loose diamonds don't have that problem, nor do resin-binder options like the Shapton flattening plate or the various diamond films (though don't use a Shapton plate on metal, ever. The resin binder won't hold up under that sort of usage).

    You might therefore want to give diamond paste and/or lapping films a try. They both leave very uniform scratch patters, provided you stick to high quality, tightly graded pastes/films. In my experience they're the fastest sharpening option there is, and the best for difficult alloys and carbide tools.

    The lowest startup cost option is the 3M 668X PSA lapping film that LV resells. You can get those for less in 25-sheet inners from other suppliers, but LV's prices are hard to beat for small quantities.

    One other piece of advice: Stick to glass as your substrate when using diamond films. Granite surface plates have texture that "telegraphs" through the film at fine grits. Ditto for machined metal plates, unless they've been thoroughly lapped.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-19-2017 at 4:07 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    "Sharpening for the one percent" :-)

    Full disclosure: While none of my sharpening gear individually costs as much as a quality JNat, I'm at least as bad as Brian. I have a weakness for high-quality cast iron laps with diamond paste, diamond lapping films, CBN wheels, and good synthetic waterstones. Like Brian I use oilstone slips. I also have waterstone slips that I ground to match specific frequently-used tools by cutting up nearly-used-up waterstones, though as Brian says those take more maintenance because they lose shape.
    Hah! Funny enough I decided to use only synthetics for Kez to see if I could do just as well as with naturals. They came very very close, I was able to eek out a better shaving with the natural stone over the synthetic.

    Thr reasonably priced stones are the odd shaped thin ones, which with a base are practically similar but of course will wear out sooner. Some can be had for $75-$100~
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I also use oil stones because they retain their dimensions better than water stones and so they work nicely for slip stones.
    Speaking of "high startup cost"... Did anybody else fall prey to the siren song of this expensive doodad?
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-19-2017 at 4:41 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Eisenhauer View Post
    I use waterstones (switched to Sigma Power something or another from Stu after using King stones for a number of years) for normal sharpening and have a double sided diamond plate for coarse work and back flattening. I also use sandpaper on a piece of glass for real basic flattening and shaping (barely showing on the right hand edge of the photo).
    IMO this sharpening setup is a very good balance between performance (edge quality and speed), startup cost, and long-term economics. You're using sandpaper where it's most cost-effective and offers the greatest performance benefit, waterstones where they're most economical, and the diamond plate where it's best suited. You could dispense with the diamond plate and have a cheaper and still very serviceable setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Eisenhauer View Post
    Sometime last year I added a piece of MDF with the green Lee Valley honing compound to the collection for stropping, but I cannot truthfully say I see any improvement after use so I have slowly tended to forget to use it.
    Assuming you're using the Sigma 13K, that stone has 0.75 um abrasive. The LV compound is nominally 0.5 um but with a significant fraction of much larger alumina particles, so in reality the Sigma leaves a finer edge. What you describe here is exactly what I see with the same media, and it's consistent with their known/stated abrasive particle sizes. I only use the honing compound when I want some "give" to handle convex edges or a non-flat profile for concave ones.

    As Brian said, make sure you clean thoroughly if you use bleach. It's particularly hard on bronze.

  5. #20
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    I'll second what someone else wrote about the Tormek. I bought one of the T7s, with the 200 grit wheel. I was so impressed, I bought another with the 6000 grit waterstone. It is expensive, but if you think of sharpening as just something you need to do, and want to get it done as fast and efficiently as possible, give the Tormek a look. It's an extravagance to have two for sure, but if you get one, you could put on a nice secondary bevel with any high grit waterstone of your choice. This thing does it all, flattens backs, grinds, you name it. It's fantastic. There are a ton of accessories that you can get to go with it as you need them.

    For my set up, I have both adjusted just right, so I can regrind the hollow grind with the 220 grit stone, leave it in the jig, wipe it off and grind the secondary bevel with the 6000 grit stone. Takes about 2 minutes and the edge is fantastically sharp. Sometimes I use the green compound on the leather wheel, but it's so easy to sharpen, I usually don't bother. Can I be obsessive and sharpen to 20000 grit with some super high end laser impregnated stone for that ultimate edge? Sure, but again, 6000 is plenty sharp, so why bother when it is so easy to regrind to sharpness?

  6. #21
    I often see the claim that sandpaper honing is expensive compared to waterstones. These claims are unsupported by the facts, unless you assume that the sandpaper must be changed much more often than is necessary. I think that this assumption, about how often a sheet of sandpaper will last, is actually the root of the disagreement. I do concede that coarse paper must be replaced frequently when you are trying to remove a lot of steel, e.g., flattening the sole of a plane. But when honing already sharp edges, a sheet of SiO2 sandpaper still cuts to a very satisfactory degree after many sharpenings.

    The following prices are from the Lee Valley online catalog and Amazon (for the 220 grit paper) in March 2017.

    8000x Water Stone $99.00 vs. 0.5µ Chromium Oxide paper, Plain $2.70/sheet
    4000x Water Stone $69.00 vs. 5µ Silicon Carbide, PSA $3.25/sheet
    1000x Water Stone $52.50 vs. 15µ Silicon Carbide, PSA $3.25/sheet
    220x Water Stone $31.50 vs. 220 grit Silicon Carbide $1.73/sheet
    Truing Stone for Water Stones $34.50 vs plate glass, granite, negligible cost??
    TOTAL $286.50 for waterstones vs. $10.93 for sandpaper

    As far as I know, these Norton waterstones are the least expensive that Lee Valley sells. I see people recommending very much more expensive stones. So I am being conservative. The stones are 7-7/8" x 2-7/8" . The sheets are 8½ x 11" So each sheet yields 3-4 hones of equivalent size to the stones. So, clearly, the initial investment in sandpaper sharpening is about 4% of the initial investment in waterstones. I cannot estimate lifetime costs because I don’t know how long the waterstones would remain useful. Mine wore away quickly, especially because I kept them flat. I think two sheets of paper (6-8 hones) might be enough to last a year. So say the annual cost of sandpaper sharpening is $20.00. So, the “break-even” point is about 14 years out. I wonder if waterstones, which need to be flattened after each session, will even last 14 years. Maybe so, but the idea that sandpaper sharpening is “too expensive” is not supportable by facts.

    Of course, I do not care what people do in their own shop. Stones are certainly in vogue right now. But I feel that we are obliged to base our opinions on fact. Otherwise, the range of our opinions will "overwhelm" the newcomer, as stated above.

    Doug
    Last edited by Doug Hepler; 08-19-2017 at 6:18 PM. Reason: attempting to improve formatting

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hepler View Post
    I often see the claim that sandpaper honing is expensive compared to waterstones. These claims are unsupported by the facts, unless you assume that the sandpaper must be changed much more often than is necessary. I think that this assumption, about how often a sheet of sandpaper will last, is actually the root of the disagreement. I do concede that coarse paper must be replaced frequently when you are trying to remove a lot of steel, e.g., flattening the sole of a plane. But when honing already sharp edges, a sheet of SiO2 sandpaper still cuts to a very satisfactory degree after many sharpenings.
    Sandpapers and stones use the same abrasives: SiO2 (arks, JNats), AlOxide or Alumina-ceramic (India, most synthetic waterstones), or SiC (Crystolon, some synthetic waterstones). Each abrasive particle lasts roughly the same amount of time in either medium. The difference is that there is one layer of abrasive in a sheet of sandpaper, versus many layers in a stone. That's what drives the economics.

    Consider a 2000# stone, with a grit size of about 5 um (JIS). A 1" thick stone therefore contains on the order of 25 mm / 5 um = 5,000 layers of abrasive particles. However long you claim a piece of 2000# sandpaper will go, a 2000# stone with the same abrasive type can last thousands of times as long, subject to three assumptions: First, that they're the same area. Second that the stone's binder is hard enough to "fully utilize" the abrasive particles before releasing them (this is why we use hard stones for "easy" steels and softer stones for exotic steels). Third that you don't abuse the stone, for example by honing in one spot such that you waste huge amounts of abrasive via flattening.

    Obviously the waterstone doesn't do quite as well at 100# (150 um particles, ~170 layers of abrasive), but at high grits sandpaper and films are orders of magnitude more costly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hepler View Post
    I cannot estimate lifetime costs because I don’t know how long the waterstones would remain useful

    If you cannot estimate lifetime costs then why did you claim an understanding of the relative total costs of sandpaper and waterstones? The difference between the two is fundamentally a matter of relative life. If you don't understand the mechanisms underlying lifetime then you can't possibly understand the economics.

    EDIT: Softened in light of subsequent concern (removed first sentence)
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-20-2017 at 1:52 PM.

  8. #23
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    I cannot estimate lifetime costs because I don’t know how long the waterstones would remain useful. Mine wore away quickly, especially because I kept them flat. I think two sheets of paper (6-8 hones) might be enough to last a year. So say the annual cost of sandpaper sharpening is $20.00. So, the “break-even” point is about 14 years out. I wonder if waterstones, which need to be flattened after each session, will even last 14 years.
    Sometimes in a single day I may hone more than 6-8 blades.

    The idea that water stones need to be flattened after each session is a myth.

    My water stones are more than 10 years old and will likely last another 10 at least.

    If one wants to go an inexpensive route, a few good oilstones might be purchased for less than water stones.

    Sandpaper on steel wears rather fast. One of my early attempts to sharpen on the cheap was with abrasive sheets. They can give up their grit rather quickly.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 08-20-2017 at 3:22 AM. Reason: removed untoward comment
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hepler View Post
    I think two sheets of paper (6-8 hones) might be enough to last a year.
    Wait, you hone 6-8 times a YEAR?

    Yeah, OK, sandpaper is unquestionably the right choice for your [non-]use model because you'll never amortize the up-front costs for anything that lasts longer. As Jim said, most of us hone multiple times per day, at which point the cost of sandpaper really adds up.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 08-19-2017 at 7:02 PM.

  10. #25
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    When I am chopping things at the bench...mortises and such....Every so often, I will give the edge and back of the chisel in use, a few strokes along the pants leg of my jeans....then back to work.

    Keeps things sharp enough to last the project. 5-6 passes on the bevel...couple on the back....simple and quick to do.

  11. #26
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    Thanks for the info Stanley. I did not realize that bleach could cause problems and will look into sourcing Borax. The double sided diamond plate (300#, 600# I think) is mainly used for flattening backs of used plane irons and chisels, plus working over cap irons for a tight fit up. They definitely do not cut as quickly as they used to and do not see much use. I do have a grinder for use in getting rid of chips and hollow grinding when I go that way. I am familiar with rubbing two stones together to achieve flat, but two stones of the same grit would be costly for me. The Diaflat works well for stone flattening and was bought many years ago when I was better able to afford such stuff. It seems like it will last a long time. I am interested in Jim's opinion that constant flattening is not necessary and will start trying that method out. Over the years, I have looked at sales photos of the stone holders with interest, but have always wondered if they were cheesy or not and worth the expense. I had a wooden holder with wedges finally give up the ghost a couple of years ago and have been using the piece of shelf liner instead. I can't quite make out the brand name of the holder you show, but may relook at trying one of those out after your recommendation.
    David

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Eisenhauer View Post
    Thanks for the info Stanley. I did not realize that bleach could cause problems and will look into sourcing Borax. The double sided diamond plate (300#, 600# I think) is mainly used for flattening backs of used plane irons and chisels, plus working over cap irons for a tight fit up. They definitely do not cut as quickly as they used to and do not see much use. I do have a grinder for use in getting rid of chips and hollow grinding when I go that way. I am familiar with rubbing two stones together to achieve flat, but two stones of the same grit would be costly for me. The Diaflat works well for stone flattening and was bought many years ago when I was better able to afford such stuff. It seems like it will last a long time. I am interested in Jim's opinion that constant flattening is not necessary and will start trying that method out. Over the years, I have looked at sales photos of the stone holders with interest, but have always wondered if they were cheesy or not and worth the expense. I had a wooden holder with wedges finally give up the ghost a couple of years ago and have been using the piece of shelf liner instead. I can't quite make out the brand name of the holder you show, but may relook at trying one of those out after your recommendation.
    Your supermarket will carry Borax (Twenty Mule Team) in the laundry detergent aisle.

    Try mixing some borax in with the water in the bottle you squirt your stones with too.

    You don't have to have 2 finishing stones, but the rougher stones are not that costly.

    There are better brands of rubber/steel stone bases. Some of the Chinese knockoffs rust and bind quickly. Not sure what you can buy where you live.

  13. #28
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    I often see the claim that sandpaper honing is expensive compared to waterstones. These claims are unsupported by the facts ..

    Doug, it is not about cost, but about convenience. Certainly, when considering a total sharpening setup, for some it it about cost. But for most, myself especially, it is about how efficiently one can create a sharp edge and return to work ... assuming that you do not like sharpening, that is. I hate sharpening.

    Costs begin to stack up when machines are included for grinding, such as a hollow. One can get away will a simple 6" hand powered "cranker", or even the next step up, a cheap 6" powered bench grinder. Then one moves up to Pete's favourite Tormek, a slow wet grinder. I have one and it is indeed excellent. But I went a step further and added CBN wheels to a half speed 8" grinder - cool, precise and quick.

    All this add to cost, and does not necessarilyt get you edges that are any better than freehanding on a flat grind on sandpaper. What it gets you is an edge in less time and less effort in the honing area.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  14. #29
    Derek,

    I agree that there are many issues in addition to cost (and meant to say so earlier). I was just commenting on what I believe to be an erroneous belief about the relative cost of sandpaper sharpening. I happen to find sandpaper to be the most convenient for me, after many years trying oilstones and waterstones. I have a small shop and find that I can tuck away my lapping plate easily and pull it out when I need it. Others will use whichever method(s) they like, and welcome to it. I have no argument with them about how they prefer to work. One of the activities I like even less than sharpening is flattening waterstones. But everybody to their own bed.

    All,

    Evidently some people have been offended by a contrary opinion. I expected to get flamed, so no worries. Facts are stubborn things, aren't they? They are always subject to interpretation, but it is hard to show how sandpaper is so expensive compared to waterstones. In response to the post about "most of us". Firstly, "us"? Anyway, I did not say that I hone 6-8 times a year. I was referring to the number of fresh pieces of sandpaper "hones" that I can get from a sheet of sandpaper. A sheet of sandpaper will yield about 3-4 pieces that are about the same size as a waterstone.

    I'm in my shop at least four hours a day, probably more than some novice woodworkers who have read an opinion that sandpaper sharpening is too expensive for them. (It used to be more like eight hours a day, but I'm getting old.) However much time I'm working, I manage to keep my tools as sharp as I need for handwork. Mainly they stay sharp because I hone them very lightly and frequently with rouge on a leather or hard felt strop. (Actually, worn sandpaper is a great medium for that purpose.) If I need to remove lots of steel (not very often these days) I dry-grind and then hone on sandpaper. After that, the edge is easy to maintain.



    Doug
    Last edited by Doug Hepler; 08-20-2017 at 12:01 AM. Reason: clarification

  15. #30
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    Imo sandpaper Don't get me wrong it creates a very sharp edge, but the reason I hate using it is the setup. Huge frickin, hassle. I tried using water friction to hold it down, no go. Tried spray adhesive (maybe I bought the wrong type) but that really really to get off. Finally I settled on clamping it down and that works but is very finicky. Bought the only real use I want sandpaper for is flattening backs or initial bevel shaping. Which to get over my above issues I buy the adhesive backed stuff. But when you don't want to spend a bunch of money on the unknown, it is cheap and works.

    Now I use a soft white / hard black ark. I would like to add a coarser stone for initial bevel shaping or getting a better tool rest for my grinder. To which I have to ask, which would be better? It seems like if I got a good tool rest like the Veritas, I could skip the coarser stone?
    Last edited by Lee Schierer; 08-24-2017 at 9:01 AM.

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