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Thread: Craftsman front door build

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    And those ^^^^^^ are just some of the reasons I too only do solid doors. I have laminated with solid lumber on one door because of unavailable stock thickness in 20 + years. 3 1/4" quartered white oak.
    Every additional glue joint is a potential failure plane in exterior work.
    Hickory is NOT a wood I would use for an exterior door.
    Almost no rot resistance, and huge movement with humidity swings.
    That is the truth Peter. At one time I thought stave core was the answer to everything. I consider our 3 layer lamination the same as solid wood with no glue joints in the sticking. You east coast guys have good sources for 10 and 12 quarter material. Its a desert here in Colorado for that thickness.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    That was an odd choice, Mreza. I would have used TB III for the core and epoxy or PRG to glue on the skins, and epoxy for the joinery. TB III creeps pretty badly as the temp. gets hot, and a dark colored door facing the sun does get hot. Fortunately, your door is just moving and the skins aren't coming off.

    Don't put a storm door over it!

    John
    I used epoxy for tenons too; TBIII only for skins. My thinking was that the core being being quarter saw vs flat saw of skin might need a little bit of flex for movement, hence the choice of TBIII.
    Yes, the door gets hot even to touch in summer.

  3. #33
    For a full sun dark color door ,I think Mreza's door is doing pretty well.

  4. #34
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    Joe, Unibond 800 has water in it, too. It's just that's in the resin part already, to which you add the catalyst powder. With Weldwood PRG everything is already in the powder to which you add water to activate it. In the end, I think they both have about the same amount of water in them when mixed.

    I haven't built many doors but I've done a lot of veneering with PRG on much thinner stock than a door member. I won't pretend I've never had anything bow, but it's been very rare. I favor composite materials over solid stock for stave core construction because it's inherently more neurtral in behavior. I veneer both sides and use a vacuum bag, so everything is always balanced. When it comes out of the bag, at final thickness, I make sure to keep the panels or door members on edge or stood up so air can freely circulate around all sides. Problems have been very few.

    The one glue I won't use for shop sawn veneer is PVAc. I want a rigid glue line between the veneer and substrate, one that won't creep over time or let loose if the temp. gets above 150F. That means only UF or epoxy.

    Personally, I wouldn't use hickory for an exterior door either, but I'm not sure it makes much difference as long as the finish is sound. White oak may not rot if water gets under the finish, but it sure looks awful in short order. Once we get past survival of the construction, finish integrity is key to any door looking good over the long haul. I understand why a commercial shop wouldn't use hickory or other low rot resistant woods, but for a small shop or hobbiest willing to take the extra steps required to seal the wood wherever water can get to it's probably fine. On the Sapele door I showed above, the moldings are glued in with epoxy (and no nails) and finished on the inside as well the exterior. The giant dado for the hidden bottom seal is similarly finished. These were steps some folks wouldn't go to but I think make a real difference on how the door will look in 10 years, assuming the homeowner maintains the finish. We'll see.

    John

  5. #35
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    I used VG fir

    I used VG fir to build my front door about 15 years ago. It is 1 3/4" thick, has 6 low panels and three vertical leaded glass panes in the upper portion.
    It is a painted door and has held up well.

    I also made my back door, 1 3/4" thick, fir, top half has an armored glass pane. Bottom half has a pet door in it. It also has held up well.
    I think fir is superior for moisture resistance.
    I have my daddy's Black and Decker hinge mortising kit which makes mortising the hinges a snap.

    They were both fun projects.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 08-09-2017 at 3:37 PM.

  6. #36
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post

    Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

    For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

    John

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

    For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

    John

    Hi john this is what i do for solid wood back to back panels for seals. the tin foil is for reflective heat .

    jack
    English machines

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

    For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

    John

    on thick doors and jams this is what we do for thermal

    jack
    English machines

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    Thanks Lowell. I remember that article; just went and read it again. I like some of his methods, but not all. We've already talked about solid stock vs. stave core so no point in plowing that ground any more. Clearly both work and people can choose which they prefer based on their beliefs, equipment, track record, etc. Gluing up the door before finishing the panels ain't happening in my shop. That alone is a strong reason to use glued in moldings to hold the panels, or Jack's approach for flat panels. But overall, the author makes a good point of demonstrating that it's not all that hard to build a serviceable door. Of course, he didn't talk much at all about weather seals and sills, nor building a frame to incorporate them into a weather tight unit. That alone is a whole topic for discussion.

    For me, exterior doors was a challenge worth taking on. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning a lot. To date, I've been extra cautious and extra thorough. So far, so good.

    John
    here is how i seal door to jam

    jack
    English machines

  11. #41
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    I think veneering an exterior door is a poor choice. Every veneered door that I have had eventually failed.
    My solid fir doors are over 20 Years old and are nowhere near failure.

    If you have a door that is subject to the afternoon sun in Galveston County, Texas, the veneer will fail. I speak from experience.

    I have had commercial solid doors split when in the afternoon sun.

    My solid fir doors do not split.

    Well, that's just my experience.

    Of course, everyone does not care to build a door.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    I think veneering an exterior door is a poor choice. Every veneered door that I have had eventually failed.
    My solid fir doors are over 20 Years old and are nowhere near failure.

    If you have a door that is subject to the afternoon sun in Galveston County, Texas, the veneer will fail. I speak from experience.

    I have had commercial solid doors split when in the afternoon sun.

    My solid fir doors do not split.

    Well, that's just my experience.

    Of course, everyone does not care to build a door.

    here in Ottawa Canada we have some real temperature extremes. 60degs Celsius. In mid winter the out side temperature gets to - 30c . Solid wood doors up here pop like Orville Redenbacher. Douglas Fir rots with in only a few years so i don't use it . old growth white pine if i can find IT IS BETTER. VG old growth DF is way more costly then Mahogany a much better chose up here as a lasting wood . Doors on the parliament buildings down town Ottawa are stave core and over 130 years old . i do not think that the glues they use would be anywhere near what they are to day,Yet there they are. They face south and are under a bell tower with some protection . Now had they not been maintained with paint over the years they may not have lasted . If you don't maintain woods doors there not much hope in them lasting long no matter how you build them . On my shop I have dark doors facing west so i can show people what a doors goes through . Problems show up in a year. Much of the movement in stave core is not letting the cores rest for a week or two before flatting again or discarding rejects for the skins. Venere skins in excess of an eighth of an inch tend to behave more like solid and so I keep skins maximum thickness to .125 or less . On the exterior I never have skin with face joints on wide rails alway a wide board . I have found that the belection molding that's rabbeted the edge protects X exposed joints very nicely . hard square edges that are not pitched to drain in these locations contribution to the failure there . Even with square edge work for exterior I do you put at least 5° slope to the frame on horizontal elements . I use water based glues TBIII although UR is a good glue too i stooped using it years ago . Polyurethane glue i avoid like the black death. This is the stave core we just finished this week on a registered house in the historic district. City covered $5000 worth of the cost through their heritage grant program .IMG_1066.jpg
    Last edited by jack forsberg; 08-10-2017 at 1:17 PM.
    jack
    English machines

  13. #43
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    Like Peter mentioned stave core - veneer is not the answer to everything. The 9 1/2' tall thin fir door we did veneer. Its north facing with a fair overhang. I went through a pile of solid VG I had here and could not come up with any boards that would make a solid stile that length. If you make custom doors for a living you need to be well versed on a few construction methods. I think my shop associate and myself working part time last year only built 50 or so doors. In years past with a crew many more than that. You soon find out what works and what does not in your local climate.

    Fir will rot in a wet environment. Its dry here in Colorado so its a good choice here and VG fir is easy to work. And it fits in well with the mountain architecture. We use a lot of mahogany also. The pine available now days is not the same as what door builders were using 100 years ago. Heartwood pine with a tight grain will do well to the weather. We built a commercial retail building 20 years ago to match the local historic mining camp architecture. The wood facade has held up well except for the window sills. I made those out of some tight grain Ponderosa I had that thought they would do well. Not!! I seem to recall there was some sapwood.

    Here is a picture of some Honduras Mahogany doors we made in 1979. East facing with a small overhang. The owner has done a good job of keeping them up.

    St Elmo doors.jpg

  14. #44
    I still have a lot of confidence in NE white pine (Pinus strobus). But company buyers without strict oversight will often buy something 'kinda like it'. Lots of complex veneered furniture still around because of its stability; and that was all air dried wood. And lots of old sash and doors. Agree you don't get a lot of special doors per year, but I did once make 35 unassisted for one house.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Fulks View Post
    I still have a lot of confidence in NE white pine (Pinus strobus). But company buyers without strict oversight will often buy something 'kinda like it'. Lots of complex veneered furniture still around because of its stability; and that was all air dried wood. And lots of old sash and doors. Agree you don't get a lot of special doors per year, but I did once make 35 unassisted for one house.
    When I find good white pine I do use it . A friend of mine is dropping a couple 6 foot diameter trees that I'm having him cut for a grade . Should keep me in stock for a long time . I only build specialty doors so volumes are small but quality high
    jack
    English machines

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