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Thread: Veritas combination plane.

  1. #61
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    It seems to me- and not just here, but on other forums as well- that there are some that feel like if you pay more for something, then you must be trying to (insert reason here: prove a point- be cool- fit in- etc.) and there is always some bickering about new versus old, and you can get this for $x but the new one is $XX. There is always someone with an air of bravado in their posts- "Oh, I don't know why you would buy that when the old one does the same thing," but it doesn't do it the same way. The new one doesn't have a fence that racks, and has a fine adjuster, and threaded depth adjuster that is less likely to move around, and modern alloys, and what's wrong with just liking the way it looks/feels? Why the high horse on these things? My personal take is I understand the guy that chooses the cheaper option, as well as the one that goes with the more expensive one. Each of you chose a value- but each saw a different value. You are neither right nor wrong- just different. Also, some people have more disposable income than others. For some $500 is a lot of money, and for some it isn't. Some people put higher value on the money saved, and some put a higher value on the item purchased- even if their income is the same. Thank goodness we are all different, or what a boring world it would be.

    This thread is rapidly taking the direction of the LN bronze thread. I'm off to the shop to build stuff.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    I'm having a hard time seeing how the economics of this work. I get the idol worship thing, guys buying one of everything a company makes, just because they love the company that much.

    Having said that, at the MWTCA meet I attended a month or so ago, there were dozens of 45s complete in the box with all the blades, even the Stanley screwdriver for $200-250. The Veritas costs $400 clams, and only comes with one blade. The Stanley 45 came with 7 beading blades, 10 plow and dado blades, a slitting blade, a tonguing blade and a sash blade. Assuming all those blades were available on a Veritas, that would set you back $380, for a total of $780!!!! I've never used the Veritas, and maybe it is all that and a bag of chips, but the 45 is pretty comfortable to use in my opinion.

    I just don't see it.
    Seems to be a better use of funds than the $250 coffee grinders talked about in the off topics forum.

  3. #63
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    Malcolm,

    Your point is well taken, and hopefully you are not referring to me. If you are, I don't believe I was trying to be cool, as clearly I already am.

    People can buy anything they want, to include router planes that don't even work properly when sold new. It's your money, you can spend it as you like. I was merely trying to inquire as to why someone would buy something new costing 4X what an older model would cost. Having been in the tool making world for a while, it is surprising to me. My take aways are:

    There is a perception that newer is better
    Very minor tweaks to a tried and proven design are considered desirable
    Some people only want to buy new tools
    Some people do not care to tune old tools
    Some people really like Veritas stuff, regardless of how much it costs.

    Happy planing, old or new!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Malcolm,

    Your point is well taken, and hopefully you are not referring to me. If you are, I don't believe I was trying to be cool, as clearly I already am.

    People can buy anything they want, to include router planes that don't even work properly when sold new. It's your money, you can spend it as you like. I was merely trying to inquire as to why someone would buy something new costing 4X what an older model would cost. Having been in the tool making world for a while, it is surprising to me. My take aways are:

    There is a perception that newer is better
    Very minor tweaks to a tried and proven design are considered desirable
    Some people only want to buy new tools
    Some people do not care to tune old tools
    Some people really like Veritas stuff, regardless of how much it costs.

    Happy planing, old or new!
    Where exactly is it that you can buy new Stanley 45 or 55 and all the special irons that go in them? I can't find a supplier for these (other than ebay for example or maybe craiglist, etc - but they are not new). If I was looking through the Lee Valley catalog, or went to a woodworking show and saw one in action, I just might be impressed and buy one, all the way totally unaware that there even was a Stanley 45 or 55 or whatever. The point being, people know where to find LV tools, they like them, and they continue to buy them. The Stanley tools are no longer marketed (that i can find) so, unless I know what rock to look under, I'm not going to find one, certainly not one ready to use out of the box new.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Y

    There is a perception that newer is better
    Very minor tweaks to a tried and proven design are considered desirable
    Some people only want to buy new tools
    Some people do not care to tune old tools
    Some people really like Veritas stuff, regardless of how much it costs.

    Happy planing, old or new!
    It may not be exhaustive, but certainly a pretty good list.

    For me:

    - Newer is better is not always true, of course (look at Samsung Note 7), but it has generally been true in the case of Veritas products (this is what brand loyalty is all about)
    - Only want to buy new tools that work -- and I prefer to spend time on building things including sometimes tools, but not on improving oldies to work (just not my tastes). Paul sellers made his own blades for the spokeshaves he built; I would buy that cutter from Veritas if I were to build a copy of his
    - I buy Veritas tools only if they make economic or functional sense even money in general is not an issue for me (if it were, I would have picked up a different hobby). I would not buy for instance http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/Pag...21&cat=1,42936

    The new combo plane? No try, no buy. But it looks good so far from the videos out there. As for the 45, 55, etc., they may work well for some of the woodworkers but I would not touch them for sure. The difference in the costs is insignificant to me.

    Simon

  6. #66
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    Pat,

    I guess new is a relative term, but like I mentioned in an earlier post, there was no shortage of combinations planes at the latest MWTCA meet I went to. You can also find them at Brown's Auction or any of the regional MWTCA meets. Failing that, tool dealers like my pal Patrick Leach always has them in stock. The ones that are still in the box always have the cutters with them. Box my 45 and 55 both have complete cutter sets and all the bells and whistles. Cam rest, long and short rods, screwdriver, etc.

    I've never done anything to any of my combination planes but sharpen the cutters which I presume you will have to do with the new one as well. You can really get a deal on a good combination plane if you are ok with an off brand. There was a maker called Siegley who operated out of Wilkes Barre that made a very nice plane that always sells CHEAP. There are others. So, you don't have to leave Ft Living Room if you don't want to, but if you do, just go to a tool meet and see what's available.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Failing that, tool dealers like my pal Patrick Leach always has them in stock.
    Indeed. He just sold me a 55 with all 52 original cutters (from c. 1910, later versions came with up to 55 cutters). I decided I finally had to see what all the fuss was about with that plane :-).

    Patrick Leach authored the oft-cited Stanley Blood and Gore site, and operates as supertool.com. You can find his Email listed there. The way it usually works is that you either ping him and see if he has what you want, or you subscribe to his monthly emails and keep an eye out for stuff that looks interesting.

    As I said in a previous post in this thread you will pay the full market price, but in exchange you get an accurately-described tool that's been looked over by somebody who knows their business and will stand behind it.

    The other used-tool dealer I've dealt with is Pete himself, who sold me a saw set. I've had good experiences with both (I'd previously bought a #20 and some Jennings bits from Patrick Leach). There are several other reputable ones out there as well.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 07-25-2017 at 5:30 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Malcolm,

    Your point is well taken, and hopefully you are not referring to me. If you are, I don't believe I was trying to be cool, as clearly I already am.

    People can buy anything they want, to include router planes that don't even work properly when sold new. It's your money, you can spend it as you like. I was merely trying to inquire as to why someone would buy something new costing 4X what an older model would cost. Having been in the tool making world for a while, it is surprising to me. My take aways are:

    There is a perception that newer is better
    Very minor tweaks to a tried and proven design are considered desirable
    Some people only want to buy new tools
    Some people do not care to tune old tools
    Some people really like Veritas stuff, regardless of how much it costs.

    Happy planing, old or new!
    Not at all directed at you- in fact, it was actually more directed at a guy on another site that got his panties all in a wad over people who buy fancy new planes, to the point that people had to tell him to chill out. This thread was headed similar directions, and two recent threads went down the tubes over whether or not there was hype in bronze planes. Your comments were all professional and factual, and your opinion is valued.

    So here are my reasons for buying the new plow-
    - I already had the small plow and all the blades offered. Although I will probably keep it, there was the option to sell it and just keep the large plow, offsetting the cost.
    - I got a huge bonus- in fact, I got a few bonuses, and I have this thing when I get a bonus- I always get a new tool... and there I was at Handworks with all those tools. I had actually intended to buy one of those frame saw kits and kerfing tool, but Veritas won... as did Tools for Working Wood and a few others.
    - I wanted something more than the small plow offered. I'm restoring an old home, and I need to make mouldings with large beads. My wooden beading plane has seen better days.
    - They offered the storage box free if you bought at the show. This was a VERY small factor in my decision to purchase- but I was going to build a box for it, and now I don't have to, so it was a small plus.
    - They also offered free shipping if you bought at the show. Again- very small deciding factor, but it all adds up. I would have bought regardless, but I'm literally trying to write all my thoughts down here.
    - One of the biggest buying decisions was that it was all tight, solid, held where you set it, and was easy to set up. I don't want to start WWIII here, but the 45 I had, and at least some of the ones I tried out had a wee bit or even a lot (some better than others) of slop in the whole setup. Also the way the thumb screw clamps on the rod is not as good as the way Veritas locks the fence in place. That was a big factor.
    - The thing cut so good. I mean it was a dream to use. THAT was probably my biggest buying decision was actually using the thing. It glided through cuts, and I made many cuts. Sure- a lot of that is blade sharpness, but it wasn't just that- it was that there was no wiggle, no flutter, no feeling that the blade was loosening- it just made a perfect clean cut very easily, and was easy to set up.
    - It felt good in the hand. I actually didn't expect this because it looks awkward, but it felt great.
    - Yes, I admit, a small portion of my buying decision- like maybe 1%- was that it was just such a beautiful tool. I hate myself, but I admit it. I felt the designer deserved my money. But more than that- part of working with hand tools for me is the joy of using a finely crafted tool to make something finely crafted. Take my Ron Bontz saw for example- I could buy a much cheaper saw, but every time I use that saw, and look at the craftsmanship, it inspires me- I mean LITERALLY inspires me- to do better with my work- to explore my creative side. There is value in that for me.
    - The larger reeding blades were a sell for me because I want that for some upcoming builds.
    - It's new. I could buy a 45 or 55 on eBay, and hope it was in as good of shape as it was advertised, and not like the LN plane I bought on eBay that had been dropped on the heel and not disclosed, or the "perfect condition" moulding plane that I got which had a huge chunk out of the side not shown in photos.... or I could buy a new one that works, and that also has a good chance of having additional blades/accessories available in the future.
    - If I decide I want another blade (yes- within the limits of what is offered) I can order it, rather than having to search eBay for it.
    - Veritas quality. I have a number of their tools, and I don't know of any that I haven't liked.
    - The black painted parts are actually a sell for me because it is easier to care for than bare iron. That's one reason I like the Veritas bevel down planes over the Lie-Nielsens. Rust is a constant battle for me. Less metal showing = less to worry about rusting.
    - For me it cost $500 for the plane, the free box, free shipping, and the extra blades that I bought as well. Now, I believe you said in an earlier post that you can get a 45 or 55 for around $250 complete with blades. That is not at all what I have seen on eBay. Even without that, the $500 was a fair price to me for what I got- and I think that's going to be up to the individual. There will be a lot of folks that say $500 could buy a nice router table. I don't blame them for their choice- it's an individual thing. I'm in it for the joy of using hand tools. (And I do already have a router table with a great fence.)
    - I was understanding that the 55's holows and rounds and profile blades would fit this. If that turns out not to be the case, I'm still happy, but part of my decision was that I could get those blades later on. I'm hoping so. I don't need them enough to go drop $1000 for a new set of hollows and rounds, but maybe if I could buy some extra blades for $10 or $15 each, that would be good.

    I guess that's all. Please if any of the above reads with bravado or smart-alek tones, read it again- it wasn't intended as such. Sometimes written words can come across the wrong way. I literally just sat down and typed out the reasons for buying the large plow. Also, my daughter stood there the entire time I am writing this putting different costumes on me. (She likes to play dress-up.) To say the least, I was distracted. I'm now dressed as a construction worker, which is much better than the princess.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Schweizer View Post
    - For me it cost $500 for the plane, the free box, free shipping, and the extra blades that I bought as well. Now, I believe you said in an earlier post that you can get a 45 or 55 for around $250 complete with blades. That is not at all what I have seen on eBay. Even without that, the $500 was a fair price to me for what I got- and I think that's going to be up to the individual.
    I just paid $400 incl shipping for a *55* with all 52 blades from a reputable dealer (Patrick Leach, Pete's old partner in Independence Tool).

    I'd be surprised if a 45 costs much more than the $250 that Pete cited. Ebay prices can be a bit detached from market reality.

    I think you're a bit sensitive about this. As everybody here probably knows by now, I'm basically an LV brand whore and will probably end up buying the combo plane, and I haven't seen anybody say anything objectionable in this thread.

    As everybody also knows I can't resist trying to reverse-engineer both tools and business models, and I can't help but suspect that LV began development of that plane when the used market was a bit "frothier" than it is now
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 07-25-2017 at 7:37 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    I just paid $400 incl shipping for a *55* with all 52 blades from a reputable dealer (Patrick Leach, Pete's old partner in Independence Tool).

    I'd be surprised if a 45 costs much more than the $250 that Pete cited. Ebay prices can be a bit detached from market reality.

    I think you're a bit sensitive about this. As everybody here probably knows by now, I'm basically an LV brand whore and will probably end up buying the combo plane, and I haven't see anybody say anything objectionable in this thread.

    As everybody also knows I can't resist trying to reverse-engineer both tools and business models, and I can't help but suspect that LV began development of that plane when the used market was a bit "frothier" than it is now
    That snippet (of mine) read way different than intended- I meant that price was not what I had seen, and so that wasn't what figure I based my buying decision on. I probably would have bought it anyway, but I did think the 45 was more like $400 with blades, and 55 around $500. I checked out Patrick's lot at the show, but getting a price was too difficult- people lined up to ask prices.

    "LV brand whore"- that made my day! Also- I admit to needing to chill out. The whole new versus old thing gets...well... old. All is good. I'm an unfaithful whore- I play LV and LN equally. One day they are going to find out my two-timing ways.

  11. #71
    As a point of info Patrick, when I bought my #45 new in the box complete with screwdriver and spare nickers still in the stapled shut manila envelope, the dealer Phil Whitby still had 4 more NIB and others in less than perfect condition san box. Popularity of the #45 seems to have gone through a lot of ups and downs over the past 25 years along with the prices.
    Dave Anderson

    Chester, NH

  12. #72
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    Not too many years ago Woodcraft in Dublin, CA was selling the Clifton version of the Stanley #45, list price was $600.

    I believe that store has been closed more than a decade.

    Some folks like myself have no problem tinkering with an old tool to make them perform. Some folks prefer a no hassle solution. If my inclination was less toward tinkering, then maybe more of my tools would have been purchased new instead of as cheaply as possible.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 07-26-2017 at 12:29 PM. Reason: wording & spelling
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Pat,

    I guess new is a relative term, but like I mentioned in an earlier post, there was no shortage of combinations planes at the latest MWTCA meet I went to. You can also find them at Brown's Auction or any of the regional MWTCA meets. Failing that, tool dealers like my pal Patrick Leach always has them in stock. The ones that are still in the box always have the cutters with them. Box my 45 and 55 both have complete cutter sets and all the bells and whistles. Cam rest, long and short rods, screwdriver, etc.

    I've never done anything to any of my combination planes but sharpen the cutters which I presume you will have to do with the new one as well. You can really get a deal on a good combination plane if you are ok with an off brand. There was a maker called Siegley who operated out of Wilkes Barre that made a very nice plane that always sells CHEAP. There are others. So, you don't have to leave Ft Living Room if you don't want to, but if you do, just go to a tool meet and see what's available.
    Sure, I get it Pete. My post was only intended to point out that many, maybe most, would buy the LV purely because it is new and available. Not intending to sat there aren't other options, just they are relatively obscure. Maybe, for example, folks who watch TV woodworking or pick up their woodworking from magazines, etc. They probably don't know or maybe care so much about vintage tools.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Not to many years ago Woodcraft in Dublin, CA was selling the Clifton version of the Stanley #45, list price was $600.

    I believe that store has been closed more than a decade.
    It closed in 2013, literally months before I moved in just down Dougherty. Probably just as well for my bank account.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    It closed in 2013, literally months before I moved in just down Dougherty. Probably just as well for my bank account.
    My mind must be slipping. For some reason it seemed to be before my wife and I moved to Washington from the Bay Area.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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